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Pieces of Peace posted:But is the unarmed damage still garbage because one of the Paizo devs (SKR?) has an incredibly stupid hate-on for monks being "overpowered," like every 14 year old in 2000 who couldn't properly analyze the math? The conversion notes state: quote:One way to convert such a character is to have the converted monk’s unarmed strikes deal an amount of damage equal to that dealt by a one-handed operative melee weapon with an item level no greater than the monk’s level. That gives us a progression of: pre:Level 1: 1d4 Level 7: 2d4 Level 9: 3d4 Level 12: 4d4 Level 14: 6d4 Level 16: 6d6 Level 17: 10d4 Level 19: 8d6 quote:In addition, the unarmed strikes deal an extra amount of damage equal to that dealt by the trick attack class feature (see page 93) of an operative of a level equal to the monk’s level. Unlike an operative, the monk doesn’t need to succeed at a skill check to deal this extra damage, but he can deal it only with his unarmed strikes. pre:Level 1: 1d4 + 1d4 Level 3: 1d4 + 1d8 Level 5: 1d4 + 3d8 Level 7: 2d4 + 4d8 Level 9: 3d4 + 5d8 Level 11: 3d4 + 6d8 Level 12: 4d4 + 6d8 Level 13: 4d4 + 7d8 Level 14: 6d4 + 7d8 Level 15: 6d4 + 8d8 Level 16: 6d6 + 8d8 Level 17: 10d4 + 9d8 Level 19: 8d6 + 10d8 quote:The monk is proficient with his unarmed strikes and thus receives the Weapon Specialization feat with them at 3rd level. pre:Level 1: 1d4 + 1d4 Level 2: 1d4 + 1d4 + 1 Level 3: 1d4 + 1d8 + 1 Level 4: 1d4 + 1d8 + 2 Level 5: 1d4 + 3d8 + 2 Level 6: 1d4 + 3d8 + 3 Level 7: 2d4 + 4d8 + 3 Level 8: 2d4 + 4d8 + 4 Level 9: 3d4 + 5d8 + 4 Level 10: 3d4 + 5d8 + 5 Level 11: 3d4 + 6d8 + 5 Level 12: 4d4 + 6d8 + 6 Level 13: 4d4 + 7d8 + 6 Level 14: 6d4 + 7d8 + 7 Level 15: 6d4 + 8d8 + 7 Level 16: 6d6 + 8d8 + 8 Level 17: 10d4 + 9d8 + 8 Level 18: 10d4 + 9d8 + 9 Level 19: 8d6 + 10d8 + 9 Level 20: 8d6 + 10d8 + 10
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Oct 24, 2017 13:29
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But how does that compare to just a Guy With A Weapon?
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Oct 24, 2017 13:31
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Comrade Gorbash posted:The length of that "inspirations list" really screams "we have no cohesive direction on this project." And looking at the finished product hey what do you know. Yeah. If you're going to do inspirations like that, it's best to keep it short. Otherwise you end up with 'Zombie pirates hack the catholic space nazis in the middle of a dinosaur laser fight.' A long collection of Stuff but with no actual coherence.
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Oct 24, 2017 13:31
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Alien Rope Burn posted:Presented without comment. Wait, so they're listing both the John Carter movie and the Barsoom books?  Also all of the Honorverse. Which seems weird since starship combat is the least focus of the game compared to those books. A friend also had a massive laugh about Jack Chalker being recommended reading. Also Doctor Who. In general. Not any specific episode or season, just all 50 years of Doctor Who Great recommendation Paizo And you do it again with both just blanket recommending Final Fantasy and Phantasy Star. Wait, Wendig's Star Wars Aftermath?  I'm amused that Pacific Rim is being recommended when power armor doesn't seem to be all that good without houserules. Wait, both Macross and Robotech? Come on here.
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Oct 24, 2017 13:47
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I...suddenly wonder if they crowdsourced a recommended sci-fi game reading list from their forums/playtesters. Because that would explain a lot.
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Oct 24, 2017 13:49
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Night10194 posted:Yeah. If you're going to do inspirations like that, it's best to keep it short. Otherwise you end up with 'Zombie pirates hack the catholic space nazis in the middle of a dinosaur laser fight.' A long collection of Stuff but with no actual coherence. I don't have a picture of it handy, but the Eclipse Phase References list is a good juxtaposition. It's only one page versus the two in Starginger, and in functional terms it's actually even shorter than that, because every entry takes at least two lines. If they mention a novel series, they call out the specific books in it (e.g. Kim Stanley Robinson's Mars Trilogy takes five lines on its own, vs one in the Starfinger list). It's also a lot more cohesive, and has en entire non-fiction section. I have yet to run across a work in that I can't point to part of Eclipse Phase and say "here's where this informed their choices and direction." In fairness the EP list might be too exhaustive, but considering the detail and depth of the final product and how niche the genre is, there's more justification for that. Cooked Auto posted:Wait, so they're listing both the John Carter movie and the Barsoom books? Comrade Gorbash fucked around with this message at 14:08 on Oct 24, 2017 |
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Oct 24, 2017 13:58
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Zereth posted:But how does that compare to just a Guy With A Weapon? I am by no means any kind of expert in charOp, but here's my quick analysis of the converted Monk versus a Starfinger Soldier (with a two-handed melee weapon): pre:Monk Soldier Level 1: 1d4 + 1d4 average 5 1d12 average 6.5 Level 2: 1d4 + 1d4 average 5 1d12 average 6.5 Level 3: 1d4 + 1d8 +1 average 8 1d12 +3 +2 average 11.5 Level 4: 1d4 + 1d8 +2 average 9 1d12 +4 +2 average 12.5 Level 5: 1d4 + 3d8 +2 average 18 1d12 +5 +2 average 13.5 Level 6: 1d4 + 3d8 +3 average 19 1d12 +6 +2 average 14.5 Level 7: 2d4 + 4d8 +3 average 26 2d12 +7 +3 average 23 Level 8: 2d4 + 4d8 +4 average 27 1d12 +8 +3 average 24 Level 9: 3d4 + 5d8 +4 average 34 2d12 +9 +3 average 25 Level 10: 3d4 + 5d8 +5 average 35 2d12 +10 +3 average 26 Level 11: 3d4 + 6d8 +5 average 39 4d12 +11 +3 average 40 Level 12: 4d4 + 6d8 +6 average 43 4d12 +12 +3 average 41 Level 13: 4d4 + 7d8 +6 average 47.5 4d12 +13 +3 average 42 Level 14: 6d4 + 7d8 +7 average 53.5 7d12 +14 +4 average 63.5 Level 15: 6d4 + 8d8 +7 average 58 7d12 +15 +4 average 64.5 Level 16: 6d6 + 8d8 +8 average 65 7d12 +16 +4 average 65.5 Level 17: 10d4 + 9d8 +8 average 73 10d12 +17 +4 average 86.0 Level 18: 10d4 + 9d8 +9 average 74.5 10d12 +18 +4 average 87.0 Level 19: 8d6 + 10d8 +9 average 82 13d12 +19 +4 average 107.5 Level 20: 8d6 + 10d8 +10 average 83 13d12 +20 +4 average 108.5
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Oct 24, 2017 14:14
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Kavak posted:You know what that giant list of inspirations is reminding me of? City of Violence?
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Oct 24, 2017 14:14
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Cooked Auto posted:A friend also had a massive laugh about Jack Chalker being recommended reading. That's some serious Magical Realm territory.
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Oct 24, 2017 14:43
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It's extremely telling that they didn't even bother a sentence on how any of these things would inspire your Starfinger adventures. That would have at least forced them to think about the list, even narrow it down.
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Oct 24, 2017 14:44
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Mitama posted:It's extremely telling that they didn't even bother a sentence on how any of these things would inspire your Starfinger adventures. That would have at least forced them to think about the list, even narrow it down. Now I really want to challenge one of the authors of this book to come up with a Starfinger adventure inspired by A Wrinkle in Time or The Three-Body Problem or The Dispossessed.
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Oct 24, 2017 14:50
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Thundarr the Barbarian is on that list. I mean, yes, it has future wizards with no morality, sword guys who sword good, and strange yet pointless new species but Thundarr is so absolutely nothing like Pathfinger that Im having a hard tim understanding a single design element that could inspired by it much less how youd even run an episode as an adventure.
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Oct 24, 2017 15:03
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Alien Rope Burn posted:
Maybe they didn't get that it isn't media that inspires them personally, but things that actually fit in your setting.
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Oct 24, 2017 15:06
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Did the sun sword make it to the PF item list? Because that and Ariel being a well-educated spellcaster was probably the long and the short of their inspiration. And the Thundarr in Space show that didn't make it through development.
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Oct 24, 2017 15:09
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Solarians can make sun weapons with their mind and get a magic hilt to upgrade it so there's the missing chunk of the Solarian inspiration, it's Thundarr! Also probably that other planetary romance saturday morning show where the magic crystal split into a dark sword and light sword.
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Oct 24, 2017 15:13
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You only need 50 more XP to level? Alright, before we call it a night, let’s grab something from The Deck of Encounters Set One Part 8: The Deck of Horses, Insects, and Imps 49: Bee-Sting Labeled as a "monster" encounter. A PC's horse is stung repeatedly by a wasp, and they need to make the 2nd Edition version of riding checks to stay on and not get scraped up. I'm not sure if this is amusingly banal or just incredibly lame, but I'll give them the benefit of the doubt. I mean, at least it wouldn't take much game time away from more interesting stuff. Keep. 50: Grass Fire The PCs are on a grassy plain, with a stream nearby. The PCs see a large cloud of black smoke on the horizon, then a herd of wild horses galloping straight towards them in a panic! They need to divert the horses or be trampled. And then a grass fire is headed their way as well, though for that one at least there’s the stream at hand (complete with reeds to breathe through. I guess it wouldn’t be too smokey up above?) I’m a little hesitant because I know nothing about stampedes or brush fires, but I guess all I’d really be looking for is for the PCs to improvise some clever or reasonable-sounding reaction. So yeah, okay, keep. 51: Unbroken Leaving town, the PCs run into a horse standing on the side of the road. It’s shoed but has no other gear. It’ll allow itself to be fed, but will break and run at any sign of a saddle or rope. If they don’t do that, it’ll start following around the PCs, and if they treat it well for three weeks, it’ll choose a PC to adopt and let them ride it bareback. It’ll also become incredibly loyal, to the point of fighting to save a person. Who doesn’t like a cool fantasy horse sidekick encounter? Keep. 52: The Swarm Traveling through a tropical plain, the PCs end up in the path of a swarm of army ants. Basically they need to run fast, or else utilize some good AOE effects that won’t set the plains afire and get them into even more trouble. The most likely scenario is that the PCs do indeed run, which isn’t particularly interesting in play. However, even if the danger is easily evaded, you can still describe the devastation in the ants' wake, which could be some good environmental flavor. Keep. 53: Buzzed In the forest, giant wasps attack! Before the PCs can react! And by the way, “this encounter is designed for cockier PCs who believe that no ‘normal’ monster could possibly hurt them.” If they destroy the wasps without anyone being paralyzed and dragged off, “the DM should have more wasps attack. The encounter should force them to go into the wasp’s hive to rescue at least one of their number. The hive will contain at least 3 more giant wasps, regardless of how many the PCs have already faced. Furthermore, this experience will teach them the folly of regarding natural threats as unchallenging.”  Hey, you know what’s a challenging combat encounter? INFINITE NUMBERS OF P.S. Pass. 54: Malevolent Watcher The PCs feel like they’re being watched, and will notice a large raven “eying them hungrily.” It’s a polymorphed imp whose wizard master has died and who is traveling around causing mischief. It’ll turn into a spider in the PCs’ sleeping bags, fly over them cawing ominously, use suggestion to turn them against each other, and try to steal their smaller magic items. Not completely unreasonable, but it seems annoying to the PCs and annoying for me to run. I’d prefer a more concrete scenario rather than just “an imp starts loving with the PCs, lol.” I’ll pass. Dallbun fucked around with this message at 13:29 on Oct 25, 2017 |
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Oct 24, 2017 15:19
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Bravestar is the show you wanted, you idiots. The main character is a druid, his sidekick is a shotgun toting robo horse and his best friend is an irish person with the magic ability to not burn to cinders in their desert setting. Also in no shape or form other than plot amnesia is Starfinger like Big O. Cast in the name of god ye guilty, Pathfinger.
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Oct 24, 2017 15:21
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unseenlibrarian posted:Solarians can make sun weapons with their mind and get a magic hilt to upgrade it so there's the missing chunk of the Solarian inspiration, it's Thundarr! Oh god, Blackstar. I managed to forget that, somehow.
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Oct 24, 2017 15:32
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So for this DnD deck of bad encounters, what are you supposed to do if the party is totally out of that difficulty range or way under it?
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Oct 24, 2017 15:40
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We had some fun on IRC with the game of "Starfinger is [item from list] meets [item from list]". Try it out yourself! In any case, I'm pretty sure recommending The Black Hole is an act of ignorance or cruelty.
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Oct 24, 2017 15:50
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Barudak posted:So for this DnD deck of bad encounters, what are you supposed to do if the party is totally out of that difficulty range or way under it? The cards are labeled as low, medium, or high danger, so there's that. I'm just not usually specifying which they're for in the description.
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Oct 24, 2017 15:51
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Alien Rope Burn posted:We had some fun on IRC with the game of "Starfinger is [item from list] meets [item from list]". Try it out yourself!
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Oct 24, 2017 15:55
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Yeah, that's a pretty broad list of stuff that seems more "These are things I know that are sci-fi," and less "here's a way to run cool adventures." Off the top of my head, given the mechanical conceits, you could definitely list Creatures of Light and Darkness as a way to inspire things - it had that blend of familiar mythology/weird space madness, an actual interesting conflict idea (what if death isn't a thing in space? Amnesiac gods re-assembled from corpses to serve in cyclical symbolic war to balance out the universe.), and all the bullshit d20 baggage allowing modeling of Temporal Fugue via wizard-bullshit. Of course, this would require concrete themes and design goals beyond "hey, uninspired D&D in space would be profitable."
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Oct 24, 2017 16:03
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Comrade Gorbash posted:Maybe but it's a far lesser crime than including Chalker. I'm blissfully unaware of Chalker's work.
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Oct 24, 2017 16:04
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Speaking as someone who enjoyed his writing as a teenager, you're not missing much. He's one of the writers you grow out of, like Orson Scott Card.
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Oct 24, 2017 16:06
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I mean they've got Lovecraft poo poo in their game but then they don't actually cite any of his stories as inspiration, just some bullshit RPG setting. And I mean with that mess of crap there's zero reason not to just include The Color out of Space or The Whisperer in Darkness unless you're the sort of dipshits who include Lovecraft and haven't read it. e: Or cite the loving Dream Quest, by far his best work. Feinne fucked around with this message at 16:14 on Oct 24, 2017 |
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Oct 24, 2017 16:11
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Barudak posted:Also in no shape or form other than plot amnesia is Starfinger like Big O. Cast in the name of god ye guilty, Pathfinger. The Big O is a show which is fundamentally about the mystery of the gap(not the store). Starfinger is a game about ignoring the mystery of the gap (not the store) because it’s really just a setting conceit.
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Oct 24, 2017 16:19
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I can't decide if my favorite citation is them citing their own work, Dresden Codak or the Pern series, comma, in which the hero rapes the heroine in the middle of book one without consequence.
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Oct 24, 2017 16:20
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Barudak posted:Thundarr the Barbarian is on that list. I mean, yes, it has future wizards with no morality, sword guys who sword good, and strange yet pointless new species but Thundarr is so absolutely nothing like Pathfinger that Im having a hard tim understanding a single design element that could inspired by it much less how youd even run an episode as an adventure. Barudak posted:Bravestar is the show you wanted, you idiots. The main character is a druid, his sidekick is a shotgun toting robo horse and his best friend is an irish person with the magic ability to not burn to cinders in their desert setting. Theme, style, and genre only matter insofar as they can be quantified and throw in to the mix.Thus you get a setting that is a big sack of stuff that doesn't actually blend together, like what Marx said about the French peasantry, except elves with lightsabers.
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Oct 24, 2017 16:22
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unseenlibrarian posted:Solarians can make sun weapons with their mind and get a magic hilt to upgrade it so there's the missing chunk of the Solarian inspiration, it's Thundarr! Wasn't that a power some of the characters had in Tenchi Muyo too? Can I use have Starfinger Waifu Adventures?
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Oct 24, 2017 16:25
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I think the thing that bothers me about that list the most is that the ordering changes between books and tv shows. Author, single series of author’s books Single TV Show or Movie, Head Writer
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Oct 24, 2017 16:28
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Mors Rattus posted:I can't decide if my favorite citation is them citing their own work, Dresden Codak or the Pern series, comma, in which the hero rapes the heroine in the middle of book one without consequence.
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Oct 24, 2017 16:33
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I am laughing really hard at Dune being on the inspiration list because where, Paizo, where the gently caress did you ding-dongs cram Dune in there? I can almost guarantee it's because their space monster manual is gonna have a sandworm in it, and that's it.
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Oct 24, 2017 16:41
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Dallbun posted:53: Buzzed Listen here you pissant master of so-called "Dungeons!" I'm a brash young fighter with a chip on my shoulder and I declare henceforth my immunity the damage of "normal" monsters! What were you going to attack me with? A wolf? P'shaw I say! Why I'll whip my weight in wolves for breakfast and if any bard wishes, for an extra electrum, he may toss in a wolverine! Bring forth a Gambado or better if you wish to do anything other than dull the common teeth of a pathetic real animal on my regally tough hide. Cock of the walk, that's me, and though I've declared it at each gathering of us adventurers til you're no doubt sick to death of hearing so, I also state for all present that I regard natural threats as unchallenging, and I firmly and unequivocally challenge any hoisters within earshot to merely try to find purchase on this proud gentleman's petard. I shall save you the trouble: I AM UNHOISTABLE. Post script for the reader: Additionally, I state now for the edification of God, these gentle adventurers present, and the great state of Colorado that I determine, in my expert and well-regarded es-timation, that a wasp the size of a bear is a normal animal, and I'll thrash soundly above and below the shoulders any man that challenges this assertion. Be warned, all! theironjef fucked around with this message at 17:03 on Oct 24, 2017 |
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Oct 24, 2017 16:42
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Lynx Winters posted:I am laughing really hard at Dune being on the inspiration list because where, Paizo, where the gently caress did you ding-dongs cram Dune in there? I can almost guarantee it's because their space monster manual is gonna have a sandworm in it, and that's it.
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Oct 24, 2017 16:45
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The list feels like they realized they had to write it when they were done with the book so they just started jotting things down that seemed vaguely appropriate to get the book done. None of thay list except the part where they reference Pathfinder feels like an actual inspiration for this clunky book.
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Oct 24, 2017 16:49
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Lynx Winters posted:I am laughing really hard at Dune being on the inspiration list because where, Paizo, where the gently caress did you ding-dongs cram Dune in there? I can almost guarantee it's because their space monster manual is gonna have a sandworm in it, and that's it. Funny enough, this is pretty much the logic that was used in throwing random stuff into D&D. Throw a coeurl in there and call it a displacer beast, sure. Hostile V posted:Dresden Codak because that's actually accurate inspiration what with both being sprawlingly messy works that are incapable of containing a whole product within itself, inability to see their own bad ideas in anything less than a congratulatory back-patting light, a small devoted following of turbonerds and the same kind of author-fetish focus towards being the One True Heir to the Holy Rolling Empire that DC has towards a science lady losing her limbs and becoming a hot cyborg waifu.
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Oct 24, 2017 16:51
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Kavak posted:You know what that giant list of inspirations is reminding me of? Books Written by Octavia Butler Clay's Ark Parable of the Sower Parable of the Talents Xenogenesis Trilogy (Aw come on Louis, might as well list them) Written by Tom Clancy Clear and Present Danger Debt of Honour Executive Order Patriot Games Rainbow Six The Cardinal of the Kremlin The Hunt for Red October The Sum of All Fears Without Remorse Written by James Ellroy American Tabloid Black Dahlia, The (why he switches to this notation style here is a mystery for the ages) Big Nowhere, The L.A. Confidential White Jazz Written by William Gibson Count Zero Mona Lisa Overdrive Neuromancer (See buddy? You can list out the names of trilogies if you try hard and believe in yourself!) Written by David Morrell Brotherhood of the Rose Covenant of the Flame, The Fifth Profession, The Fraternity of the Stone, The League of Night and Fog, The Written by John Sanford Certain Prey Easy Prey Eyes of Prey Mind Prey Night Prey Rules of Prey Secret Prey Shadow Prey Silent Prey Sudden Prey Winter Prey Bird of Prey Cautious Prey Scent of Prey (quick, when did I start making these up) Written by Neal Stephenson Snow Crash Diamond Age, The Crytonomicon [sic] (also, if you're gonna use the alphabetizing notation, you might as well alphabetize!) Written by Andrew Vachss Blossom Blue Bell Born Bad Choice of Evil Dead and Gone Down in the Zero Everybody Pays False Allegations Flood Footsteps of the Hawk Hard Candy Sacrifice Safe House Shella Strega Dhalgren, by Samuel R. Delany Maximum Black, by Tim Bradstreet Rising Sun, by Michael Crichton Streetlethal, by Steven Barnes Trouble and her Friend, by Melissa Scout Comic Books Haha no I'm kidding, I'm done. theironjef fucked around with this message at 17:07 on Oct 24, 2017 |
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Oct 24, 2017 17:01
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They also listed Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy as an inspiration. On the one hand, it's a series that features laughably complex rules that are ignored or mocked or made up on the spot, so it's the most suitable possible inspiration. On the other hand, that seems way too self aware for Paizo
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Oct 24, 2017 17:04
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Halloween Jack posted:Remember that thing I said about how to milquetoast middle-class people with no real beliefs, "Singularity" just means that in the future technology will make everything awesome? Dresden Codak is kind of the exhibit A. It's going to be even better to be a well-off white guy in the future.
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