Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us money per month for bills, and since we don't believe in showing ads to our users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
 
  • Post
  • Reply
Darko
Dec 23, 2004

esperterra posted:

ftfy

I think dating your employee is fine given the right circumstances. When someone is just abusing power, though, that's hosed and needs to stop. Besides dating your boss sounds like it would be the worst. You'd never get away from work!

There is no way for someone in power to know if they're abusing it or not for sure, so, no, no one should be dating employees or juniors that they mentor or supervise.

Darko fucked around with this message at 02:00 on Nov 22, 2017

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

DrVenkman
Dec 28, 2005

I think he can hear you, Ray.
Though they're far from ironclad, Jeremy Piven voluntarily submitted himself to, and passed, a polygraph test in his accusation case.

Name Change
Oct 9, 2005


DrVenkman posted:

Though they're far from ironclad, Jeremy Piven voluntarily submitted himself to, and passed, a polygraph test in his accusation case.

Not only are they not ironclad, they're worthless.

-Blackadder-
Jan 2, 2007

Game....Blouses.

Basebf555 posted:

When women in positions of power sexually harassing men in the workplace is a major widespread problem then we can focus on that. Right now I'm ok with saying that men are the primary issue here.
Then for your sake I hope neither you nor anyone you care about ever have to experience the "male privilege" of being sexually assaulted in prison, an issue, by the way, so hilariously ignored it makes the too often ignored in the past sexual assault of women look like the OJ Simpson Trial coverage.

Ignorance is a big part of why these problems continue. Anyone who thinks sexual harassment and assault are gendered issues is an ignorant loving jackass really needs to educate themselves so they can stop being part of the problem.

EDIT: vvv Someone who didn't even bother to read the links.....
They are not gendered issues in that males are not victims, they are not gendered issues in that women are not perpetrators. Period. Anyone who actually supports ending sexual harassment and assault really needs to make sure they're educated about the whole breadth of the issue. Otherwise they're just part of the problem and railing against something they themselves are guilty of.

And since it will inevitably be brought up, the answer from one of the articles...

quote:

Now the question is, in a climate when politicians and the media are finally paying attention to military and campus sexual assault, should these new findings alter our national conversation about rape? Stemple is a longtime feminist who fully understands that men have historically used sexual violence to subjugate women and that in most countries they still do. As she sees it, feminism has fought long and hard to fight rape myths—that if a woman gets raped it’s somehow her fault, that she welcomed it in some way. But the same conversation needs to happen for men. By portraying sexual violence against men as aberrant, we prevent justice and compound the shame. And the conversation about men doesn’t need to shut down the one about women. “Compassion,” she says, “is not a finite resource.”

-Blackadder- fucked around with this message at 01:46 on Nov 22, 2017

Catfishenfuego
Oct 21, 2008

Moist With Indignation

-Blackadder- posted:

Then for your sake I hope neither you nor anyone you care about ever have to experience the "male privilege" of being sexually assaulted in prison, an issue, by the way, so hilariously ignored it makes the too often ignored in the past sexual assault of women look like the OJ Simpson Trial coverage.

Anyone who thinks sexual harassment and assault are gendered issues is an ignorant loving jackass really needs to educate themselves.

They're super gendered issues, as evidenced by the fact that even male victims of sexual assault are overwhelmingly victimized by other men who use feminized language to describe their victims and women (trans or cis) in prison are massively more likely to be sexually assaulted. Like these are quotes straight from one of your sources.

quote:

"Being raped, or “turned out,” he explained, redefines the male victim “as a ‘female’ in this perverse subculture, and he must assume that role as the ‘property’ of his conqueror or whoever claimed him and arranged his emasculation. He becomes a slave in the fullest sense of the term.”

"This inmate referred to him as Stephanie and forced him to wear makeup and shave his legs. It was not a rare scenario."

"John says some of the officers would even make jokes, calling him a “fag,” a “girl,” and a “bust-down.”"

"LBGTQ individuals, particularly transgender women in male prison populations, are especially vulnerable to sexual assault and victimization in prison. In the name of their safety, these victims are often isolated or placed in solitary confinement, which, as Law told me, only “ensures physical safety and the expense of mental safety.” Meanwhile, women are 30 times more likely to become a victim of sexual assault in prison compared to on the outside."

Catfishenfuego fucked around with this message at 01:38 on Nov 22, 2017

Basebf555
Feb 29, 2008

The greatest sensual pleasure there is is to know the desires of another!

Fun Shoe
Nobody should be sexually assaulted under any circumstances, do I really have to state that?

But this thread is about discussion of the widespread harassment and abuse in Hollywood and also the workplace in general. So I don't think that the assault of prison inmates is really relevant, and yes I do believe that there are many, many more men abusing their position in the workplace to hit on women than the reverse. Part of it is simply that there are still a bunch of industries that are totally dominated by men.

esperterra
Mar 24, 2010

SHINee's back




I just think with the current spotlight on sexual harassment and assault, it will do more damage than good to act like it's only ever men who do this poo poo. There is a huge stigma on men about coming forward with this stuff, especially when it's a woman who abused them and not a man. That stigma needs to go away.

All victims need to be heard and people need to realize that women have the capacity to be just as terrible as men when put in positions of power.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, I personally find it degrading when people act as if women can only be victims in these situations. We're not all wilting flowers or whatever, there are many of us who are loving awful and a spotlight should be shone on them just as brightly as on awful men.

That said, I do understand that yeah, it's mostly men we're hearing about and will continue to. But that's not because women are blameless. It's just because there are more men in those powerful, abusable positions.

TheKingofSprings
Oct 9, 2012

DrVenkman posted:

Though they're far from ironclad, Jeremy Piven voluntarily submitted himself to, and passed, a polygraph test in his accusation case.

Aren't there actual courses about how to fake those?

esperterra
Mar 24, 2010

SHINee's back




Yeah, gently caress polygraph tests.

Vegetable
Oct 22, 2010

There are articles about how Lasseter’s resignation casts a pall over the release of Coco. It’s really, really lovely to have the misdeeds of a white man undermine whatever good there is for underrepresented groups. It’s the same thing for Transparent.

21 Muns
Dec 10, 2016

by FactsAreUseless

Vegetable posted:

There are articles about how Lasseter’s resignation casts a pall over the release of Coco. It’s really, really lovely to have the misdeeds of a white man undermine whatever good there is for underrepresented groups. It’s the same thing for Transparent.

IMO anyone who supports the women of the animation industry should buy tickets to Coco and burn them. That way, you're supporting all of the talented Mexican and Latino artists who worked on the film, but you're also sending Disney a clear message. They let this happen for years and they can't come out of this thinking that that was acceptable.

Calaveron
Aug 7, 2006
:negative:

21 Muns posted:

IMO anyone who supports the women of the animation industry should buy tickets to Coco and burn them. That way, you're supporting all of the talented Mexican and Latino artists who worked on the film, but you're also sending Disney a clear message. They let this happen for years and they can't come out of this thinking that that was acceptable.

Disney don't give s poo poo if you already paid for the ticket

Maxwell Lord
Dec 12, 2008

I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.


:smith:

Grimey Drawer
Yes the Keurig protests prove that paying money for something then destroying it works

sleep with the vicious
Apr 2, 2010

21 Muns posted:

IMO anyone who supports the women of the animation industry should buy tickets to Coco and burn them. That way, you're supporting all of the talented Mexican and Latino artists who worked on the film, but you're also sending Disney a clear message. They let this happen for years and they can't come out of this thinking that that was acceptable.

That would be the lamest protest ever

Also I in no way believe that you will do that

Len
Jan 21, 2008

Pouches, bandages, shoulderpad, cyber-eye...

Bitchin'!


21 Muns posted:

IMO anyone who supports the women of the animation industry should buy tickets to Coco and burn them. That way, you're supporting all of the talented Mexican and Latino artists who worked on the film, but you're also sending Disney a clear message. They let this happen for years and they can't come out of this thinking that that was acceptable.

I'm planning to go to the theater this weekend and use my movie pass to see it and probably enjoy it. I'm not sure how spending money in support of a product but then not seeing the paid for product works.

Barry Convex
Sep 1, 2005

Think of the good things, Pim! The good things!

Like Jesus, candy, and crackerjacks! Ice cream and cake and lots o'laffs!
Grandma, Grandpa, and Uncle Joe! Larry, Curly, and brother Moe!
Lasseter kinda puts Brenda Chapman's firing from Brave in a different light, no?

got any sevens
Feb 9, 2013

by Cyrano4747
Is lassiter still the boss of disney?

DC Murderverse
Nov 10, 2016

"Tell that to Zod's snapped neck!"

got any sevens posted:

Is lassiter still the boss of disney?

Head of Disney Animation, so yeah. He's not Iger but he's a very important person regardless. Which, gently caress him, so i hope he loses his job. It might be smart for Disney to bring in an outside name for the next head of animation, honestly.

Metis of the Chat Thread
Aug 1, 2014


Barry Convex posted:

Lasseter kinda puts Brenda Chapman's firing from Brave in a different light, no?

Like with so many of these stories, it explains a whole lot about the trajectory of women's careers in Hollywood.

(And in most fields, of course)

precision
May 7, 2006

by VideoGames

dont even fink about it posted:

Not only are they not ironclad, they're worthless.

Passing a polygraph is as simple as taking a Xanax and clenching your rear end in a top hat. Literally.

John Wick of Dogs
Mar 4, 2017

A real hellraiser


This also works for Wonder Woman's lasso of Truth.

DrVenkman
Dec 28, 2005

I think he can hear you, Ray.
I mean one the key pieces in the Perrenieu accusation is that she also took a polygraph. But hey, they're worthless right?

I wouldn't even say they're worthless. They're definitely innacurate to a degree, which is why for a lot of cases they're inadmissible. But it also depends on the type of Polygraph and what the point of it is.

precision
May 7, 2006

by VideoGames

DrVenkman posted:

I mean one the key pieces in the Perrenieu accusation is that she also took a polygraph. But hey, they're worthless right?

There are degrees of worth to them. It's generally harder to false pass a polygraph question asking "did this person do this to you" than a question asking "did you do this to this person".

Basebf555
Feb 29, 2008

The greatest sensual pleasure there is is to know the desires of another!

Fun Shoe
Polygraphs aren't really useful unless they're one piece of an all encompassing investigation(like how law enforcement uses them). If you just want to be able to ask someone a question and be able to trust that they're answering honestly without having to look into the matter any further, no polygraphs aren't really worth much.

If the cops are looking at someone for a crime and they fail a polygraph they don't automatically go "Ok that's enough, charge this rear end in a top hat", it's just a tool to help narrow the focus of the investigation. It's similar to psychological profiling, it's no magic bullet but if it's used in combination with good old fashioned police work it can be useful.

Timeless Appeal
May 28, 2006

esperterra posted:

I just think with the current spotlight on sexual harassment and assault, it will do more damage than good to act like it's only ever men who do this poo poo. There is a huge stigma on men about coming forward with this stuff, especially when it's a woman who abused them and not a man. That stigma needs to go away.
The problem is that while sexual abuse isn't unique to men it is a men's problem in the same way not just white people are racist but racism is a white people problem. Men who have been abused or women who've been abused by other women obviously should not feel excluded from the conversation. But there is a difference between inclusion of all victims and responding to the statement of "sexual abuse is a men's problem" with "Um, technically..."

I think your statement that women would be sexually abusing, harassing, and humiliating others just as equally if given the same position of power rings pretty false. While Hollywood is patriarchal, there are enough women in power that if your statement were true we'd have a lot more examples of it. The fact that we've seen women be shitheels in terms of systematically fostering the culture that leads to this poo poo actually supports this point.

Toplowtech
Aug 31, 2004

Timeless Appeal posted:

The fact that we've seen women be shitheels in terms of systematically fostering the culture that leads to this poo poo actually supports this point.
There is definitively an economic factor to that, limiting it to a pure cultural thing may not be the best way to deal with it.

Tornhelm
Jul 26, 2008

Timeless Appeal posted:

The problem is that while sexual abuse isn't unique to men it is a men's problem in the same way not just white people are racist but racism is a white people problem. Men who have been abused or women who've been abused by other women obviously should not feel excluded from the conversation. But there is a difference between inclusion of all victims and responding to the statement of "sexual abuse is a men's problem" with "Um, technically..."

I think your statement that women would be sexually abusing, harassing, and humiliating others just as equally if given the same position of power rings pretty false. While Hollywood is patriarchal, there are enough women in power that if your statement were true we'd have a lot more examples of it. The fact that we've seen women be shitheels in terms of systematically fostering the culture that leads to this poo poo actually supports this point.

Except would we? There's a lot more stigma against a man saying they were raped by anyone compared to a woman saying so, and this is reinforced by everything from machismo to society in general treating it as only a problem for women. Just look at this whole situation. How many men have come forward compared to women when we know due to Epstein that it was definitely not uncommon for boys to be raped there too.

esperterra
Mar 24, 2010

SHINee's back




Anyone who honestly thinks there aren't female producers/etc out there using their position of power to gently caress hot young men probably doesn't know much about women. Even if they're indeed not assaulting/raping them as often as men do, does that not still count as an inappropriate situation?

Or are female bosses allowed to sleep with and date employees without impunity, and it's only an abuse of power if men do it?

precision
May 7, 2006

by VideoGames

Timeless Appeal posted:

I think your statement that women would be sexually abusing, harassing, and humiliating others just as equally if given the same position of power rings pretty false.

Um... no.

People are hosed up. People in positions of power do hosed up things. I have personally experienced it. It's sexist as gently caress to say what you're saying.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007

Timeless Appeal posted:

I think your statement that women would be sexually abusing, harassing, and humiliating others just as equally if given the same position of power rings pretty false.


Women are people. They are not not magical pure beings of fairy and light who never do anything bad. People in positions of power, regardless of gender, will exploit that in a variety of ways. That doesn't change the systemic abuse faced by women nor does it deny that women are at a massive disadvantage due to social bullshit in the workplace, but it's pretty hosed up to pretend like there's some purity bullshit going on here.

The reason we don't see more of it is because there are relatively few women in position of power and they do not enjoy the same protection that male abusers do which makes it harder for the same foul "oh well just keep your legs crossed when he comes by" sort of attitude to form. Treating women like they are not people and can't actually do things wrong is pretty hosed up and dismissive of the victims (which are certainly not exclusively male) of women who abuse others.

This is even discounting the fact that abuse by women tends not to be viewed the same way and is often discounted or (shamefully) lauded as a good thing. I doubt there isn't a single one of us here who doesn't know someone who was touched inappropriately by a woman at a party or bar or something and whose friend's response to it was a shrug or a compliment.

Timeless Appeal
May 28, 2006

precision posted:

Um... no.

People are hosed up. People in positions of power do hosed up things. I have personally experienced it. It's sexist as gently caress to say what you're saying.
That's not really the argument though. Women are capable of being lovely. A lot of the stories we are hearing speak to a level of complicity at the very least among women. There are statistics around woman on woman sexual abuse that support what you guys are saying. And yes, women can and have raped, assaulted, and harassed men. And yes society has been predictably lovely to those men.

But that can still be true, and the majority of rape and harassment victims can still be women. I'm sorry, but even citing underreporting of male rape as well as factoring in woman on woman sexual abuse does not make up the gap especially when women also underreport. Acknowledging that the cases of sexual harassment and abuse that we are hearing from Hollywood are almost exclusively male, acknowledging that, as far as we know, women are over three more likely to be raped than men and four times more likely to be sexually harassed than men isn't "being sexist as gently caress."

But trying to steer the conversation into one that is exclusively about power is not okay. We can be inclusive to the stories of male survivors and also understand that this issue not only disproportionately impacts women but the gender dynamics of our broader society.


esperterra posted:

Anyone who honestly thinks there aren't female producers/etc out there using their position of power to gently caress hot young men probably doesn't know much about women. Even if they're indeed not assaulting/raping them as often as men do, does that not still count as an inappropriate situation?

Or are female bosses allowed to sleep with and date employees without impunity, and it's only an abuse of power if men do it?
Look dude, I think the last question you're asking is what makes me uneasy. Like obviously the answer is no and obviously the answer to your first question is yes. But I think it's a question that can easily take away from the more important question of how do we fix this and muddle the seriousness of this issue.

Timeless Appeal fucked around with this message at 23:16 on Nov 22, 2017

esperterra
Mar 24, 2010

SHINee's back




I just hate seeing people brush aside the fact that women do these things as well. We can't fix this situation if we're acting like half of the problem doesn't exist, or that the male half of the problem is somehow worse than when women do it.

HUNDU THE BEAST GOD
Sep 14, 2007

everything is yours

esperterra posted:

I just hate seeing people brush aside the fact that women do these things as well. We can't fix this situation if we're acting like half of the problem doesn't exist, or that the male half of the problem is somehow worse than when women do it.

I think what people more react to is that the offenses are wildly disproportionate.

esperterra
Mar 24, 2010

SHINee's back




The known ones are. Again, there's a bigger stigma on men coming forward than there is with women. I think we should be pushing harder for men to talk about their abuses as well as women, especially while we have a spotlight on the assholes doing this poo poo.

e: and sorry for getting kind of heated, but as a vagina haver this whole trend lately of women can do no wrong (not just in this sex assault situation, either) offends me like mad

esperterra fucked around with this message at 23:25 on Nov 22, 2017

Timeless Appeal
May 28, 2006

esperterra posted:

I just hate seeing people brush aside the fact that women do these things as well. We can't fix this situation if we're acting like half of the problem doesn't exist, or that the male half of the problem is somehow worse than when women do it.
Look, taking your argument in good faith, that is fair. Male victims and male victims of rape need to be treated the same as female victims. The fact that we have had male victims pay their female rapists child support is disgusting.

But the problem is that often what you're saying and asking is used as a deflection tool from the discussion of female rape/harassment/assault and how it is used as tool of disenfranchisement of women. That makes me uneasy. We need to have both conversations. But this conversation is about abuses in Hollywood, and I don't think I'm being naive by imaging some theoretical female producer committing sexual misconduct. And in that context at least it is by and large a male problem.

Basebf555
Feb 29, 2008

The greatest sensual pleasure there is is to know the desires of another!

Fun Shoe
This whole thing is stupid. Recently a whole lot of prominent men in show business have been accused of these kind of offenses. So, in a post about that issue, I said "men need to..." instead of also including women in the sentence. Another poster took issue with that and said I should have included both genders in my post.

The stories coming out have all been about men, and so I said "men". That's really all this is about but go ahead and run wild with it I guess.

esperterra
Mar 24, 2010

SHINee's back




Basebf555 posted:

When women in positions of power sexually harassing men in the workplace is a major widespread problem then we can focus on that. Right now I'm ok with saying that men are the primary issue here.

To be fair, this was your response to my initial post and this is what I ran with.

Basebf555
Feb 29, 2008

The greatest sensual pleasure there is is to know the desires of another!

Fun Shoe

esperterra posted:

To be fair, this was your response to my initial post and this is what I ran with.

And now we're off into debating what women would do if they were in men's position. It's dumb because that's a fantasy scenario where we're pretending that the last X number of decades/centuries didn't happen where men have dominated everything and for the most part had power over women(and as we're finding out, still do).

So you can argue about all that all you want, and of course any time sexual assault happens its a heinous crime, but right now we're in a thread that was created to talk about a problem almost exclusively created by men.

Uncle Boogeyman
Jul 22, 2007

The majority of offenders are indeed men and sexism/gender imbalance is at the root of this whole Hollywood thing, but I'm more or less with esperterra on this, I mean there was just that whole thing with the lady from Smallville who was running a sex slavery ring, and stuff like the recent, completely insane saga of Thinx CEO MikI Agrawal does kinda puncture the idea that women bosses are necessarily less inclined to abuse their power in these ways

Edit: the article I linked was mostly about how terribly she ran the company, should've linked to this one which was about the sexual harassment allegations (although the other one is also highly recommended reading)

Uncle Boogeyman fucked around with this message at 23:53 on Nov 22, 2017

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

precision
May 7, 2006

by VideoGames

Basebf555 posted:

And now we're off into debating what women would do if they were in men's position.

No, we're not. Or at least I'm not, and I don't think esperterra is either. There is no debate because we know that women in positions of power do the same poo poo. I know this from personal experience. A former boss of mine did things to me that were, make no mistake, far worse than what Louis CK did, far worse than what Al Franken did, far worse than even what Spacey did to Rapp.

Nobody is discounting that there are more men in power in certain fields, especially Hollywood.

  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • Post
  • Reply