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Jazerus posted:to me it comes down to, did the episode's tone come off as very creepy and definitely against derulio, or as comedic? i definitely felt that it was more of a horror episode, but if someone felt it was more the latter then i could understand thinking it was a tone-deaf episode This is a point I made earlier: Nobody gave Derulio a  , and after everything was said and done, they told him to GTFO and not come back. Sometimes TV doesn't have a happy ending, and they just wanted to get rid of the creepy rear end in a top hat now.
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Nov 13, 2017 02:05
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The fact that it's called "Cupid's Dagger" is probably a hint at the tone of the episode.
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Nov 13, 2017 02:16
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All I can say is that the last episode was exactly the kind of episode I was afraid would be in The Orville.
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Nov 13, 2017 03:56
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Maybe they should have called it "Here's my pheromones, so call me rapey."
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Nov 13, 2017 04:28
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tarlibone posted:I'm not sure a thread about rape would use the word "rape" in two months as much as this one has in the last week. I feel like the mods should bring out a doll and ask you all to point to where the show bad-touched you. I like this show a lot, with initial caution that had diminished over time, but the reservations I have shot way up with this one. I'll still be watching, but I hope this is a blip and not a sign of things to come.
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Nov 13, 2017 04:33
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Caught up to the most recent episode, and it blooooooooooooows The XO being the captain's ex-wife is the worst part of the show's premise, and they were doing much better in episodes where that didn't come up. PostNouveau fucked around with this message at 04:47 on Nov 13, 2017 |
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Nov 13, 2017 04:44
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PostNouveau posted:Catching up on this show, and it's getting better. The shuttle crash 2 episodes ago looked great and was really well directed. They just don't conclude episodes well. The premises are good, but a lot of them are knockoffs, and the crew never ever has a clever solution. It really feels like they're trying to do versions/homages of iconic Trek episodes with a twist or pushing them in a funnier direction: "Hey what if a character was going through Pon Farr but instead of making himself super horny it made the rest of the crew super horny? And Ed is in a super critical meeting to avert a war and he just stops and goes "Hey I just met a guy" that would be hilarious!!" but then they can't think of a way to end the episode so they just go "I dunno they use the pheromones to avert a war and save millions of lives so it's also a good thing I guess??" Also I have a slight suspicion that McFarlane's scripts may have been somewhat edgier and darker to start with but there was pressure from above to pull back on those elements so instead we get these hosed up situations which are handled lightly and the show never really acknowledges how hosed up things really are. Or maybe he self-edits himself - he can't help but write scripts about hosed up stuff but he also wants to make an uplifting nu-Trek homage.
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Nov 13, 2017 06:16
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JacksLibido posted:
I'd totally agree with you if we were discussing something by Heinlein or Sturgeon (or even Piers Anthony or John Norman  ) but given how hamfisted and clumsy this show handles these themes I really severely doubt the writers sat around a table and went "Right, let's challenge viewers' perceptions on consent this episode!" If anything they would have gone "Whoa this is touching on some pretty serious topics that might detract from the jokes, how can we pull back on that so the audience doesn't get too distracted by this stuff?" We can still interpret the show though a cultural anthropology scope and dissect the themes as we have done in this thread but I really doubt that was completely intentional by the show's creators. Edit: that's not to say that there's not a huge amount of people behind the show putting a ton of focused, intricate work into the minutiae that goes into the other aspects of the production https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xcy51xoppo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HspAjm-Pna8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zaVLnWSZY5A Snowglobe of Doom fucked around with this message at 06:56 on Nov 13, 2017 |
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Nov 13, 2017 06:41
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Just saw the last episode. It justified all the discussion it's generated. Glad this isn't some dumb temperature derail and actually about something meaningful. When I watch things I tend to be somewhat uncritical. I was expecting to be annoyed by relationships bullshit, and to my surprise Ed and Kelly were... pretty watchable and the relationship bullshit was quite funny in a lot of scenes so I was more or less on board with the episode. And then they used the pheromones to coerce the ambassadors. And then my critical thought started up. And so I really get it when people have trouble with how hosed up this episode was. I enjoyed it. I don't want to feel bad about it. The easiest way to do that is to pretend like there's nothing wrong. That's a really easy argument to make to yourself. You can pick up on any kind of justification that you want and while you're considering that justification things still seem good and you don't want to let that go so of course that justification convinces you. But this episode featured obvious sexual coercion. People who were very obviously chemically impaired were being taken advantage of for sex. Unambiguously. That's rape. Consider how the doctor felt about the blob at the start of the episode. Very clear discomfort, to the point of threatening to make a totally justified harassment complaint. After exposure to a chemical she feels compelled to have sex with him. That's not just the affect of someone trying to look nice or any bullshit like that that people have tried to say. That's being drugged. There's a good argument to be had about how culpable the blob guy was- he was pretty ignorant of the whole situation, but could reasonably have been expected to see there was something wrong with the doctor- but the blue guy knew what he was doing. The fact that it was "okay in his culture" is not some sci-fi fantasy scenario that excuses his behavior, it's exactly the justification that often leads to real rape. Feeling like your partner is obliged to sleep with you after you bought them dinner is cultural. Feeling like drunken consent is real consent is cultural. He felt his rape was culturally justified and that's incredibly relevant to real discussions of rape. This episode depicted rape in a very real and relevant way, and while it was not presented as good when the blue guy did it, it was played for laughs, and then actually presented as good when they manipulated the ambassadors. And the shame is... it was a pretty good and funny episode! I enjoyed it quite a bit at the time without really thinking it through, and I would probably be happier if I just didn't worry about it. But it handled its depiction of sexual coercion really badly, and there's no way to deny that.
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Nov 13, 2017 07:41
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I'm struggling to articulate this properly. Different definitions of consent are being proposed in this thread but I think the two big ones are reducible to a rational negotiation brokered between two monads, and an agreement premised on the assumption that both parties are perfectly transparent and forthcoming. I think both are extremely problematic and unworkable. On the other hand, I'm happy to read that cultural relativism is no longer en vogue, at least among TVIV sci-fi nerds. On another note, was there any indication that Derulio was seeking Mercer's attention? Did Mercer rape Derulio when he put Derulio in a (socially conditioned) position to be unable to decline sex?
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Nov 13, 2017 08:23
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I'm always happy to find that another corner of SA has realized how much of a blazing idiot MisterBibs is and realized not to engage him ever. Episode success!
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Nov 13, 2017 09:46
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just another posted:I'm struggling to articulate this properly. Different definitions of consent are being proposed in this thread but I think the two big ones are reducible to a rational negotiation brokered between two monads, and an agreement premised on the assumption that both parties are perfectly transparent and forthcoming. I think both are extremely problematic and unworkable. Consent isn't hard. If someone would normally refuse to even consider the idea of tea, but wants to drink pot after pot of it solely because they have been exposed to a mind-altering substance that makes them crave tea, you should not serve them tea. They are not able to consent to having tea. Also, I'm fine with cultural relativism in general. The issue in this context is that Derulio is doing his thing on a Union ship. They refused to 'fix' the baby girl because she was their responsibility, so it actually feels weird that they shrug off rapey Rob Lowe without a thought. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7Nii5w2FaI
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Nov 13, 2017 10:20
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Because it's Rob Lowe.
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Nov 13, 2017 15:11
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You know, if the Smufs started bottling and selling their pheromones, they'd make a fortune. McSpanky posted:I'm always happy to find that another corner of SA has realized how much of a blazing idiot MisterBibs is and realized not to engage him ever. Episode success! Someone find the clip of the guys from RedLetterMedia telling MisterBibs he's an idiot
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Nov 13, 2017 17:01
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Accretionist posted:I wouldn't go that far. You'd be on the receiving end of it quite a bit, too, which breaks symmetry with the 'power fantasy' angle. This is where it breaks down though, because who would be willing to do that for literally anyone who asks - those one is not attracted to, nonpreferred genders, or just feeling ill/not in the mood etc.? At that point you're no more than a communal sex robot and the only possible agency you could exert is to make yourself as sexually unappealing as possible, which most everyone else will also be doing after the initial period of "this is awesome" wears off and reality sets in.
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Nov 13, 2017 17:04
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turn left hillary!! noo posted:This is where it breaks down though, because who would be willing to do that for literally anyone who asks Yeah that would be really....alien
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Nov 13, 2017 17:10
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turn left hillary!! noo posted:This is where it breaks down though, because who would be willing to do that for literally anyone who asks - those one is not attracted to, nonpreferred genders, or just feeling ill/not in the mood etc.? At that point you're no more than a communal sex robot and the only possible agency you could exert is to make yourself as sexually unappealing as possible, which most everyone else will also be doing after the initial period of "this is awesome" wears off and reality sets in. If you're a member of a species that gives off sex pheromones once a year that effect everyone, then for that time, you basically are a sex robot. The question of agency goes out the window.
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Nov 13, 2017 18:15
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Alright, but getting back to the cultural issue and even leaving out consent, he's knowingly interacting with cultures that aren't like that. I mean let's say I, with my dashing good looks and incredible charisma, go on a trip to e.g. a country with a more traditional Middle Eastern culture, but, following my cultural norms, hook up with some hot babe for a one-night stand. Totally consensual once I convince her this is no big deal in my culture, and she's so enamored of my ripped physique and deep, mesmerizing eyes that she goes along with it. Then her dad or brother finds out. Now you and I may both think that culture is regressive and way out of line, but I've still done something massively foolish and negligent, and dare I say wrong, because I've endangered her life. So my point is that you can't even fall back on cultural differences. Blue guy was not ignorant of them; he even made it a point in his defense with Ed after he stormed into the lab.
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Nov 13, 2017 18:42
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That would make you an rear end in a top hat but not a criminal, and not her a victim.
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Nov 13, 2017 18:57
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Sure, but is that even debatable? It seems like it's consensus both in the show and among the viewers that the Rob Lowe character is not a good guy, or that what happened to the Orville characters is ok. Even using the love pheromone on the warring aliens is portrayed as an act of desperation after the original plan to modify the shields and get between the warring fleet fails, because of a side effect of the pheromones.
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Nov 13, 2017 18:57
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just another posted:That would make you an rear end in a top hat but not a criminal, and not her a victim. In some cultures I would be stoned to death with her. Add the, at best, muddled issue of consent from this, and she's certainly a victim, in more ways than one. Sorry, there's both the cultural and the consent debates going on and I'm sort of flitting between them.
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Nov 13, 2017 19:07
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turn left hillary!! noo posted:In some cultures I would be stoned to death with her. Add the, at best, muddled issue of consent from this, and she's certainly a victim, in more ways than one. Sorry, there's both the cultural and the consent debates going on and I'm sort of flitting between them. You guys are ruining TV, work on that.
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Nov 13, 2017 19:53
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Looks like poo poo gets real next episode https://twitter.com/TheOrville/status/930148283502047232?s=17
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Nov 13, 2017 20:05
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0:12 issss that ... a heavily edited patrick stewart voice?
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Nov 13, 2017 20:10
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Al Borland Corp. posted:Looks like poo poo gets real next episode That looked loving cool
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Nov 13, 2017 21:04
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Looks like it's paying homage to/parodying the TNG horror style episodes, looking forward to it.
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Nov 13, 2017 21:05
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What I like most about Orville is that it all seems pretty lighthearted like TNG but really, has any episode other than the pilot ended in a happy ending? Aren't they all bummers?
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Nov 13, 2017 21:07
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Croatoan posted:What I like most about Orville is that it all seems pretty lighthearted like TNG but really, has any episode other than the pilot ended in a happy ending? Aren't they all bummers? I'd say about half the episodes have had happy endings. Consider the alien zoo, turtle-shaped world ship, social media planet, and even shuttle crash episodes. Things generally worked out at least mostly well for the good guys.
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Nov 13, 2017 21:16
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Powered Descent posted:I'd say about half the episodes have had happy endings. Consider the alien zoo, turtle-shaped world ship, social media planet, and even shuttle crash episodes. Things generally worked out at least mostly well for the good guys. Social media planet's society still sucks, the original away team is dead. The alien zoo still exists. The shuttle crash planet still is zombified because as they said, they "might" get around to saving it one day. I guess "If the Stars Should Appear" had a happy ending. There's just not the Picard looking smug as he taught an entire society the error of their ways ending like TNG. Like I said, it's like TNG but a bummer when you think about it.
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Nov 13, 2017 21:38
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double nine posted:0:12 issss that ... a heavily edited patrick stewart voice? Considering his connection to Seth MacFarlane, it wouldn't be a surprise at all to get a cameo.
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Nov 13, 2017 21:44
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I'm not 100% convinced myself but it feels to me like the voice has a similar cadence.
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Nov 13, 2017 21:48
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Rocksicles posted:You guys are ruining TV, work on that. I'm not the one making shows about rape, but OK.
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Nov 13, 2017 21:53
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Croatoan posted:Social media planet's society still sucks, the original away team is dead. The alien zoo still exists. The shuttle crash planet still is zombified because as they said, they "might" get around to saving it one day. I guess "If the Stars Should Appear" had a happy ending. There's just not the Picard looking smug as he taught an entire society the error of their ways ending like TNG. Like I said, it's like TNG but a bummer when you think about it. If this were TOS, Kirk would probably go on a big speech telling social media planet why their society is sick then blow up their main computer. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXQIC9EyPTU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKmUd0zHW4w
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Nov 13, 2017 22:03
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Gammatron 64 posted:If this were TOS, Kirk would probably go on a big speech telling social media planet why their society is sick then blow up their main computer. We need Kirk today more than ever.
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Nov 13, 2017 22:15
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double nine posted:0:12 issss that ... a heavily edited patrick stewart voice? If they've cast him as a Q-analogue, it would just be perfect.
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Nov 14, 2017 01:29
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One thing this past episode did, that I think has gone overlooked, is signal, unambiguously, that The Orville is not the right wing counterpart to Discovery. Actually, its probably the reverse, now that I think about it.
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Nov 14, 2017 06:08
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Beachcomber posted:One thing this past episode did, that I think has gone overlooked, is signal, unambiguously, that The Orville is not the right wing counterpart to Discovery. Did anyone ever think it was, they've been pretty accepting of gay/transgender and that potshot about how most advanced species leave religion behind.
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Nov 14, 2017 06:20
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socialsecurity posted:Did anyone ever think it was, they've been pretty accepting of gay/transgender and that potshot about how most advanced species leave religion behind. Not anyone here but there's a contingent of Internet people who were calling Discovery a "SJW Show" because it had the audacity to star a black woman. The fact that the actual content of the Orville didn't fit this narrative was irrelevant to them.
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Nov 14, 2017 06:23
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There was a post detailing how they've basically played both sides of the political line. I don't think this episode changes that at all.
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Nov 14, 2017 07:06
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PostNouveau posted:Ehhhhhhh, I don't get the feeling that's intended. The show doesn't act like anyone is any good at their jobs, but the conclusions are treated like "Aha!" moments. Those moments never really strike me as particularly smart though. I think the Orville is kind of middle of the road. It has people who are good at their jobs (Doc Finn, Alara, Bortus) while others eeehhhhh (Malloy, LeMarr).
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Nov 14, 2017 07:16
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