|
SCtrumpHaters posted:Imagine if you will, Yes but does Star Citizen pass the "Oh bugger the game is on fire" test? 
Codezombie fucked around with this message at 14:52 on Nov 10, 2017 |
#
?
Nov 10, 2017 14:46
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 23, 2024 18:50 |
|
|
And at the end of this new tank-focused variant of SC, and Brad Pitt/Chris Roberts is done, Lando hides under the destroyed wreck of CIG and some kindhearted goon spots him but gives him a pass.
|
|
#
?
Nov 10, 2017 14:58
|
|
|
DapperDon posted:As a quick question to you and others here that DO KNOW this stuff. Does Amazon's Lumber Yard do well with networking? In other words, is it Lumberyard being choked by CIG's Frankenengine or is it an incompatibility with it? According to Amazon themselves, the network system they’ve built is not designed for a persistent MMO environment. At least not currently. So yet again, right out of the box, Chris Roberts is just saying “but yuh huh! You just didn’t try hard enough!” directly to the company that actually built the network system. So chances are high that when CIG moved to Lumberyard, they just brought their same arena type networking and had to fix it to run on an AWS cloud, and probably gave up shortly after they realized they lacked skill to do more. Unfortunately for a lot of groups new to AWS and cloud computing, they think they can sacrifice smart coding practices and intelligent network design by increasing the processing power and throughput of their server, and sometimes up to a point this actually works; but it kills them in the long run because their growth was tied to how fast they can make a cluster, and there is a cap. Once people reach that cap, reality hits them in the face like a freight train. I’m not a game developer though, but I’ve developed cloud architecture and this method of thinking persists a lot unfortunately. I have no reason to believe CR doesn’t think he can fix everything by throwing more computer power at it from the cloud.
|
|
#
?
Nov 10, 2017 14:59
|
|
|
Warhawk109 posted:T-34 is overrated. Poor optics, no commanders cupola, commander had to double as loader. Germans were wrecking soviet tanks early in the war at something like a 9:1 kd ratio. Yeah, exactly, and they still managed to lose. T-34 is definitely overrated by many people, it's a piece of poo poo machine in many ways, with a few smart design choices like sloped armour thrown in, but when you can just keep throwing tanks at your enemy until their entire motorpool is in shambles purely through wear and tear, it doesn't matter. It's basically how I win my civilization games. I'm bad doing smart tactics, so I just keep building mech infs, howitzers and aegis cruisers through the power of communism and stalin's industry bonus and no matter how much poo poo I lose to your smart ambushes or whatever, all your poo poo now has half hit points left and my other 80% of the army are still going to arrive before you can repair/replace them. 
|
|
#
?
Nov 10, 2017 14:59
|
|
|
Beer4TheBeerGod posted:I bet you loved Ready Player One. I still love how that book jerks off CIG at one point.
|
|
#
?
Nov 10, 2017 15:02
|
|
|
The Titanic posted:According to Amazon themselves, the network system they’ve built is not designed for a persistent MMO environment. At least not currently. This is basically the story of Crackdown 3 as well... (Well that and it turns out that fully destructible environments makes mission designing hard, who knew?)
|
|
#
?
Nov 10, 2017 15:04
|
|
|
Toops posted:In theory it does. It has something called GridMate which has built-in tools to do server-authoritative networking, and it's backed by AWS's pretty dope-rear end auto-scaling back-end. I'm 100% sure CIG is not using GridMate at all, especially after the most recent bugsmashers showed that. No, CIG has their own netcode goin' on, and the only thing that could eclipse its inadequacy is how hard it would be to swap out. So AWS Lumberyard stuff now supports mmo functionality out of the box? I’m all kinds of out of date! 
|
|
#
?
Nov 10, 2017 15:05
|
|
|
Preen Dog posted:
I don't know what it is about this chap, but he plucks the "root for the underdog" string in me.
|
|
#
?
Nov 10, 2017 15:18
|
|
|
The Titanic posted:I’m not a game developer though, but I’ve developed cloud architecture and this method of thinking persists a lot unfortunately. I have no reason to believe CR doesn’t think he can fix everything by throwing more computer power at it from the cloud. They really need low latency. What I'd do is have a GSLB on static proximity and then hit a close VPC running low latency compute units - spin up 10x and drop the half that test low. Then you can _either_ run back to a loving huge memory-based RDS instance, or, more horrifyingly, attempt to run a database cluster with some write-level caching. If you shard, just throw a database close to the PoP. Biggest problem for their current claim is that they're talking about instancing without geography, which means that a crewmember in the UK will be instanced with someone in South Africa; Geographical sharding is the easiest answer, but... The trouble is that I keep hearing about them using compute and nobody is talking network. Edit: data point for you. GameLift's 'feature' is that you can use a large EC2 instance and virtualize your sessions on it. It's still session-based, and the only people I can find that are using it are mobile games at the moment. They _still_ suffer from networking issues because you can saturate virtualized hosts much quicker. Lladre posted:I don't know what it is about this chap, but he plucks the "root for the underdog" string in me. He's trying against impossible odds; how can you not be an infracaniphile? Hav fucked around with this message at 15:40 on Nov 10, 2017 |
|
#
?
Nov 10, 2017 15:26
|
|
|
SCtrumpHaters posted:Imagine if you will, I was always more of a P-51 guy…
|
|
#
?
Nov 10, 2017 15:32
|
|
|
I think P-51 would be a much better plane with some cannons and less clipped wings. So basically, spitfire.
|
|
#
?
Nov 10, 2017 15:36
|
|
|
Tippis posted:I was always more of a P-51 guy… Same, except Stuka. Just mulling a couple of things, but I think it's kinda important to note that they're going to need some operating costs for this after it launches, and traditionally, that early surge falls off extremely early.
|
|
#
?
Nov 10, 2017 15:37
|
|
|
Tippis posted:I was always more of a P-51 guy… I always had a weird liking for the P-39 myself. Just for that 30 rounds of "ruin someone elses day"
|
|
#
?
Nov 10, 2017 15:41
|
|
|
Tank Citizen thread is good btw keep it up goons.
|
|
#
?
Nov 10, 2017 15:46
|
|
|
Warhawk109 posted:T-34 is overrated. Poor optics, no commanders cupola, commander had to double as loader. Germans were wrecking soviet tanks early in the war at something like a 9:1 kd ratio. Thanks Warhawk, I didn't feel like continuing the discussion too much as military history is propably the second most fanboy riddled discussion after video games. I am very much a proponent of German heavy arms design as it's kinds my job but it's usually not worth to go down the route of what was better in a war 80 years ago on an internet discussion
|
|
#
?
Nov 10, 2017 15:50
|
|
|
DapperDon posted:As a quick question to you and others here that DO KNOW this stuff. Does Amazon's Lumber Yard do well with networking? In other words, is it Lumberyard being choked by CIG's Frankenengine or is it an incompatibility with it? Nobody knows, since there are currently NO RELEASED GAMES that use LumberYard. The engine, as a whole, is all very experimental - and still in Beta. What I do know is that the CryEngine networking layer was always rubbish; and isn't something that they were actively interesting in improving because most of the games the engine targeted, with simple 16-player games, with lobbies. Forget about loving MMOs. And in the latest LY build, they even deprecated the entire CryEngine network layer in favor of their own. Which makes sense, since AWS is network-centric and they would have top tier network engineers there. The LumberYard engine was never designed for MMO games. At all. Even AMZ states this clearly in their docs and faqs about what the engine is designed to do, and the limitations/strengths of the networking component. Whoever wants to use LY for MMO games, is i) one dumb sumbitch ii) an incompetent moron I suspect that in the switch from CE3.x to LY, they ended up using the LY implementation, which would require them to strip the now deprecated CE3.x networking layer they were using in their Frankenengine. There was also indication that they were either using, or planning to use this experimental bullshit (in comparison to SDKs like RakNet or ReplicaNet) call yojimbo which they were Golden backers of. If they did end up using it, loving  because it explains everything.Star Citizen was never designed to be an MMO. They have missed that boat. They're never - ever - going to get there because it's too late now. And the premise of them even attempting it, would mean a code/maintenance freeze of maybe TWO loving YEARS to re-jigger everything. When you consider that the last 2.6.3 patch was in April, and 3.0 is now almost a year late - and will be more than that eventually - it's easy to see how completely and totally hosed they are. As I wrote here, an MMO architecture is not the sort of thing you just tack on at any time during development. The best they could have even got away with, was how Elite Dangerous - which isn't an MMO - did it. And that was a phenomenal fit of engineering, given how it works, the world size etc. AND it has a ton of caveats, regardless. If they are now testing 60 client sessions, it's not because they magically came up with new networking tech (note that it's not listed anywhere in the dev schedule) at the spur of the moment. It's because they have realized that the AWS instances (these are the different tiers) they were usingvfor severs, are simply incapable of handling the additional poo poo that 3.0 is now throwing at it. Unfortunately for them, moving to higher tier AWS instances is not only going to cost them money, but it's also NOT going to solve the networking/connectivity problem. It's just going to solve the server's ability to just gently caress off and die at some point. And it was doing just that - CONSISTENTLY - in the tests they just had. To get a better understanding of what it takes to build an MMO using cloud tech - the dumbest thing to do since we elected a moron as POTUS - is to read these resources. Using the cloud to build a MMORPG <-- This is theoretical and shows you what's possible, not that it's possible for a real-time game, with high fidelity visuals etc Building a World in the Clouds: MMO Architecture on AWS (MBL304) | AWS <-- This is how Firefall did it. Multiplayer was pure poo poo. And the game died. As did the company. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvJPyjmfdz0 <--- This is how Frontier did it. And they don't even try to do anything more than 32 clients within a "bubble/island" They're completely and utterly hosed; and Star Citizen will never - ever - be an MMO. Backers should just pray that they are one day able to play with 32 of their friends in a session. loving  if they all have multi-crew ships.
----------------
|
|
#
?
Nov 10, 2017 15:53
|
|
|
Toops posted:In theory it does. It has something called GridMate which has built-in tools to do server-authoritative networking, and it's backed by AWS's pretty dope-rear end auto-scaling back-end. I'm 100% sure CIG is not using GridMate at all, especially after the most recent bugsmashers showed that. No, CIG has their own netcode goin' on, and the only thing that could eclipse its inadequacy is how hard it would be to swap out. GridMate has nothing to do with MMO technology. But that's not going to stop some devs from trying it. They will need all the luck in the world in order to pull it off. https://aws.amazon.com/blogs/gamedev/tag/gridmate/ quote:Networking engineers can use the updated multiplayer gem to get started building multiplayer games faster—you can now set up a multiplayer lobby using the Lumberyard Flow Graph, with no C++ code required. You’ll also see a networking component added to Lumberyard, so you can implement multiplayer features using the new Component Entity System. We’ve made additions to the GridMate API to expose the ability to reuse EC2 instances with Amazon GameLift, resulting in your game needing fewer instances, and reducing your costs. We’ve also updated the user-interface of the preview of the Cloud Canvas Resource Manager so you can more easily create, update, and delete deployments without risking changes to your game’s other deployments. This reduces the risk that you can accidentally make a change to your release version when you only intend for your QA version to get that change. What is GridMate? http://docs.aws.amazon.com/lumberyard/latest/developerguide/network-intro.html quote:GridMate is Lumberyard's networking subsystem. GridMate is designed for efficient bandwidth usage and low-latency communications. You can synchronize objects over the network with GridMate's replica framework. GridMate's session management integrates with major online console services and lets you handle peer-to-peer and client-server topologies with host migration. GridMate also supports in-game achievements, leaderboards, and cloud-based saved games through third-party social services such as Xbox Live and Steam. For an example of how to set up a multiplayer project, see Multiplayer Sample in the Amazon Lumberyard User Guide. Can I use GameLift to develop an Instance-Based MMO? quote:The scenario you describe would work. Instead of the game clients interacting with the GameLift API to query for specific maps and other configurations, your MMO game server would act as a middle-man. ---------------- D_Smart fucked around with this message at 16:04 on Nov 10, 2017 |
|
#
?
Nov 10, 2017 15:58
|
|
|
Man, this tank chat is absolute poo poo and full of dumb opinions and I normally love tank chat.
|
|
#
?
Nov 10, 2017 16:02
|
|
|
Jobbo_Fett posted:Man, this derek smart forumsblog post is absolute poo poo and full of dumb opinions.
|
|
#
?
Nov 10, 2017 16:05
|
|
|
So when will Star Citizen tank?
|
|
#
?
Nov 10, 2017 16:08
|
|
C-Bangin' it 
|
Colostomy Bag posted:So when will Star Citizen tank? Once the Germans give up
|
|
#
?
Nov 10, 2017 16:11
|
|
|
Jobbo_Fett posted:Man, this tank chat is absolute poo poo and full of dumb opinions and I normally love tank chat. Good tank chat: The "Büffel" pioneer tank is the only vehicle in existence that can lift out and replace it's own engine without additional support. 
|
|
#
?
Nov 10, 2017 16:24
|
|
|
Tankhunters/Tankkillers: Good or bad? trollface
|
|
#
?
Nov 10, 2017 16:25
|
|
|
Colostomy Bag posted:So when will Star Citizen tank? Once Chris gets another movie deal or a mocap/vfx gig that he thinks will sustain his lifestyle and the whale milk dries up, Star Citizen will be put on hold until the computing world catches up to his vision. Not cancelled, mind you, but on indefinite hold. Backers can still play whatever happens to be in place, but no refunds, because he really will get back to finish it - promise.
|
|
#
?
Nov 10, 2017 16:26
|
|
|
D_Smart posted:Nobody knows, since there are currently NO RELEASED GAMES that use LumberYard. The engine, as a whole, is all very experimental - and still in Beta. quote:Is Star Citizen an MMO? they are gonna point to this and justify whatever state the MVP is in when they finally run out of money and give up. It is such weasely horse poo poo it is amazing. I think the last bit is my favorite part Unlike many games, none of these aspects is an afterthought: they all combine to form the core of the Star Citizen experience.
|
|
#
?
Nov 10, 2017 16:30
|
|
|
Preen Dog posted:
I mean he is basically Ulililia with a job so 
|
|
#
?
Nov 10, 2017 16:55
|
|
|
Truga posted:I think P-51 would be a much better plane with some cannons and less clipped wings. I've come to loathe the narrow landing gear of the spit, otherwise yes. Tippis fucked around with this message at 17:01 on Nov 10, 2017 |
|
#
?
Nov 10, 2017 16:59
|
|
|
What do the tank crews call infantry? Speed bumps  A Tiger drives into a bar.... And it collapses Why were the Tiger and Panther running away? A Maus was chasing them. How many gears does an Italian tank have? 6. >1 forward, 5 backward. Okay I'm done. 
|
|
#
?
Nov 10, 2017 17:00
|
|
Welcome to the
|
The primary issue holding Star Citizen back, in my mind, is not related to technology per se. You can write a 900-page blog about how it's impossible or extraordinarily difficult. (Note to self: somebody might have already written one, I have to look into that.) We can watch their horrific development practices and constant missteps all day and show that each one, by itself, stops Star Citizen from coming out, much less considering all the mistakes in aggregate. But none of that matters. The primary issue that keeps Star Citizen from releasing is that their monetization scheme runs in 100% opposition to releasing a game, or even fixing what they have. Many things need to be gutted to the core and either reworked or rebuilt from the ground up, but that can't happen because it must be 3.0, then 3.1, etc. The backers must continue to see numbers go up, and iterations of the current build continuing apace, or the funding is threatened. The entire flight model needs reworking, before the finalized pretty models are put in, but that can't happen, because the finished models are what they're selling - not the game. They're selling finalized game assets and the illusion of progress, and that decision doomed the game. Any course correction at this point threatens to sink the incoming funds, and then it's truly over. That is the true E.L.E. - the point of no return they reached at some point in the last couple years when they had the chance to go back and do it right, and chose instead to forge ahead with a broken system. Now that the funding and the development efforts are fully opposed, it's only a matter of time before they collide.
|
|
#
?
Nov 10, 2017 17:02
|
|
|
Breetai posted:I know that by admitting this I'm announcing a loss as I'm letting myself get caremad about stupid nerd culture bullshit, but there's a particular type of pop culture nerd who just loooves the idea of mashing up multiple geek IPs together and will breathlessly gush about This post is 100% correct and proper. It’s also empirically accurate as shown in a 49 year scientific study performed by me enduring nerds doing this crap. 
|
|
#
?
Nov 10, 2017 17:04
|
|
|
his nibs posted:Okay I'm done. No you're not. I've seen this before and once it starts it never ends.
|
|
#
?
Nov 10, 2017 17:04
|
|
|
Tippis posted:No you're not. I've seen this before and once it starts it never ends. I stole them from World of Tanks forum 
|
|
#
?
Nov 10, 2017 17:06
|
|
|
https://twitter.com/SandiGardiner/status/929016788213407744
|
|
#
?
Nov 10, 2017 17:06
|
|
|
https://twitter.com/RobertsSpaceInd/status/929016306677972992
|
|
#
?
Nov 10, 2017 17:09
|
|
|
 Is that a NES Laser Scope?
|
|
#
?
Nov 10, 2017 17:11
|
|
|
Combat Theory posted:Good tank chat: this post makes up for all the other dead gay tank chat
|
|
#
?
Nov 10, 2017 17:16
|
|
|
D_Smart posted:Nobody knows, since there are currently NO RELEASED GAMES that use LumberYard. The engine, as a whole, is all very experimental - and still in Beta. I was all primed to goof on the WWII chitty chat and then this happened. Come back tank-strokers. All is forgiven.
|
|
#
?
Nov 10, 2017 17:20
|
|
|
The Titanic posted:
That has been my experience as well. Granted the last project I designed was 3 years ago and after that launched I haven't bothered with the latest IT/Networking trends as I finally got out of the IT world and worked on the farms the past couple years. But I remember 10 years ago talking, especially with Ruby on Rails developers, about how they planned their infrastructure and heard a lot of "oh but you see this will scale auto-magically if we use XYZ hosting". I made quite a bit of money for a couple years redesigning the backend for a couple projects. That being said I'm glad I'm out of IT. Although not sure what I'm going to be doing next year because we leased our farms rather than spend $1M buying newer equipment. Still looking at getting my real estate license and getting into rental property. Also thinking about getting my CFI and doing the flight instructor thing. Might end up doing both.
|
|
#
?
Nov 10, 2017 17:23
|
|
|
Truga posted:I think P-51 would be a much better plane with some cannons and less clipped wings. I was always a P-47 guy...
|
|
#
?
Nov 10, 2017 17:26
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 23, 2024 18:50 |
|
|
MilesK posted:Maybe I'm an idiot, but my understanding is maintenance mode is fixing minor bugs until you finish your secret dev build jesus patch or the software just dies completely. While I think either option would've been better for SC, they seem to have just kept on developing on top of their same broken pre-alpha demo for years now. I'm not defending Derek, I'm the first one to make fun of him, but I've talked about this in the past and I think what he said was accurate at the time.  Now I will channel Derek This is all rambling speculation though about what went on behind the scenes. I've formed my opinion by passively watching this shitshow for a few years now and am taking into account things like CIGs own marketing, their tweets, their ATVs and interviews. Also things like the leaks and this threads analysis at every decision and action they take. My theory is this: Due to CIG constantly promising things and being unable to deliver I think Chris Roberts around December 2015 was certain of a early to mid two year late 2016 release for Squadron 42 which is where the real money is at. Since he has talked in interviews about expecting ridiculously impossible numbers of sales for it to the tune of a quarter billion dollars it's reasonable to make that the focus of your company if you are a big enough lunatic to think it's going to be that profitable. Leading up to that was a nonstop barrage of videos about motion capture for Squadron 42 and the actors. Slides about the amazing script. Leaks about all the work going into it and how much work there was actually to do on Squadron 42. All Chris ever wanted to talk about was Squadron 42. Answer the call. So in early 2016 we did get a few new patches to the PU. These patches started getting less and less substantial from 2.1. Eventually they were slight modifications anyone that has ever modded a game would instantly recognize. Adjusting values of things. Then the maintenance mode thing comes up here in March. Not necessarily whatever the official terminology for a "maintenance mode" on a piece of software would be but that the PU was only being worked on to keep up appearances. All focus and resources were going to Squadron 42 but the PU is what cultists have paid for. As 2016 started progressing you started having longer and longer time for even more and more insignificant patches. After about 6-7 months the maintenance mode and reduced consideration for the PU was proven to be exactly correct since it started taking multiple months to get slight tweaks to flight speed or camera movement. 2.5 in August was virtually identical to 2.0 from December of the previous year. I'm sure cultists would point at the hilarious patch notes or compile huge lists of how adjusting the ammunition in a gun or the top speed of something totally disproves my point but if you aren't a crazy idiot arguing for a belief you can see the actual changes from 2.0 -> 2.5 which were the definition of treading water or "maintenance mode." Meanwhile you still saw Mark Hamill and Squadron 42 actors tweeting about their still ongoing motion capture up until July of that year. Gamescom comes around and you have an obvious and proven fake scripted demo in cryeditor.exe to make even more money. Money flows in. Citcon rolls around and in addition to another obvious and proven fake scripted demo in cryeditor.exe you have Squadron 42's appearance cancelled for unexplained reasons. The Leaks had been progressively mentioning a reduced scope in Squadron 42 which was to try and get out "The Prelude." A smaller and cut up version of Squadron 42s content to try and sell it. After that the holiday sale rolls around and CIG manages to poo poo out Star Marine. Once 2017 hit Squadron 42 isn't being talked about much anymore. Work probably progressed on it or The Prelude until early this year and at some point the idea had to have been abandoned. I tend to think that all the leaks about how ridiculous the animation data was were correct. Especially when you consider the slides putting this at 10x the speaking roles of actual studio releases of animated films. Chris Roberts had wanted to make a movie and had generated 90% footage and 10% gameplay with most of his budget and the footage was largely worthless due to the work required to turn tens of millions of dollars of motion capture data into anything resembling a game with a narrative that he could sell for $60. Leaks turned to Squadron 42 being combined with the persistent universe. All outward focus from CIG switches to 3.0 and delivering something that resembles the fake demos they sold last year. I think they have shifted along this path - Planning to develop both games simultaneously with 4 studios (time passes) - Already past their release date with tens of millions in Squadron 42, complete focus on finish it (Maintenance Mode PU) (time passes) - Unable to deal with the hilarious clusterfuck Chris Roberts filmed, scope is reduced and a smaller step will be taken toward Squadron 42, further forgetting the PU (Prelude, A year without patches) (time passes) - Development of anything to do with petabytes of mocap footage becomes so expensive that the forgotten PU is now front and center to make money (Fake Demos late 2016) (a lot of time passes) - Once the main 2017 sales start getting closer CIG starts producing more fake demos but is now apparently struggling to develop something that actually resembles them. (3.0) Work has obviously just started on it sometime recently but they are running with it 100% and are no longer talking about Squadron 42. Due to almost bankrupting the company on Squadron 42 for years their last resort is a broken tech demo they had largely been ignoring. It's all they have and that leads us to now where they are frantically trying to cram more features into an ancient engine they should have never used in the first place. It's a shame that we have to speculate so much about what is actually happening at THE WORLD'S MOST OPEN GAME DEVELOPMENT STUDIO. I'm pretty confident about that chain of events and if I was as crazy as Derek i would probably look up all the supporting tweets and information for each step but I don't care enough to spend an eternity digging through endless amounts of bullshit to highlight my points.
|
|
#
?
Nov 10, 2017 17:32
|
|