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I doubt a disk on a turtle is a planetoid? Unless the book doesn't mention that any of the settings are on some extraordinary thing. Did Spelljammer integrate Dark Sun and that gothic horror prison realm settings?
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Nov 3, 2017 15:57
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Angrymog posted:Nah. Spelljammer specifically says you can have whatever cosmology you like going on inside the spheres. Oh, that’s cool. E: It says that right there in the paragraph I only skimmed, darn it. DalaranJ fucked around with this message at 16:30 on Nov 3, 2017 |
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Nov 3, 2017 15:57
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gradenko_2000 posted:I feel like it's gauche to mention Shadow of the Demon Lord again, but in the context of a game with a really strong default setting to play in ... Shadow of the Demon Lord. Heh, I haven't even heard many of these. Shadow of Demon Lord has an interesting name, so to speak.
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Nov 3, 2017 15:58
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JcDent posted:I doubt a disk on a turtle is a planetoid? Unless the book doesn't mention that any of the settings are on some extraordinary thing. It was stated somewhere that the path to Athas was lost, and/or its crystal sphere was impermeable to spelljamming passage techniques. Ravenloft didn't fit into Spelljammer proper either, being a demiplane lurking somewhere in the deep Ethereal, rather than an alternate Prime Material plane/crystal sphere like the other settings.
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Nov 3, 2017 16:07
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Valatar posted:
This is a weird thing to say considering he built the company from nothing, it made boatloads of money while he was in charge, started going downhill as soon as he lost sole control, and was revived when he returned from the West Coast. He didn't "leave" the company in the hands of people who started to run it into the ground, but was forced to because he lost control through stock majorities. That having been said, I loved Spelljammer and this post is already really making me regret selling off my box set and War Captain's Companion. I wonder how much they are on ebay...
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Nov 3, 2017 16:47
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By the way, how does Mindjammer compare to Starfinger and Spelljammer?
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Nov 3, 2017 16:47
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Xotl posted:This is a weird thing to say considering he built the company from nothing, it made boatloads of money while he was in charge, started going downhill as soon as he lost sole control, and was revived when he returned from the West Coast. He didn't "leave" the company in the hands of people who started to run it into the ground, but was forced to because he lost control through stock majorities. and lot of the company's nosedive is due to the Lorraine Williams being a non-gamer who didn't understand that playtesting is important (She saw it as goofing off on the clock), kept trying to unsuccessfully use TSR to increase the profitability of her Buck Rogers ownership, and kept pushing out way products than the company could reasonably sell.
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Nov 3, 2017 16:52
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Robindaybird posted:and lot of the company's nosedive is due to the Lorraine Williams being a non-gamer who didn't understand that playtesting is important (She saw it as goofing off on the clock), kept trying to unsuccessfully use TSR to increase the profitability of her Buck Rogers ownership, and kept pushing out way products than the company could reasonably sell. Actually it was due to the owners before her literally embezzling the poo poo out of the company. Lorraine Williams as the sole downfall of TSR as The Terrible Non-Gamer is a meme that should have died a long time ago.
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Nov 3, 2017 16:59
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Robindaybird posted:and lot of the company's nosedive is due to the Lorraine Williams being a non-gamer who didn't understand that playtesting is important (She saw it as goofing off on the clock), kept trying to unsuccessfully use TSR to increase the profitability of her Buck Rogers ownership, and kept pushing out way products than the company could reasonably sell. Well, that's later material, and as Valatar points out, a lot of it is second and third-hand. IIRC, no TSR staffer has ever confirmed that there was a playtest ban, for example (although I'd like to see if I missed it). I'm talking more about the era where, while Gygax was still working there, the Blumes took control of the company through their stock majorities and effectively removed Gygax from any real management power. That's when the crazy nepotism and ill-fated expansions into needlepoint and such came into play. I just found it weird that Valatar seemed to lay this at the feet of Gygax, when getting hosed over by people you thought were your friends is, if technically a business failing, not really reflective of one's overall management skills. Xotl fucked around with this message at 17:10 on Nov 3, 2017 |
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Nov 3, 2017 17:00
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JcDent posted:I doubt a disk on a turtle is a planetoid? Unless the book doesn't mention that any of the settings are on some extraordinary thing. you can spelljam to Athas but it's really hard for reasons and anyway Athas is extremely hostile to its own inhabitants, so people unfamiliar with the setting would likely be devoured in short order (either for their metal equipment or for defiling with spells or for being unable to cope with an environment where potable water is close to non-existent). plus clerics would be 100% turbo-hosed as it's central to Athas' cosmology that there are no deities that grant spells on Athas. basically you can do it, but it's way more trouble than it's worth and it's probably a suicide mission anyway. Ravenloft has even weirder rules about how you get there but they all boil down to "GM fiat" so if the GM decides you can spelljam to Ravenloft, go for it! only don't because it's a trap because the cosmology of Ravenloft says there's literally no way to leave Ravenloft unless "GM fiat" allows it. so Ravenloft is its own little private Hell (possibly literally, the books never 100% clarify this) and you never ever want to go there unless you're specifically playing a game in Ravenloft (which you also shouldn't do for other reasons).
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Nov 3, 2017 17:04
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Kurieg posted:They also brought back multiclassing, which means that almost every single class defining ability requires level 18, 19, or 20, which is where the game's bounded accuracy starts to break down. I'm also reasonably certain that no published adventure actually goes that high. And yet Spycraft solved this problem over 10 years ago by putting each class's core ability at level 1 and saying 'you only get one core ability, ever'. It's probably what frustrates me most about D&D -- every problem it has has long since been solved in some other game, but because the player base hates change it never benefits from innovation.
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Nov 3, 2017 17:14
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Xotl posted:Well, that's later material, and as Valatar points out, a lot of it is second and third-hand. IIRC, no TSR staffer has ever confirmed that there was a playtest ban, for example (although I'd like to see if I missed it). I'm talking more about the era where, while Gygax was still working there, the Blumes took control of the company through their stock majorities and effectively removed Gygax from any real management power. That's when the crazy nepotism and ill-fated expansions into needlepoint and such came into play. I just found it weird that Valatar seemed to lay this at the feet of Gygax, when getting hosed over by people you thought were your friends is, if technically a business failing, not really reflective of one's overall management skills.
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Nov 3, 2017 17:14
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Freaking Crumbum posted:
The fact that "Space Sargasso full of haunted Spelljammer ships in low orbit over Ravenloft" isn't already a full adventure series is a direct example of how the industry has failed us.
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Nov 3, 2017 17:17
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Robindaybird posted:and lot of the company's nosedive is due to the Lorraine Williams being a non-gamer who didn't understand that playtesting is important (She saw it as goofing off on the clock), kept trying to unsuccessfully use TSR to increase the profitability of her Buck Rogers ownership, and kept pushing out way products than the company could reasonably sell. Lorraine Williams probably made a lot of mistakes, but bear in mind that neither Gygax and Arneson nor the leading developers at TSR were paragons of cutting-edge design paired with shrewd business sense. The D&D developers didn't need any prodding from Williams, nor the Blumes, to sideline Basic in favour of AD&D, despite Basic being consistently successful and the '83 Mentzer-edited "Red Box" being their best-selling product of all time! There's this view of TSR as a geek ashram where books were lovingly crafted by gamers, for gamers. If you read interviews with some of the developers you'll notice a surprising degree of sour grapes and snobbishness of the kind that you might only expect to see from fans. Williams is the target of a great deal of geek paranoia about being looked down upon by non-gamers and so on.
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Nov 3, 2017 17:18
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potatocubed posted:And yet Spycraft solved this problem over 10 years ago by putting each class's core ability at level 1 and saying 'you only get one core ability, ever'. drat, Spycraft did and fixed this? Everything I've heard about this game really gives me a good impression aside from the fact that it's really crunchy. How does Spycraft do monster creation/generation?
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Nov 3, 2017 17:26
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gently caress yeah Spelljammer! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQQdCrGp_8o
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Nov 3, 2017 17:28
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JcDent posted:Elven cat: cat, but more so. Al-Qadim had winged cats, and Red Steel had Marine Cats who were both awesome... Al-Qadim posted:Greater Winged Cat RED STEEL Monstrous Compendium posted:Marine Cat
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Nov 3, 2017 17:30
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theironjef posted:The fact that "Space Sargasso full of haunted Spelljammer ships in low orbit over Ravenloft" isn't already a full adventure series is a direct example of how the industry has failed us. while I agree that's an awesome premise, one thing Ravenloft didn't need was even greater lack of thematic focus in the setting. Ravenloft worked best when it was focused on one domain full of gothic horror, with a thinly veiled Count Dracula knock-off. when it became a melting pot setting where loving Dragonlance and Dark Sun and Forgotten Realms and Greyhawk and Hollow World and also random children's fairy tales and also inaccurate analogues for Earth's real historical figures all kind of wound up dumped in Ravenloft for vague misdeeds, the whole setting stopped working. it would have worked better if it was written as "here's a rules supplement that allows you to add themes of Gothic Horror to your existing campaign settings; also here's Barovia & Castle Ravenloft as an example for how this should fit together". instead it tried to be literal Hell for all of AD&D's worst villains and ended up being an un-scary, uninspired mess.
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Nov 3, 2017 17:32
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gradenko_2000 posted:I feel like it's gauche to mention Shadow of the Demon Lord again, but in the context of a game with a really strong default setting to play in ... Shadow of the Demon Lord. Ptolus is actually really good. I ran several long campaigns based around it using Arcana Evolved, and the sheer amount of things to do around that city is mind-blowing.
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Nov 3, 2017 17:33
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Halloween Jack posted:Williams is the target of a great deal of geek paranoia about being looked down upon by non-gamers and so on. It's the businessman/craftsman divide, filtered through lenses of nostalgia, hero-worship, sexism, etc.. Plus the Buck Rogers flogging was absolutely true IIRC.
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Nov 3, 2017 17:35
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Mr. Maltose posted:Actually it was due to the owners before her literally embezzling the poo poo out of the company. Lorraine Williams as the sole downfall of TSR as The Terrible Non-Gamer is a meme that should have died a long time ago. People prefer to tell stories where they can blame everything on a single person, especially when the truth is much more complicated. Hatred is a lot more enjoyable when you don't have to spread it among multiple targets.
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Nov 3, 2017 17:56
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Humbug Scoolbus posted:Ptolus is actually really good. I ran several long campaigns based around it using Arcana Evolved, and the sheer amount of things to do around that city is mind-blowing. Yeah I was being a little tongue-in-cheek there. Ptolus is actually the pinnacle of "a setting that I can play around in", which is why I brought it up when responding to JcDent, but it kinda requires playing with d20/3.5 as the real rub, unless you're willing to do a lot of conversion work.
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Nov 3, 2017 17:59
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Kavak posted:It's the businessman/craftsman divide, filtered through lenses of nostalgia, hero-worship, sexism, etc.. Plus the Buck Rogers flogging was absolutely true IIRC. The Buck Rogers stuff apparently sold pretty well, the issue there is that TSR (owned by Williams) paid royalties to the rights holder (Williams). That sort of double dipping is pretty sketchy. The way she ended up in charge of TSR in the first place was equally shady. Gygax hired her to get the company out of a disastrous situation created by the Blume's mismanagement and malfeasance. She did that, and then Gygax managed to get the Blumes ousted... at which point they reneged on an agreement with Gygax and sold their controlling shares to Williams. It's a pretty cut throat move. When she subsequently sued Gygax's later company and drove them out of business, that pretty much ensured Gygax would say no good word about her ever again. However, it's worth noting she did in fact get money flowing back into TSR despite it being severely in debt, and kept it profitable right up until the mid-90s. By all accounts the business side of TSR was run reasonably well, despite the iffy royalties stuff, and the disconnect between the business side and product side is a common one. A lot of the loudest bitching comes from ex-TSR designers who failed to catch on with WotC and other companies after TSR went down, and generally for good reason when you look at the specific names. The simple fact is, most of the designers who like to blame the stagnation of the product line on Williams being a non-gamer haven't exactly set the industry on fire with innovation since. A number of them are only now popping back up because they can make money on the same old stuff thanks to the OSR thing. It's an easy sell in gamer circles to say "oh no, I had all these great ideas but that lady held me back because she looked down on games." Williams does bear a lot of responsibility for the screw up that finally brought TSR down - she misread the market when GW and WotC started making unheard of profits and tossed out a bunch of ill conceived product that didn't sell. That's hardly a unique mistake , and in a lot of ways TSR was more the first victim of the CCG bubble than anything else. But she very much created a situation that turned an understandable screw up into an existential crisis for TSR.
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Nov 3, 2017 18:00
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Comrade Gorbash posted:However, it's worth noting she did in fact get money flowing back into TSR despite it being severely in debt, and kept it profitable right up until the mid-90s. By all accounts the business side of TSR was run reasonably well, despite the iffy royalties stuff, and the disconnect between the business side and product side is a common one. A lot of the loudest bitching comes from ex-TSR designers who failed to catch on with WotC and other companies after TSR went down, and generally for good reason when you look at the specific names. Still, she probably saved TSR from being stripped to the baseboards by a family of good ol' grognards, and the company under her leadership had a good long run of sustained success. She doesn't deserve the opprobrium she gets (which is mostly axe-grinding with a thick layer of misogyny)
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Nov 3, 2017 18:11
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MonsieurChoc posted:gently caress yeah Spelljammer! Not the youtube link I expected for "gently caress yeah, Spelljammer!" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHGz5r-b1do
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Nov 3, 2017 18:16
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Kavak posted:It's the businessman/craftsman divide, filtered through lenses of nostalgia, hero-worship, sexism, etc. Freaking Crumbum posted:while I agree that's an awesome premise, one thing Ravenloft didn't need was even greater lack of thematic focus in the setting. WFRP is in many ways the setting Ravenloft should be, but I want to saw the huge ornamental wargame details off of everything. Halloween Jack fucked around with this message at 18:21 on Nov 3, 2017 |
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Nov 3, 2017 18:16
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Lord Soth being in Ravenloft was the worst, yeah.
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Nov 3, 2017 18:30
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The not-Dr.Frankenstein and his monster is my personal worst liked, check my posts if you want a brief review.
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Nov 3, 2017 18:35
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Halloween Jack posted:I never played Ravenloft, but it sure looks that way to me. Ravenloft never needed to be more than a background for a Hammer Horror style of D&D. The setting only needed to be fleshed out to a degree that expanded on that premise--like a not-Egypt so that you can have mummy's tombs. It sure as poo poo doesn't need a spooky not-Japan. when White Wolf had Ravenloft, they did a whole lot to try to make the setting coherent, including putting the really out of place stuff out on islands (or excising them entirely) and actually make the different domains interact in a reasonable manner, not always successfully but it definitely shaped up during that time. It's admittedly my favorite of the D&D settings due to the some of the NPCs and having some of the better book lines, but the early incoherence and even for the time railroading in lot of it's early adventures did it no favors. But still Il Auk and Forlorn are both plagued by 'why would the PCs want to go THERE?'
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Nov 3, 2017 18:41
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How much text did they waste on such 'avoid at all cost' regions?
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Nov 3, 2017 18:45
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Freaking Crumbum posted:you can spelljam to Athas but it's really hard for reasons and anyway Athas is extremely hostile to its own inhabitants, so people unfamiliar with the setting would likely be devoured in short order (either for their metal equipment or for defiling with spells or for being unable to cope with an environment where potable water is close to non-existent). plus clerics would be 100% turbo-hosed as it's central to Athas' cosmology that there are no deities that grant spells on Athas. Eberron is maybe even harder to reconcile with Spelljammer due to Eberron's highly unusual cosmology. Khorvaire is probably better prepared than most settings to deal with a Spelljammer ship that manages to make its way out there, though. Could do it as a series of crystal spheres within crystal spheres, I suppose, each one much bigger on the inside than it is on the outside.
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Nov 3, 2017 18:50
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Horrible Lurkbeast posted:The not-Dr.Frankenstein and his monster is my personal worst liked, check my posts if you want a brief review. nearly every domain outside Barovia fell into the "but what do the players DO here?" problem. you've got places like: * Bluetspur where the entire domain is eminently hostile to having players even wander around (something dumb like 10d6 lightning bolts strike randomly every minute your outside) and if you manage to find a cave to hide in, they're actually hidey-holes for a bunch of vampire illithids which will completely gently caress up all but the most epic level party in a matter of seconds. so you can't wander around outside, there's no cities or villages or civilization to interact with, the random monsters are epic level motherfuckers, there's no cool ruins or dungeons to explore, and oh also you can't leave once you enter because the setting fiction says nobody can leave a particular domain without extreme GM fiat. so you wander into a barren death-world and basically just tick off the rounds until you get a TPK. * Some random stone-age domain, the name of which I can't recall. The Dreamlands maybe? the premise is that the entire domain is this temperate forest/prairie where bubbles of "dream stuff" float around except of course they're really nightmares and if you touch one you get zapped into the nightmare and you might never find your way out, or the way out might dump you in another setting, or in another timeline, so basically if your whole party doesn't touch the exact same one your character is functionally dead. also the only civilization are nomadic tribesmen that don't believe in things like object permanence (because anyone can get zapped into a nightmare bubble at any time) and they don't bother to create any kind of complex civilization. I don't even think there was a domain lord here? just a hosed up place that you get trapped in and then you might as well just roll up new characters. like, you can tell they were really throwing poo poo at the wall by the end of Ravenloft, but most of it didn't even pass the litmus test of "okay, but why would PCs even go here/what kind of adventures do they have/what's the point of this whole zone"/
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Nov 3, 2017 18:53
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Horrible Lurkbeast posted:How much text did they waste on such 'avoid at all cost' regions? everything but Barovia were words wasted on such regions.
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Nov 3, 2017 18:54
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Cythereal posted:Eberron is maybe even harder to reconcile with Spelljammer due to Eberron's highly unusual cosmology. Khorvaire is probably better prepared than most settings to deal with a Spelljammer ship that manages to make its way out there, though. We could call them the Firmament and place the planets within the spheres' outer edges, so that they all rotate cleanly and- oh wait, that's Ars Magica
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Nov 3, 2017 18:54
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Mors Rattus posted:We could call them the Firmament and place the planets within the spheres' outer edges, so that they all rotate cleanly and- Eberron has an entire series of orbiting planes, though, whose orbits can be altered like when the orcs exiled Xoriat and weird poo poo happens whenever a plane becomes coterminus with Eberron. Likely as not, a Spelljammer ship visiting Khorvaire would probably be immediately impounded by House Lyrandar for violating their monopoly on aerospace craft, which sounds like a great start to a story.
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Nov 3, 2017 18:58
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I'm fairly certain that Kieth Baker wrote something about how Eberron would work with Spelljammer, but I can't remember the specifics.
Evil Mastermind fucked around with this message at 19:06 on Nov 3, 2017 |
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Nov 3, 2017 19:02
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Did anyone ever try to reconcile Eberron and Planescape?
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Nov 3, 2017 19:04
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Didn't know that Eberon is so weird. I only knew it as "the one setting where you can play a robot (TURBO DRACULA) and there are magitek trains!"
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Nov 3, 2017 19:19
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Kavak posted:Did anyone ever try to reconcile Eberron and Planescape? Nerds on /tg/ have developed two or three alternate 40K settings, nerds love poo poo like that.
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Nov 3, 2017 19:20
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Freaking Crumbum posted:nearly every domain outside Barovia fell into the "but what do the players DO here?" problem. you've got places like: Hah so for those who haven't seen why a vampire illithid is so loving savage, they got to energy drain on every tentacle attack and were effectively impossible to kill. Like from the statline I recall they literally still regenerate after being reduced to dust by a disintegrate, it ain't no thing to them. And not like 'oh they come back in some number of days, w/e'. Their passive regeneration still happens so the kindest possible outcome for you is you have their health/regeneration rounds before they're back for more.
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