|
Aumanor posted:by the time they decided to breach wall Rosa they've lived among the Walldians for five years, had ample time to see that the propaganda they've been fed was bullshit and had perfect understanding of the consequences of breaking the second wall would have. Even well adjusted teenagers that grow up in safe and nurturing environments often don't fully understand the consequences of their actions.
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2017 22:36
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 19, 2024 23:41 |
|
|
Schwarzwald posted:Even well adjusted teenagers that grow up in safe and nurturing environments often don't fully understand the consequences of their actions. Except they've lived for a year among the refugees and IIRC were taught over the course of their military training about what the conseuences of another wall falling would be. And just to clarify, it's not like I want Reiner to suffer more - I''m not that sadistic. I just don't think that he deserves to suffer any less- he's currently doing the perfect job of punishing himself to the exact extent he deserves.There's no need to pile anthing more on (although I suspect the manga won't be that kind) but any sort of ending where he's redeemed or forgives himself would feel cheep to me. Aumanor fucked around with this message at 23:39 on Nov 7, 2017 |
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2017 22:47
|
|
|
Aumanor posted:Except they've lived for a year among the refugees and IIRC were taught over the course of their military training about what the conseuences of another wall falling would be. They also knew that even if everyone in Paradise died, it wouldn't be the end of humanity - and they knew that if they failed, everyone they know and love back home would be at risk of being tortured/killed if they failed. What would you do as a traumatized teen living a lie among people who you've started to form a connection with, but you know that if you don't betray them, everyone you ever knew from your past, maybe even your entire people could be killed by the Marley if you fail? Even if you did decide to to abandon everything and everyone you ever knew in Marley, you're pretty sure your 'comrades' in the walls would torture you to death if they even found out who you really were. It's not as clear cut a situation for RBA as you're making it out to be. Remember that even without Marley propaganda, the Reiss kingship and the Paradisian military is a corrupt, cruel institution run by sociopaths enforcing a terrible government - the situation may be better post coup, but Zackley is a monster, and Hange (for as fun of a character as she is) is also something of a monster at this point too. Hell I don't think it's too unlikely that Armin ends up falling victim to realpolitik type thinking and going off the deep end in the name of pragmatism. I keep thinking of an interview with Isayama where he talked about how he was planning an Armin and Eren conflict for a later arc, and the issue of how to resolve the Eldian Question seems like a plausible breaking point for them depending on how they've developed off the page.
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2017 00:59
|
|
|
ATP_Power posted:They also knew that even if everyone in Paradise died, it wouldn't be the end of humanity - and they knew that if they failed, everyone they know and love back home would be at risk of being tortured/killed if they failed. bro when i was a teen i knew that genocide was bad
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2017 01:11
|
|
|
ATP_Power posted:
Not really Zackley and the rest of the Military Leadership have been super on the level for the most part. They have bad aspects but they have yet to do anything actually wrong in their leadership.
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2017 01:15
|
|
|
MonsterEnvy posted:Not really Zackley and the rest of the Military Leadership have been super on the level for the most part. They have bad aspects but they have yet to do anything actually wrong in their leadership. Isn't Zackley the guy with the poop torture fetish?
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2017 01:17
|
|
|
Terror Sweat posted:bro when i was a teen i knew that genocide was bad Yeah, me too, but I didn't spend my youth in a military police state where genocide was a fact of life and then shipped out to attack an enemy nation.
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2017 01:20
|
|
|
MonsterEnvy posted:Not really Zackley and the rest of the Military Leadership have been super on the level for the most part. They have bad aspects but they have yet to do anything actually wrong in their leadership. Yeah, when I think of good leadership and government I think of an oppressive absolute monarchy governing though violence and fear, and run at the top by venal corrupt nobility and their crony MPs. As for Zackley, he may be a competent commander, but saying he just has "bad aspects" is underselling him IMO.   
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2017 01:38
|
|
|
Terror Sweat posted:bro when i was a teen i knew that genocide was bad Are you one of those people who hears about people in African villages offering forgiveness for young insurgent soldiers if they come back home and stop fighting and says "gently caress that they should be hanged"
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2017 02:38
|
|
|
The only good Marleyan is a dead Marleyan.
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2017 02:56
|
|
|
ChairMaster posted:Are you one of those people who hears about people in African villages offering forgiveness for young insurgent soldiers if they come back home and stop fighting and says "gently caress that they should be hanged" i mean, if one of those kids killed hundred of thousands of people? maybe?
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2017 03:01
|
|
|
Terror Sweat posted:i mean, if one of those kids killed hundred of thousands of people? maybe? lol
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2017 03:14
|
|
|
Terror Sweat posted:i mean, if one of those kids killed hundred of thousands of people? maybe? I think there's a big difference psychologically between killing thousands of people through a single action that is detached from the killing itself (like knocking down the wall) and directly killing them yourself. The latter implies far more about a person's mindset than the former.
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2017 03:23
|
|
|
Another thing to keep in mind is that the sunk cost fallacy holds enormous power over people. "Marco's already dead, if we run now it's gonna be for nothing" "We've already been here for this many years, imagine what they'd do if we come back right now" "We already broke the wall, we're in for good".
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2017 03:26
|
|
|
One of the core lessons of the story is that the statement "fighting monsters will turn you into a monster" isn't a dire warning, it's part of a listing of side effects. One of the other side effects is "if you live long enough you'll see yourself become the villain." Eren has so far shown an absolute willingness to be a merciless avatar of rage and crush the people who ruined his life. He knows it's turning him evil, but the only peace he can imagine is one where anyone who could hurt him is dead. Either he has it in him to kill the otherwise innocent members of the enemy faction, which would make him exactly as evil as Marley, or he waits for the enemy to kill more of his people before he can kill just the guilty. I'm guessing the plot is going to take a "cycle of hatred" angle, which typically involves a younger generation having to set aside old grudges. "To You, 2000 Years From Now" is the biggest hint towards this, but this would have to be an absolute toilet series if it turns out that nothing is resolved in the main plot and the epilogue shows the newly unified super titan realizing the world's history. AoT basically rules, so I'm probably 100% wrong and I very much look forward to it.
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2017 03:26
|
|
|
You people are forgetting how Berthold, the most level-headed of the warriors and who actually managed to keep it together for the most part, yells "Someone had to do it!" while crying his eyes out. They knew what they were doing was wrong. That was the point: they were losing their loving minds over it. But they had no other options. They felt trapped on every level. As far as they were concerned Paradis was doomed already, and giving up just meant suffering for their families and passing the burden to other children, other Eldian warriors. Defection wasn't a choice. Returning to Marley empty-handed wasn't a choice. Even just giving up and dying wasn't a choice. Their only option was to continue with the mission. After Marcel's death they didn't follow Reiner's call to press on because of his force of personality or because he convinced them of this, they followed him because they knew he was right. All he did was clear away the hesitation, instill in them the conviction that they could still succeed even without Marcel. That they had to succeed.
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2017 03:45
|
|
|
Minion of Freya posted:Eren has so far shown an absolute willingness to be a merciless avatar of rage and crush the people who ruined his life. He knows it's turning him evil, but the only peace he can imagine is one where anyone who could hurt him is dead. We don't know what Eren is thinking.
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2017 03:46
|
|
|
after breaking the wall, I don't think the trio had any choice but to hard commit. they couldn't leave or they'd die; they could defect or they'd dieSchwarzwald posted:We don't know what Eren is thinking. yea and I can't wait to see where he's going with this. the way this is set up makes him look pretty sinister tho for sure
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2017 03:54
|
|
|
Ytlaya posted:I think there's a big difference psychologically between killing thousands of people through a single action that is detached from the killing itself (like knocking down the wall) and directly killing them yourself. The latter implies far more about a person's mindset than the former. tell that to Nuremberg pal
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2017 04:06
|
|
|
Terror Sweat posted:tell that to Nuremberg pal How many 12-year-olds did the Nuremberg trials implicate?
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2017 04:21
|
|
|
Schwarzwald posted:How many 12-year-olds did the Nuremberg trials implicate? Not enough.
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2017 04:44
|
|
|
Schwarzwald posted:We don't know what Eren is thinking. After the insurrection arc he becomes pretty emotionally shallow. He musters rage during fighting, but outside of that he acts chillingly calm compared to how he used to be. The weight of his place and role in the world hits him like a ton of bricks, and it only gets heavier after the basement, but the kind of person he becomes is fundamentally set at that point. I think the single best insight we get into Eren's character is his conversation with Historia before they leave for Shiganshina. "If you encounter Reiner, will you kill him?" "I have to." "Do you want to kill him?" "...I have to. It's not Mikasa's single-minded determination to protect those she cares about, or Armin's struggle against his feelings and conscience while trying to come up with practical solutions to their problems. Eren just can't stop. He has a part to play in something that is much larger than him, a role that was determined since before he was even born, built up by every life sacrificed for his sake, and he's pushed forward by that. There's no easy emotion like rage or fear for him to hang on to, and even guilt isn't something they allow him to dwell in. He has to keep moving forward. He can't help it. And this just blends in thematically with what the Attack Titan is supposed to represent. With what the situation was like for Reiner and the other warriors. And so four years pass, and we reach this moment, in this basement. Eren confronting Reiner. With sinister calm he explains how he's got Reiner figured out, why he did what he did, and when questioned, all Eren has to say for himself is precisely what I just mentioned: he has to do this. He has to be there. He can't help it. So as far as I can tell, this is the same Eren that 3 years ago, while everyone marveled at the ocean, we saw with tears in his eyes fatalistically pointing at the horizon, wondering out loud if killing the enemies across it is how they would finally, truly be free.
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2017 04:57
|
|
|
Conspiratiorist posted:So as far as I can tell, this is the same Eren that 3 years ago, while everyone marveled at the ocean, we saw with tears in his eyes fatalistically pointing at the horizon, wondering out loud if killing the enemies across it is how they would finally, truly be free. That read doesn't really match with Eren's conversations with Falco and grandpa Jaeger, where it seems like he's become far more philosophical about things than he was before the timeskip. Also how do you read what he said to Reiner? Eren says that he wants the same thing as Reiner, and one of the main arcs for Reiner since the skip is about him trying to find a way out of the Warrior cycle for his trainees and I think Eldians more broadly. I don't think Eren's there as an avenger, I think he's trying to turn Reiner and as many Warriors as possible before whatever the Paradisians are planning kicks off. Eren pre-basement and Eren post-basement are very different characters, and I didn't think that what he said at the ocean was something he thought was good, I think he was asking if it was the only option they had. E: Look at how the final page of this chapter sets things up, framing Eren as "the one who opposes pain and discomfort" in contrast to the bloodthirsty maniac Eren that's being portrayed in the play. ATP_Power fucked around with this message at 05:20 on Nov 8, 2017 |
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2017 05:10
|
|
|
In It For The Tank posted:The only good So many potential casualties in this setup, so little time. I can scarcely think of who I want dead first. They'll all so deliciously appropriate! 
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2017 05:20
|
|
|
Reiner's faces have been a highlight since the skip, and the fact that this is a straight crop from the manga with no rearrangement is pretty amazing: Feels like it captures Reiner this arc very well.
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2017 05:22
|
|
|
ATP_Power posted:That read doesn't really match with Eren's conversations with Falco and grandpa Jaeger, where it seems like he's become far more philosophical about things than he was before the timeskip. Also how do you read what he said to Reiner? Eren says that he wants the same thing as Reiner, and one of the main arcs for Reiner since the skip is about him trying to find a way out of the Warrior cycle for his trainees and I think Eldians more broadly. I don't think Eren's there as an avenger, I think he's trying to turn Reiner and as many Warriors as possible before whatever the Paradisians are planning kicks off. Eren pre-basement and Eren post-basement are very different characters, and I didn't think that what he said at the ocean was something he thought was good, I think he was asking if it was the only option they had. I agree with you, so I guess I wasn't very good at conveying what I was trying to say about Eren with my post. He's become philosophical and fatalistic, as opposed to being driven by enmity. He's not acting on what he thinks is the best option, he's acting on what he feels is the only option. What remains to be seen is what that option is. I agree that it's probably to try and save the Eldians.
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2017 05:34
|
|
|
Conspiratiorist posted:I agree with you, so I guess I wasn't very good at conveying what I was trying to say about Eren with my post. If all the other races are made extinct, then the Eldians will be, by default, saved! 
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2017 05:44
|
|
|
Conspiratiorist posted:Returning to Marley empty-handed wasn't a choice. I mean, I understand your point but this turned out to be untrue. The warriors returned not only empty-handed but two shifters down, and the casualties would have been even greater if not for Zeke and Pieck's intervention and Ymir's willing sacrifice. We also see that there is apparently no retribution for the families of the warriors who failed: Reiner's family survives unscathed and Gabi is being groomed for succession despite Reiner's fuckups; Porco was still allowed to inherit the Jaws Titan even though Marcel got eaten by Ymir; Annie's dad is alive and well (if delusional about the fate of his daughter as far as anyone can tell); and Bertolt's dad survived long enough to pass away naturally (assuming there's no funny business with that coma he fell into...).
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2017 06:14
|
|
|
In It For The Tank posted:I mean, I understand your point but this turned out to be untrue. Reiner has been permitted to live while they groom his replacement, who will then ritually consume him.
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2017 06:21
|
|
|
Schwarzwald posted:Reiner has been permitted to live while they groom his replacement, who will then ritually consume him. But the same could be said for Zeke, Pieck, and every other warrior. That's not a punishment, that's business as usual.
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2017 06:25
|
|
|
Falco has a little internal monologue in 96 or 97 I think, where he says Reiner took full credit for their mission failing. Then he won back their respect through proving his undying loyalty and leadership in every new Marleyan military exploit. He basically convinced them to let him keep working because even though he hosed up there was still more for him to accomplish. Had he not won back their trust, they probably would've fed him to another warrior sooner.
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2017 06:45
|
|
|
I'm tired of the talking i wanna see a titan suplex a plane
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2017 10:06
|
|
|
Can someone explain to me wtf that scene with the cart titan lady hugging that dude was all about?
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2017 11:53
|
|
|
Someone please refresh my memory: what was the end of Ymir? Did she ever returned to Marley?
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2017 12:08
|
|
|
Elias_Maluco posted:Someone please refresh my memory: what was the end of Ymir? Did she ever returned to Marley? She went back and willing allowed herself to be eaten. The Jaw Titan dude is the one who ate her.
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2017 12:23
|
|
|
Hate-Senpai posted:She went back and willing allowed herself to be eaten. The Jaw Titan dude is the one who ate her. thank you, I completely forgot about it
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2017 12:25
|
|
|
DaveKap posted:Can someone explain to me wtf that scene with the cart titan lady hugging that dude was all about? She's being friendly and hugging one of the dudes who works with her when she's the Mule Titan. All of the dudes have a crush on her. Since she hugged that one guy, the other dudes are all jealous. Hence, while she did it as a sign of forming solidarity between herself and the people she works with, she inadvertently caused friction. It's very comedic.
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2017 12:26
|
|
|
DaveKap posted:Can someone explain to me wtf that scene with the cart titan lady hugging that dude was all about? If she recognized fancy beard guy, she might've done it to get a message out.
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2017 13:18
|
|
|
She definitely recognized Jean from the battle at Shiganshina.
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2017 14:20
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 19, 2024 23:41 |
|
|
In It For The Tank posted:I mean, I understand your point but this turned out to be untrue. The warriors returned not only empty-handed but two shifters down, and the casualties would have been even greater if not for Zeke and Pieck's intervention and Ymir's willing sacrifice. We also see that there is apparently no retribution for the families of the warriors who failed: Reiner's family survives unscathed and Gabi is being groomed for succession despite Reiner's fuckups; Porco was still allowed to inherit the Jaws Titan even though Marcel got eaten by Ymir; Annie's dad is alive and well (if delusional about the fate of his daughter as far as anyone can tell); and Bertolt's dad survived long enough to pass away naturally (assuming there's no funny business with that coma he fell into...). they didn't return empty handed. maybe they didn't get a titan but they did get information, specifically on the fact that the founding titan is with someone that can't use it properly they could have been instantly fed to the next in line for the power but they were left to live out the rest of their time. that's about as good as reiner could hope for
|
|
#
?
Nov 8, 2017 15:29
|
|