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ManofManyAliases posted:They hedged brexit, because the value of that credit may have dissipated by that time. Lol do you actually believe this, or did someone pay you to say it?
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Oct 25, 2017 22:46
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https://i.imgur.com/tLk11gM.gifv
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Oct 25, 2017 22:50
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SomethingJones posted:This is something I don't understand at all - if they created Foundry to build the game then charged them for the license... where did Foundry get the £2 million from? Did they go into £2 million debt right off the bat to develop a game for the brother of the guy who runs the studio? But then didn't CIG buy Foundry outright further down the line anyway? The IP is actually in the books of CIG UK not Foundry 42 Ltd. Basically, by moving things around it is easier to introduce actual bank loans. Banks would not normally lend a company money to buy shares from the directors or IP from the directors or companies owned by the directors. This was a summary of the activity of CIG UK specifically that strips out the inter-group transactions: Sources of funding: £710k Long Term Loans £290k Short Term Creditors £200k Shareholder Investment [1] £650k Sale of IP to USA company ============ £1.85m Total Outgoings: £440k purchase of Foundry 42 Ltd from Erin Roberts and others [2] £ 50k Admin Expenses £1.36m IP purchase from USA company/Chris Roberts? ============ £1.85m Total
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Oct 25, 2017 22:51
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The "hedging Brexit" excuse originated on Reddit btw and it is complete and total bollocks. They are so reliant on the tax credit every year that they had to take out a loan 6 months before it was due in their account. Anyone with the slightest modicum of intelligence can see that. The fact that they took it out in the UK meaning we all got to see it in the accounts implies the company is up to their loving eyes in debt.
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Oct 25, 2017 22:53
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Taintrunner posted:So wait it’s fake booze you can only drink in-game. I thought they’d do something cool like partner with a local brewer to give their special members a bottle they all crack open and toast when the final game drops or something Maybe they were going to partner with Nant Whisky for a deal like that, but you know, opportunities like that don't come along often, and rarely last long enough to get to the end of the Star Citizen deathmarch.
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Oct 25, 2017 22:55
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SomethingJones posted:Economic effects from Brexit won't happen until after a general election in 2020 (according to Cambridge University) and that's IF Brexit happens at all. This had NOTHING to do with Brexit. Right answer, wrong time. Brexit caused an immediate drop in value of the Cable after the results of the vote that tanked it to around 1.3 from 1.65. They took out the loan with Coutts at around 1.21, and the current value hasn't risen above 1.3 since June 2016. Secondary effects that LSE and Cambridge are talking about happen during the first wave of companies leaving the UK to retain access to the Single Market, which is the really funny bit, and the hit on the agricultural system, which from a logistics point of view has been *insane* for years. I'm not taking the bet against the Sterling until after the options run out for Labour/whoever having the bollocks to ask for a second vote. The Cable is important because of the dollar being a reserve currency, so everything tends to get measured against what you're buying on the open market, like fuel. Brexit happened, costs almost immediately went up, but the real pain is going to happen when those import/export markets suddenly disappear. But suggesting that Coutts was a hedge against Brexit. drat, that's weak. SomethingJones posted:They are so reliant on the tax credit every year that they had to take out a loan 6 months before it was due in their account. Anyone with the slightest modicum of intelligence can see that. The fact that they took it out in the UK meaning we all got to see it in the accounts implies the company is up to their loving eyes in debt. Word. Hav fucked around with this message at 23:04 on Oct 25, 2017 |
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Oct 25, 2017 22:56
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Lol so one brother gets a chunk of money for the rights to the ip, shouldn't the rights to the ip goto the company he was working for when it was created ? The other brother sells one of the companies to still another of the nested companies Don't forget they back paid themselves for the years of work 'creating the ip' that they then sold to the company for profit Jesus Christ this is so incestuous and has to be illegal somehow
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Oct 25, 2017 22:59
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shrach posted:The IP is actually in the books of CIG UK not Foundry 42 Ltd. Basically, by moving things around it is easier to introduce actual bank loans. Banks would not normally lend a company money to buy shares from the directors or IP from the directors or companies owned by the directors. This is nuts. Ah, so CIG UK paid for the license. CIG UK was created and was immediately sold a license from CIG US or whoever owns the IP. I don't understand why it needs a license, and I don't understand where it gets the money from to buy a license - was CIG UK created to take out a loan to buy the license? Which one of the seventy gazillion companies are Foundry contracted to?
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Oct 25, 2017 23:04
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Hav posted:Right answer, wrong time. Brexit caused an immediate drop in value of the Cable after the results of the vote that tanked it to around 1.3 from 1.65. They took out the loan with Coutts at around 1.21, and the current value hasn't risen above 1.3 since June 2016. This is the good poo poo right here. The Brexit vote was on the 23rd, I couldn't be arsed looking up the date of the Coutts loan but I wondered for a second if CIG had some amazing insight into how the vote would turn out and decided to take out a loan before the value of the pound dropped, but then that makes no sense either because they still have to pay interest on the loving loan MoMA you moron.
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Oct 25, 2017 23:07
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Blue On Blue posted:Lol so one brother gets a chunk of money for the rights to the ip, shouldn't the rights to the ip goto the company he was working for when it was created ? It isn't actually known (at least I don't think it is) where the money for the license went. It just sort of, well you know, it just sort of went *POOF* and it came from a company in the UK that just sort of like, well it just sort of appeared one day and gently caress knows where it got the 2 million from Incestuous
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Oct 25, 2017 23:13
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big nipples big life posted:Mass Effect Yeah, that too. Though Andromeda was pretty disappointing, Mass Effect as a franchise is still very relevant today.
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Oct 25, 2017 23:22
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Mr.Tophat posted:When I think of space games, I think of shuffling ever so slightly closer at regular intervals to people waiting for buses and placing bets on how many shuffles (I call them micro-aggressions) I can make before they shuffle away or get mad at me I used to like to spice things up at bus stops. I'd pull out my handgun and randomly choose another commuter to re-enact the bullet dance scene from Pale Rider until the police would turn up and spoil things by yelling out "Put the gun down and step away" and "Put your hands in the air and turn around" Spontaneous role playing is a dying art, because of all this political correctness. Society really has gone to hell in a hand-basket.
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Oct 25, 2017 23:26
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SomethingJones posted:It isn't actually known (at least I don't think it is) where the money for the license went. It just sort of, well you know, it just sort of went *POOF* and it came from a company in the UK that just sort of like, well it just sort of appeared one day and gently caress knows where it got the 2 million from This is called Hollywood accounting, which happens to be something Ortwin seems to be skilled in. Move the money around to make sure that only the right people get to keep it.
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Oct 25, 2017 23:27
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SomethingJones posted:This is nuts. Ordinarily IP is not something you want in your accounts. An asset on your balance sheet is not an expense in your profit and loss account that you can reduce your income with. It just sits on your balance sheet and I'm not going to look at the tax allowances allowed, I suspect it's nothing in this situation. I'm not sure how to explain this without sending people to sleep but by moving the IP between companies it will actually crystallise the amounts and create chargeable events. Assume things are at cost. One of the US companies could have made a profit but has also spent £1.35m on legal fees, writing, editors for a Squadron 42 script. It can't claim that £1.35m as an expense because it is an IP asset. It can sell this asset to the UK for £1.35m, so now they can crystallise those £1.35m in costs. The income and expenditure match for no net effect. They then spend £650k buying the rights for US distribution and well, a US accountant will have to handle that one but there's probably some way to get relief on that in the US. Meanwhile the UK has no real sales, just money from America. So it's easy to adjust the money from America such that the £650k sale of the IP in the UK is offset against expenses.
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Oct 25, 2017 23:28
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Heh. These are getting really dumb. I remember the last one that looked like a bottle of perfume, and turned out to be a bottle of brandy or something, seemed very awesome because it looked like CIG was going to give away some cool in-theme mercy to its peeps. I was going to be impressed! Then it turned out to just be some dumb as poo poo jpeg or dlc model, and it immediately became trite. This looks like more of the same. It’s like if Bethesda thanked all of its players by opening up a pay system for user mods giving you an Alto Wine (sp?) if you bought Skyrim 20 times at full $59.99 price point. “This wine, why, this is your wine, dovakin!” The courier says as he hands it to you.
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Oct 25, 2017 23:29
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SomethingJones posted:This is the good poo poo right here. The Brexit vote was on the 23rd, I couldn't be arsed looking up the date of the Coutts loan but I wondered for a second if CIG had some amazing insight into how the vote would turn out and decided to take out a loan before the value of the pound dropped, but then that makes no sense either because they still have to pay interest on the loving loan MoMA you moron. A few hundred grand? You guys are so loving dense to think that CIG is that blatantly in the red in a country that highly values consumer protection. By UK law, this type of loan couldn't even be granted if CIG weren't solvent for at least one year (due to the floating charge).
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Oct 25, 2017 23:32
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The Titanic posted:Heh. These are getting really dumb. If that was the only perk I'd agree with you. But how can you put value on a "special preview" of the new ship to buy? Hell, they might even give the black card backers an 100$ discount!!!
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Oct 25, 2017 23:33
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MinorInconvenience posted:... it's why all smart people loving hate lawyers. I hate lawyers, therefore..............
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Oct 25, 2017 23:33
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shrach posted:Ordinarily IP is not something you want in your accounts. An asset on your balance sheet is not an expense in your profit and loss account that you can reduce your income with. It just sits on your balance sheet and I'm not going to look at the tax allowances allowed, I suspect it's nothing in this situation. Riiight. So they sell it so that it isn't just sitting on the books. That answers my question.
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Oct 25, 2017 23:34
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SomethingJones posted:It isn't actually known (at least I don't think it is) where the money for the license went. It just sort of, well you know, it just sort of went *POOF* and it came from a company in the UK that just sort of like, well it just sort of appeared one day and gently caress knows where it got the 2 million from Let me put it this way IF when things finally crash and burn , crobberts and his confidants don't end up with very fat bank accounts over all these years of creative accounting they really are stupid as a bag of dirt I'm not saying they should be rich , certainly not when it's ill gotten money couched on the hopes and dreams of desperate nerds being lied to for over 6 years What im saying is if they are still broke after all the whales are milked and the money dried up because it was all spent on 'developement' well then Chris is an incredible imbicle and incompetent both at the same time I bet at least Ben Will make some money off this by selling the urinal cakes used in the LA office to Clifford aka Miku .... piece by piece
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Oct 25, 2017 23:37
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hot balls man no homo posted:nothing says big spender quite like a fake tophat and monocle along with a real tee shirt with a space ship on it. Except the real t-shirt says on the front "I spent >$1000 on a computer game" On the back it says "KICK ME"
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Oct 25, 2017 23:38
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ManofManyAliases posted:A few hundred grand? You guys are so loving dense to think that CIG is that blatantly in the red in a country that highly values consumer protection. By UK law, this type of loan couldn't even be granted if CIG weren't solvent for at least one year (due to the floating charge). You don't need to be in the red at the bank to be up to your loving neck in debt MoMA. You take out a loan 6 months ahead of a tax credit so that you DON'T go into the red and gently caress yourself and your company.
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Oct 25, 2017 23:39
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Blue On Blue posted:this is so incestuous and has to be illegal somehow Yeah, no. This happens all the time. You just don’t hear about it because those other times didn’t include a company that’s crowdfunded $150m and produced almost nothing of note. The last company I worked for was owned by one guy that had nineteen separate corporate entities encompassing two unrelated industries. His comptroller and CFO basically told me that generating business between the entities looked good on a balance sheet for the mostly hands-off owner, so they took every opportunity they could to generate more companies that never actually did anything. Last I heard, they started an IT consultancy that was responsible only for the other entities but billed them like it was completely separate so they could brag about it generating x millions in revenue its first year.
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Oct 25, 2017 23:40
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this is the best post this thread has ever had
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Oct 25, 2017 23:43
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Blue On Blue posted:IF when things finally crash and burn , crobberts and his confidants don't end up with very fat bank accounts over all these years of creative accounting they really are stupid as a bag of dirt They'll each (the big 3) have a million in the bank by now having produced absolutely and precisely gently caress all and having contributed nothing whatsoever to gaming as an industry, gaming as a hobby or gaming as a community.
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Oct 25, 2017 23:44
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcTPqiIAWCA
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Oct 25, 2017 23:49
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David Cronenberg presents Alpha 3.0 http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x666ggn
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Oct 25, 2017 23:50
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ManofManyAliases posted:A few hundred grand? You guys are so loving dense to think that CIG is that blatantly in the red in a country that highly values consumer protection. By UK law, this type of loan couldn't even be granted if CIG weren't solvent for at least one year (due to the floating charge). I know you'd like to imagine that somehow, Chris and Sandi and Ben and Jared and Tony and Erin are really, really nice people, who care about the backers that gave them millions. Here's the thing, and I'm trying not to be mean, just as real as possible: they don't give a gently caress about anything but money. The product that you'll get delivered in 3 weeks is an absolute travesty and that's going to be it. They'll continue the Live support for the game, promising additional content and increased player counts, but this is it; 3.0, in the state at which is arrives, is going to be Star Citizen. That's it. When that happens, when the dreams are no longer just accessible in the mind but available to be played on the keyboard, that's when things are going to go into an absolute loving frenzy. Chris Roberts and everyone else in his little tower understand this. They 100% understand. I'm sorry your dream space game is going to be an absolutely janky piece of poo poo with almost no content but what the players create for themselves. I really am. As a backer, I'd liked to have played a fun PC space game, too. But this is it. This is what you're going to get. And it's just, it's just awful. It's really, really loving bad.
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Oct 25, 2017 23:51
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Rugganovich posted:I used to like to spice things up at bus stops. I'd pull out my handgun and randomly choose another commuter to re-enact the bullet dance scene from Pale Rider until the police would turn up and spoil things by yelling out "Put the gun down and step away" and "Put your hands in the air and turn around" Sage wisdom
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Oct 25, 2017 23:51
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A Neurotic Corncob posted:David Cronenberg presents Alpha 3.0 Ha ha ha. Holy poo poo. That's kinda creepy.
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Oct 25, 2017 23:52
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A Neurotic Corncob posted:David Cronenberg presents Alpha 3.0  No one will ever figure out that this is actually a Star Citizen video, or who uploaded it
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Oct 25, 2017 23:52
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Rad Russian posted:The fact that Robert Space Industries and Roberts Space Industries are both registered companies in this money shifting scam should set off alarm bells too. Licensing their own IP to themselves is just the tip of the iceberg. 17+ is somewhat odd for a software company. In other industries it is common to have a company that holds the IP, such as trademarks, and then licenses those out to the corporate business and franchisees. If you ever see a fast food restaurant commercial it will say something like: Arby's IP Holders, Inc. or Subway IP, LLC. Sometimes this happens because when a family run chain gets taken over as part of the deal the family gets to keep the IP/namesake and licenses that out as a way for the family to continue earning on what they founded.
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Oct 25, 2017 23:53
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ManofManyAliases posted:think that CIG is that blatantly in the red Yes. Its' been obvious for a while.
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Oct 25, 2017 23:54
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Even the simplest concept like turnover isn't straight forward for the UK group. The parent company, Cloud Imperium Games UK Ltd and Foundry 42 Ltd, basically have zero turnover. It gets zeroed out in the group accounts. The only company that has actual "turnover" is Roberts Space Industries International Ltd. The one with the £1 balance sheet that is really a non-trading company. But even they are uncomfortable with this being turnover. It's a non-trading company and the accounts make different references to it. This behaviour (calling your headline turnover, "costs recharged in the period") is not in any way standard. I've never even heard of this term before in an actual accountancy setting. It's strange but another first for CIG I guess. 
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Oct 25, 2017 23:57
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Even the most conservative burn rate estimates have them operating in the red and just lol if you think they are operating anywhere near the conservative estimates.
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Oct 25, 2017 23:59
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Mr.Tophat posted:To be clear I have never married anyone, except this thread Does this mean I can demand you make more money so we can buy more booze jpegs?
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Oct 25, 2017 23:59
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Variable 5 posted:Yeah, no. This happens all the time. You just don’t hear about it because those other times didn’t include a company that’s crowdfunded $150m and produced almost nothing of note. Oh sure I understand it to a point The company I work for has the same thing going to a smaller degree But cig is a totally different beast in that they've produced nothing of note for any of the companies , but they're selling and buying from each other it's going out of style The massive pay days to the executive team should be a serious red flag warning bit they somehow keep trucking along making 20 or 30k a day - theagent you should have your sources blow the funding chart wide open , out of all the unbelievable poo poo going on the funding chart is the stinkiest
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Oct 25, 2017 23:59
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A Neurotic Corncob posted:David Cronenberg presents Alpha 3.0 
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Oct 26, 2017 00:00
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https://twitter.com/RobertsSpaceInd/status/923310950752702470
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Oct 26, 2017 00:04
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TheAgent posted:...things are going to go into an absolute loving frenzy. Chris Roberts and everyone else in his little tower understand this. They 100% understand. Having followed this thing fanatically for so long, taken a long break and coming back to it, I have to say that honestly that's exactly what it looks like. There is nothing that CIG have produced that tells me anything to the contrary. It looks and smells completely hosed, devs say it's hosed and I've done the devil's advocate thing with folks who live and breathe code and they all say it's hosed - so there is no way that Chris and co don't know this and don't know what this means. Have you heard anything at all about Squadron 42, I had a PM elsewhere a month or so ago from like a 4th hand source saying that it was essentially canned
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Oct 26, 2017 00:06
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