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turn left hillary!! noo posted:"Sex-positivity" in my book does not include a culture with a taboo, however mild, against refusing sexual advances. consider that this series traces its lineage back to the mind of gene "in the future everyone has sex with everyone all the time and there's no hang-ups and nobody harshes on you for asking to gently caress their wife and your girlfriend and your wife all at the same time because they aren't prudes, man" roddenberry the guy once broke down crying to a friend because he was having trouble having sex more than three times in a day and he thought there was something wrong with him
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Nov 12, 2017 07:55
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Baronjutter posted:When he answered the question of if he was in heat during the first affair he sort of paused, looked at the two of them, and said "yeah, probably" and I took that very much as him telling a white lie to try to undue some of the damage he did. I took it as an honest maybe. If you asked me if a year ago around this time if I was on my period, best I could answer would be maybe or probably because unless there's something specific to make it stand out, best I'm going to remember is I had it that month a year ago.
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Nov 12, 2017 08:21
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Al Borland Corp. posted:Here's a question: if Rob Lowe was in heat was he fully in control of his own actions? Were his own pheremones affecting him just as much as anyone else? Here’s a question: when do you not be obnoxious in every thread I read?
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Nov 12, 2017 08:22
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I think all the skeeviness comes from Darulio knowing about the pheromones and not doing anything about it. The episode would have been great if it was some accidental thing, hornifying space radiation, aphrodisiac resin on the birthing pod, or even a dismissive "wow, turns out humans have a really strong reaction to our pheromones, isn't biology weird?"
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Nov 12, 2017 10:20
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M_Sinistrari posted:I took it as an honest maybe. If you asked me if a year ago around this time if I was on my period, best I could answer would be maybe or probably because unless there's something specific to make it stand out, best I'm going to remember is I had it that month a year ago. The thing is, too, whether the sec was pheromone related or not, the sex was the catalyst of the divorce, but the underlying problems behind it were Ed's workaholiam and Kelly feeling ignored and unappreciated. Even without the sex, the underlying issues remain.
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Nov 12, 2017 11:52
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Epicurius posted:The thing is, too, whether the sec was pheromone related or not, the sex was the catalyst of the divorce, but the underlying problems behind it were Ed's workaholiam and Kelly feeling ignored and unappreciated. Even without the sex, the underlying issues remain. Were they severe enough or is that backwards rationalization from a conclusion?
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Nov 12, 2017 12:37
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I found this online. Rotten Tomato scores are bullshit for all sorts of reasons but it's still pretty funny that the critics hated this show but the audience had the exact opposite opinion.   Also I guess we should take the audience score for Discovery with a huge pinch of salt given the whole misogyny/racism backlash thing.
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Nov 12, 2017 13:10
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Memory Alpha posted:However, during the escape, they are confronted by Kol. Realizing they are unlikely to escape, Cornwell grabs L'Rell's blade and attacks her, in order to give L'Rell a way out. L'Rell and Cornwell carry out a convincing fight, in front of Kol's men, to maintain the illusion; afterward, L'Rell hides the unconscious Cornwell in a side room - a room which, to L'Rell's horror, is filled with corpses. (DIS: "Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum") Hah, the writers of the wiki don't know wtf either.
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Nov 12, 2017 13:44
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turn left hillary!! noo posted:"Sex-positivity" in my book does not include a culture with a taboo, however mild, against refusing sexual advances. I guess this culture could be considered "alien" to you then.
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Nov 12, 2017 13:48
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Wake_N_Bake posted:Here’s a question: when do you not be obnoxious in every thread I read? Well that seems out of left field
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Nov 12, 2017 13:48
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I feel like the show missed an opportunity to show random crew members with blue ink stains on their clothes as Derulio slowly works his way through the ship's complement.
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Nov 12, 2017 13:58
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turn left hillary!! noo posted:"Sex-positivity" in my book does not include a culture with a taboo, however mild, against refusing sexual advances. It doesn't even include considering such a culture? Sex really doesn't have to be taboo, shameful, it even private the way it is for us. Another culture may feel the same way about conversation. On ENT there was a culture that had the same level of taboo about eating, which seems just as reasonable. A group like the Union is going to end up with cultures that feel very differently about a great number of things, including sex. Being willing to coexist with others who have wildly different views and experiences is sex positive, yes. I grant that it wasn't explored in great depth. It couldn't have been in a ~45 min show, and I suppose you could argue they shouldn't show it at all if they can't fully explore it, but I'd have to disagree about that. edit: No one caring about Ed banging a dude other than the timing and his best friend's mild surprise because he didn't know he liked dudes - that was pretty sex positive.
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Nov 12, 2017 15:06
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The Bloop posted:It doesn't even include considering such a culture? If such a culture existed outside of sweaty erotic fan fiction, a culture that chemically induced others to want to have sex with them and then conveniently had a taboo about refusing offers of sex, then they would absolutely be expected to adhere to the general mores and ethics of the larger community they found themselves a part of. It is incumbent on them not to rape people, not for everyone else to “stop being so small-minded, man, and embrace other cultures’ relaxed attitude towards rape!” That’s not sex-positive. That’s rape-positive. Just because you dress it up with all kinds of sci-fi excuses for it to not be a horrible invasion of bodily autonomy doesn’t make it any less horrible or invasive.
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Nov 12, 2017 16:30
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MisterBibs posted:Yeah, but he also deliberately shook hands with Ed and Kelly, and the thing you mention was not coded at all like a deliberate way to get his dandruff on her. And that's part of why I have a problem with it. Sagebrush posted:consider that this series traces its lineage back to the mind of gene "in the future everyone has sex with everyone all the time and there's no hang-ups and nobody harshes on you for asking to gently caress their wife and your girlfriend and your wife all at the same time because they aren't prudes, man" roddenberry And that's part of why I have a problem with it. It's a degradation of both sex and the person; the death of, not only personal taste, but sexual agency itself. It's sexual communism.
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Nov 12, 2017 16:30
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The Orville: Sexual Communism
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Nov 12, 2017 17:04
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When I get that feelism I need Sexual Communism
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Nov 12, 2017 17:11
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Phylodox posted:Just because you dress it up with all kinds of sci-fi excuses for it to not be a horrible invasion of bodily autonomy doesn’t make it any less horrible or invasive. That's actually one of the more interesting questions raised by the episode: where exactly the "invasion of bodily autonomy" line is. We accept pheromones, artificial scents, augmented looks, smooth talk, social status, and countless other things influence us sexually without claiming an "invasion of bodily autonomy". Straight up drugging someone so they are unconscious is correctly over our line as is having sex with a drunk person, but we probably wouldn't say one drink is a disqualifier to meaningful consent. There's a nebulous line somewhere in between. We simply don't have enough information to know just how "not themselves" the characters were when they were affected by the alien pheromones or what Union law or custom is about stuff like this. The fact that the characters responded as they did rather than arresting him and charging him with space rape means that there is at least more ambiguity in their world than in your mind. Taking the worst reading from an ambiguous situation and judging the show on that seems unfair.
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Nov 12, 2017 17:30
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Derulio walked through Yaphit, so there's him being affected too
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Nov 12, 2017 17:42
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I have some date rape drugs to sell to you.
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Nov 12, 2017 17:51
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seize the means of reproduction
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Nov 12, 2017 18:25
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Combat Pretzel posted:I have some date rape drugs to sell to you. That doesn't sound like something you should announce in public. Or post. Also gently caress you. I happen to think that considering theoretical differences in alien cultures and biology is fascinating. I also think blue guy was probably a criminal by the spirit if not letter of 21st century earth law and culture. For all we know, though, the two incidents we saw were his only two contacts with humans and we already know some Union races know very little about each other's culture and biology. That he intended to cause harm or even truly understood that he might is not clear.
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Nov 12, 2017 18:39
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The Bloop posted:We simply don't have enough information to know just how "not themselves" the characters were when they were affected by the alien pheromones or what Union law or custom is about stuff like this. The fact that the characters responded as they did rather than arresting him and charging him with space rape means that there is at least more ambiguity in their world than in your mind. Taking the worst reading from an ambiguous situation and judging the show on that seems unfair. We totally do have enough information. Mercer and Grayson were in serious dereliction of duty, to the point of risking open war. Claire abandoned her children, despite the previous episode going in-depth about how much she loved (and would kill someone for) them. And, again, the characters’ reactions after the fact are immaterial. They’re fictional. Some writer deciding they’re totally okay with being raped doesn’t make it okay. Writing a fictional future society where social mores have changed to the point that rape is okay doesn’t make rape okay! It only shows the writers are skeevy. quote:For all we know, though, the two incidents we saw were his only two contacts with humans and we already know some Union races know very little about each other's culture and biology. That he intended to cause harm or even truly understood that he might is not clear. This doesn’t fly today. “Ignorantia juris non excusat.” He committed rape. That’s all there is to it.
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Nov 12, 2017 18:54
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Phylodox posted:We totally do have enough information. Mercer and Grayson were in serious dereliction of duty, to the point of risking open war. Claire abandoned her children, despite the previous episode going in-depth about how much she loved (and would kill someone for) them.
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Nov 12, 2017 19:39
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It would have been better with it was the interaction with Yavin that led to the crazy sexcapades, with their being an unintended mix of two different DNAs or something. That would have made Rob Lowe less of a scumbag.
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Nov 12, 2017 19:40
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turn left hillary!! noo posted:And that's part of why I have a problem with it. are you trolling or soft in the head
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Nov 12, 2017 19:41
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Phylodox posted:This doesn’t fly today. “Ignorantia juris non excusat.” He committed rape. That’s all there is to it. So you claim Yaphit raped the doctor? edit: if so did she also rape him?
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Nov 12, 2017 19:42
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Also! He says he comes from a culture where it's considered rude to turn down sex. A culture. Not a planet, not a race. Think of all the horrific poo poo humans claim is part of their culture. Beating women. Torturing and then eating dogs. Child abuse. Whaling. My personal culture is against wearing pants, but I think I'd be called on it by both the Union and the UFP. Although both probably have nude colonies. I guess there's betazed, but I think that'd get old real fast.
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Nov 12, 2017 19:48
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Mods, please change my name to Sexual Communism
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Nov 12, 2017 19:49
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The Bloop posted:So you claim Yaphit raped the doctor? I think, in a sane world, it would warrant a serious inquiry. A crew member who threatened to go to HR to complain about unwanted advances suddenly throws herself at you? Yaphit clearly either wasn’t under the effects of the pheromones or their effects on him were greatly lessened. He showed terrible judgement at the very least. I don’t think Yaphit would be charged with rape, but given his history along with this incident, he would probably have to undergo harassment seminars and be transferred to another vessel.
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Nov 12, 2017 19:50
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Autism Sneaks posted:are you trolling or soft in the head To what part of my post are you objecting? The part where I have a problem with the fact the character and the show treat rape trivially, or the part where I have a problem with the show being grounded in the ideals of Gene Roddenberry?
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Nov 12, 2017 20:21
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Snowglobe of Doom posted:I found this online. Rotten Tomato scores are bullshit for all sorts of reasons but it's still pretty funny that the critics hated this show but the audience had the exact opposite opinion. Discovery is a bunch of high quality ingredients (good actors, sets, special effects) prepared poorly by people who didn't really think things through, and is loved in the same way that food at an over-priced restaurant is loved (i.e., by people with more money than taste). The Orville is what Gordon Ramsay puts together with ingredients from the average kitchen - amazing, and it really makes you think about the possibilities for wonder waiting inside the mundane.
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Nov 12, 2017 20:22
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Wouldn't the very fact that such an investigation or anything isn't even hinted at be a very clear sign that you're not supposed to even entertain the whole "it's objectively rape" mentality?
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Nov 12, 2017 20:24
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The Bloop posted:So you claim Yaphit raped the doctor? All penetration is rape, but....I'm not really sure they penetrated each other. I got the impression the relief Yaphit gave was more topical in nature. Like you apply him directly to your tingly bits.
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Nov 12, 2017 20:26
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Phylodox posted:I think, in a sane world, it would warrant a serious inquiry. A crew member who threatened to go to HR to complain about unwanted advances suddenly throws herself at you? Yaphit clearly either wasn’t under the effects of the pheromones or their effects on him were greatly lessened. He showed terrible judgement at the very least. I don’t think Yaphit would be charged with rape, but given his history along with this incident, he would probably have to undergo harassment seminars and be transferred to another vessel. Yaphit didn't know any better because Yaphit is an idiot. Everyone on the ship is an idiot, it's a ship of idiots. It's McHale's Navy In Space. Krispy Wafer posted:All penetration is rape, but....I'm not really sure they penetrated each other. I got the impression the relief Yaphit gave was more topical in nature. Like you apply him directly to your tingly bits. Remember how they needed Yaphit to make the changes to the shield array because he was the only one who could reach into the conduits? Penetration is his speciality.
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Nov 12, 2017 20:29
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I mean I'll walk you through it if you want. If you find it appealing to live in a culture where it's rude to turn down sex, you're an incel or a predator, straight up, and incels are merely predators-in-waiting. You're Harvey Weinstein or Donald Trump.
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Nov 12, 2017 20:30
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^^ yes they definitely seem like a whole planet of celibates. Phylodox posted:I don’t think Yaphit would be charged with rape, but given his history along with this incident, he would probably have to undergo harassment seminars and be transferred to another vessel. Also, how do you know Yaphit wasn't affected? It wasn't obvious to me. In any case, the question was do YOU think Yaphit raped the doctor? Did she, even in her state, rape him by unknowingly sexing under false pretenses? You seemed to imply that intent or knowledge were immaterial. The Bloop fucked around with this message at 20:34 on Nov 12, 2017 |
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Nov 12, 2017 20:31
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MisterBibs posted:Wouldn't the very fact that such an investigation or anything isn't even hinted at be a very clear sign that you're not supposed to even entertain the whole "it's objectively rape" mentality? Yeah, and that's a huge problem. They're, wittingly or not, pushing the view that sex is no big deal, that it's a joke, and you're a huge prude if you object to Donald Trump grabbing you by the pussy.
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Nov 12, 2017 20:35
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MisterBibs posted:Wouldn't the very fact that such an investigation or anything isn't even hinted at be a very clear sign that you're not supposed to even entertain the whole "it's objectively rape" mentality? No? This is a fictional world. They could have had someone literally, graphically, traumatically raped on-screen and then said, “Yeah, but it’s all good because in the future rape isn’t rape.” These aren’t real, thinking, feeling people. It’s not really a spaceship in the future. They wrote an episode in which people have their will subverted and are then sexually taken advantage of. By the standards of the society in which this show is written, that is objectively rape. It doesn’t matter at all what the writer “intended”.
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Nov 12, 2017 20:36
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Phylodox posted:I think, in a sane world, it would warrant a serious inquiry. A crew member who threatened to go to HR to complain about unwanted advances suddenly throws herself at you? Yaphit clearly either wasn’t under the effects of the pheromones or their effects on him were greatly lessened. He showed terrible judgement at the very least. I don’t think Yaphit would be charged with rape, but given his history along with this incident, he would probably have to undergo harassment seminars and be transferred to another vessel. Yaphit's shown to be kind of dumb in general and even he seemed fairly confused by the abrupt turn-around with Claire in the first place. Not really sure you can call him a rapist in this case, he had no way of knowing what the gently caress was going on. If he'd knowingly rubbed himself on Derulio then the flowers AFTER things had been figured out then yeah whatever accuse him of being a rapist. But as it is, all we're shown is that the Yaphit/Claire situation was an extremely unfortunate bit of collateral damage removed from the actual fuckery of knowingly coming into contact with people when you're in a state that will basically turn them into super-hormonal teenagers wanting/needing to gently caress your brains out and taking advantage of that state. Derulio is pretty undeniably a rapist in this situation. What Yaphit did was, at best, kind of dumb but he's kind of shown to have poor judgment. What Derulio did however is hosed up and undeniable. What he did to fix the hosed up poo poo he caused was also hosed up and no one in the show seems very happy about it whatsoever, Derulio included. His callous attitude to the whole thing until he's literally started a war due to being a casual bro-culture-esque rapist is shown as hosed up. No real comparison there. At no point is the situation NOT shown to be varying degrees of hosed up. Even the "funny" scenes with Mercer and Grayson are pretty much there to show just how hosed up they are and how out of whack from how we know they normally are they are due to what he's done. Everyone around them is varying degrees of confused, worried, and eventually angry over what's happened to them. I still think Alara was kept from beating the poo poo out of Derulio purely by virtue of not wanting to actually have to touch him and because they still needed his creepy, rapist rear end to finish the study of the artifact. The fact we don't get an extended, very special episode going into detail in all the ways Derulio is going to have his career hosed for being a creepy-rear end alien rapist rear end in a top hat doesn't mean the writers are condoning rape suddenly. Especially when the end of the episode, and episode in general, shows that once people know what is going on they want nothing to do with him, to be near him, or anything else. He's quite literally toxic and treated accordingly. The end to me seemed like Ed coming just shy of telling him to get the gently caress off his ship and never come back, and you could assume all this horrible, hosed up poo poo is going to end up in some sort of report explaining just how the gently caress things got as bad as they did with the two species they were trying to PREVENT war with because why would you eat the blame for that when it's a blue rapist rear end in a top hat that caused it? The entire Derulio character seems like a condemnation of the casual rape/assault culture of certain environments, quite likely including Hollywood itself. He's a flippant, casual rear end in a top hat about what he did/does, how it happens, and apparently has gotten away with it just fine before up to the point where it literally starts a god drat war and suddenly people that give enough of a drat to do something about it make him confront the reality of it all. He even goes out of his way to leverage his job as a means of trying to wiggle loose of repercussions from it.
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Nov 12, 2017 20:36
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For me the weirdest part about all this is that they either didn't/couldn't think through all the ramifications of what they put up on screen or they decided to go most of the way down that road but then turn back before reaching any firm conclusion (which honestly is starting to sound like a bit of a pattern in the writing for this show) and leave it all ambiguous and up to the viewer (which is especially underlined by Derulio's final line) but on the other hand this is obviously the one episode which they'd especially been planning for and working towards right from the start of the series because it was set up by a whole bunch of little things in other episodes including the very first Rob Lowe appearance in the first few minutes of the first episode and all the Yaphit/Claire scenes from all those other episodes. This wasn't just some random 'crew gets affected by alien pheromones' filler episode, this was one of the core episodes of the season which had been on the books from the very start.
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Nov 12, 2017 20:37
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