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Rarity posted:I know the answer is 'lol WCW' but why would they want to gently caress with one of their biggest stars? I recommend highly to check out Death of WCW. As others said, Herd, for some odd reason, hated Flair. IIRC from the book I think it had to do with how much Flair was making, I think he was pretty highly paid and Herd was basically a Terminator focused on cutting costs. Plus Flair didn't respect a lot of his stupid as gently caress rules.
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Nov 25, 2017 23:26
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Get the tenth anniversary edition of The Death of WCW, though. It has more info in it, and now Bryan and RD can source their quotes since people aren't afraid of not getting a job with Vince 'cause they talked to the sheets.
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Nov 25, 2017 23:40
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Thanks to Vince Russo, people forget just how incompetent Jim Herd was and just how much he alienated all of the JCP mainstays. He even drove away one of JCP's biggest cheerleaders, Jim Cornette. Also holy poo poo was Tully a good heel. His dad owned the promotion he started in and he knew how to channel people's loathing for nepotism so well. I never really thought any of the other Horsemen combos were quite as heelish without Tully.
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Nov 26, 2017 00:06
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My favorite Herd rule was not allowing family backstage. There was literally no good reason why, Herd was just a miserable rear end who wanted OL SCHOOL WRASLING or some poo poo.
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Nov 26, 2017 00:13
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Oh sure, when WWE pushes people in their late-30s to the top, they're idiots who aren't thinking about the future, but Jim Herd tries to get rid of some 42 year old and he's a horrible rear end in a top hat.
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Nov 26, 2017 01:22
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rare Magic card l00k posted:Oh sure, when WWE pushes people in their late-30s to the top, they're idiots who aren't thinking about the future, but Jim Herd tries to get rid of some 42 year old and he's a horrible rear end in a top hat. Ric Flair was still the top draw in the company.
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Nov 26, 2017 01:39
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Randaconda posted:Ric Flair was still the top draw in the company. EDIT: I had to check, but 1989 was an amazing year for Flair. The Ricky Steamboat feud, then the Terry Funk feud. Jesus.
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Nov 26, 2017 01:39
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Randaconda posted:Ric Flair was still the top draw in the company. People have been complaining about WWE needing to think about the future instead of pushing Cena since he was 35.
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Nov 26, 2017 01:41
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OldTennisCourt posted:My favorite Herd rule was not allowing family backstage. Herd's sole wrestling connection had been station manager where Wrestling at the Chase was broadcast in St. Louis. He didn't know much about the business. Herd's only old-school approach was being a skinflint. He was the one who came up with the Ding Dongs, Hunchbacks, Big Josh, Norman and a whole load of horrible, horrible gimmicks.
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Nov 26, 2017 01:43
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rare Magic card l00k posted:People have been complaining about WWE needing to think about the future instead of pushing Cena since he was 35. Times were different back then.
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Nov 26, 2017 01:46
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RC and Moon Pie posted:Herd's sole wrestling connection had been station manager where Wrestling at the Chase was broadcast in St. Louis. He didn't know much about the business. Norman at least had a good match with Cactus
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Nov 26, 2017 01:46
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Randaconda posted:EDIT: I had to check, but 1989 was an amazing year for Flair. The Ricky Steamboat feud, then the Terry Funk feud. Jesus. Flair & Steamboat had a goddamn trilogy of absolutely top tier title matches in 89.
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Nov 26, 2017 01:52
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RC and Moon Pie posted:Herd's sole wrestling connection had been station manager where Wrestling at the Chase was broadcast in St. Louis. He didn't know much about the business. Didn't he also ban all top rope moves? As I recall they all became instant DQ or something and his reason was "They'll have more impact!" That sure was cool for the cruiserweights
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Nov 26, 2017 02:00
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OldTennisCourt posted:Didn't he also ban all top rope moves? As I recall they all became instant DQ or something and his reason was "They'll have more impact!" Pretty sure that was Bill Watts. Who hadn't watched any wrestling since he sold UWF and so was completely out of touch how much things had changed.
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Nov 26, 2017 02:08
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rare Magic card l00k posted:Oh sure, when WWE pushes people in their late-30s to the top, they're idiots who aren't thinking about the future, but Jim Herd tries to get rid of some 42 year old and he's a horrible rear end in a top hat. You can't use Ric Flair as an example, because he's an extraordinary outlier - arguably the greatest Professional Wrestler who ever lived (and thankfully, still lives).
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Nov 26, 2017 02:09
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On one of Flair's dvds, he talks about hiring some young dude to drive his limo, and at the time, the Hoursemen were so over the kid was basically scoring every night, just from driving the limo.
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Nov 26, 2017 03:15
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Rarity posted:Read the thread title Yeah, the movie/match thing was a PPV. Wikipedia posted:No Holds Barred: The Match/The Movie was a professional wrestling event, shown on pay-per-view (PPV) on December 27, 1989 by the World Wrestling Federation (WWF).
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Nov 26, 2017 03:16
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Randaconda posted:Didn't the Road Warriors go to that same high school? Wikipedia and all, but from a quick glance it appears that they didn't. However, many other wrestling luminaries did attend the same high school and around the same time as Mr. Perfect and The Ravishing One: Tom Zenk, Brady Boone, Nikita Koloff, John Nord (aka Nord the Barbarian), and Barry Darsow (Demolition Smash, Krusher Khruschev, Repo Man, The Blacktop Bully, and many other names). Randaconda posted:Tully was an amazing heel back in the day. I've been listening to a bunch of Jim Cornette's shoot stuff, and in one of them he talks about how Tully was such a natural heel because it was basically just an extension of his actual personality at the time. From what Cornette says, it wasn't much of a stretch for Tully to play an rear end in a top hat in wrestling, because he often was one. IIRC, Cornette talks about how he and Tully got into an argument in the heels' locker room one day, which escalated to the point where Tully slapped him (though I think they long since patched things up). RC and Moon Pie posted:Herd's sole wrestling connection had been station manager where Wrestling at the Chase was broadcast in St. Louis. He didn't know much about the business. Apologies for continuing the "Death of WCW" derail, but Herd was basically only given the job because his wife and his boss' wife were best friends. He knew nothing about wrestling (IIRC, prior to the WCW job, he was a regional manager for Pizza Hut), and from many accounts was one of those managers who think that they can get what they want from their subordinates by just yelling and screaming a lot. Which might get Pizza Hut store managers quaking in their shoes, but did absolutely nothing to guys like Flair or Cornette (except make them eventually just quit).
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Nov 26, 2017 03:26
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rare Magic card l00k posted:People have been complaining about WWE needing to think about the future instead of pushing Cena since he was 35. Circumstances were different. Flair was the single biggest wrestler who wasn't in the WWF, and while WCW had Turner behind them now and weren't quite as desperate as they had been, this was still no time to alienate a star like that. Build up other people, sure, but hang on to your assets.
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Nov 26, 2017 03:29
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Maxwell Lord posted:Circumstances were different. Flair was the single biggest wrestler who wasn't in the WWF, and while WCW had Turner behind them now and weren't quite as desperate as they had been, this was still no time to alienate a star like that. Build up other people, sure, but hang on to your assets. Yeah, there's a difference between phasing Tanahashi or Cena down the card, and firing them so they can be a draw for the competition.
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Nov 26, 2017 03:42
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Gaz-L posted:Yeah, there's a difference between phasing Tanahashi or Cena down the card, and firing them so they can be a draw for the competition. And prior to firing them, telling them to change their look completely, and adopt a Spartacus gimmick in order to "get with the times". 
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Nov 26, 2017 04:00
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Tanahashi? Cut his hair? That would be ridiculous!
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Nov 26, 2017 04:01
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I think there was another aspect to Flair, which is that he was a heel; yes he was an icon and almost transcended the whole "face/heel" divide, but he was someone fans could cheer or boo depending on his opponent and at the end of the day when you have a heel champion their job is to make the babyfaces into stars. Conversely, babyface champions (at least WWE babyfaces) are big hungry maws of destruction that you feed heels to, invariably killing any momentum and leaving them wallowing in the midcard after their brief main event run. They don't make stars, they kill stars. So the whole "go away Cena" thing makes a lot more sense, especially from the IWC, when folks want a variety of characters to support instead of "The guy" who gets shoved down their throats.
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Nov 26, 2017 06:18
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OldTennisCourt posted:Didn't he also ban all top rope moves? As I recall they all became instant DQ or something and his reason was "They'll have more impact!" Watts was the guy who banned families backstage and moves off the top rope. And when Liger came in for a tour, he was like "gently caress it" and started doing moonsaults off the second rope. Jushin don't give a gently caress. RC and Moon Pie posted:Herd's only old-school approach was being a skinflint. He was the one who came up with the Ding Dongs, Hunchbacks, Big Josh, Norman and a whole load of horrible, horrible gimmicks. The funny thing is, Norman turned face and really started to get over. Then Herd left, and he was buried.
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Nov 26, 2017 16:11
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Who was it that had the idea to tie performance to bonuses? Like the better you worked a match the more you got paid. I remember it worked pretty great from an in ring perspective but the finances were hurting bad. I think that was who Herd replaced since he had such a hard on for cutting costs.
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Nov 26, 2017 16:50
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OldTennisCourt posted:Who was it that had the idea to tie performance to bonuses? Like the better you worked a match the more you got paid. I remember it worked pretty great from an in ring perspective but the finances were hurting bad. I think that was who Herd replaced since he had such a hard on for cutting costs. Kip Frye; Watts actually replaced him which led to the massive de-push of the Cruiserweights who had flourished under Frye, especially Brian Pillman who was on the verge of a huge push and under Watts became the highest paid jobber in the business.
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Nov 26, 2017 17:18
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Jerusalem posted:You can't use Ric Flair as an example, because he's an extraordinary outlier - arguably the greatest Professional Wrestler who ever lived (and thankfully, still lives). Ehh back then 40s was largely considered your peak drawing period.
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Nov 26, 2017 19:32
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Renaissance Spam posted:Kip Frye; Watts actually replaced him which led to the massive de-push of the Cruiserweights who had flourished under Frye, especially Brian Pillman who was on the verge of a huge push and under Watts became the highest paid jobber in the business. Sometimes I think about what would have happened if Frye had actually been given a chance to succeed. I don't think he was canny enough to have turned things around, especially in that environment for the industry. But of all the guys Ted Turner put in charge of WCW he was the only one who seemed to be looking forwards and showed enthusiasm for the product until Bischoff.
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Nov 27, 2017 02:13
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rare Magic card l00k posted:People have been complaining about WWE needing to think about the future instead of pushing Cena since he was 35. WCW had people other than Flair, though, at least in those days. He was their top draw, but they weren't completely boned without him. Meanwhile, if Cena retires or gets a career-ending injury or dies, there's probably no WWE anymore within a year.
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Nov 27, 2017 03:17
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LORD OF BOOTY posted:WCW had people other than Flair, though, at least in those days. He was their top draw, but they weren't completely boned without him. Cena's barely been present the last year and he's been a midcarder for the last four Wrestlemania. What other draw did WCW have in the early 90s? Sting was a flop on top and Luger had only drawn vs Flair.
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Nov 27, 2017 03:33
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LORD OF BOOTY posted:WCW had people other than Flair, though, at least in those days. He was their top draw, but they weren't completely boned without him. Considering he's barely around these days I doubt the veracity of your statement.
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Nov 27, 2017 03:34
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LORD OF BOOTY posted:WCW had people other than Flair, though, at least in those days. He was their top draw, but they weren't completely boned without him. The main difference is the brand WCW wasn't a draw like WWE is. WWE will be fine to an extent due to its name value.
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Nov 27, 2017 04:06
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LORD OF BOOTY posted:Meanwhile, if Cena retires or gets a career-ending injury or dies, there's probably no WWE anymore within a year. El Hijo del Perro Aguayo died when he was seemingly more valuable to AAA than Cena was to the WWE, and somehow they’re still around, so I kinda doubt that. If Cena dies, he’ll just be replaced by Roman Reigns, as he already was. e: also, I thought to myself ‘why didn’t Tully and/or Arn just go to AJPW?’ but tbh he probably didn’t want to/they might’ve also upheld the ban, idk Venomous fucked around with this message at 10:05 on Nov 27, 2017 |
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Nov 27, 2017 09:58
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No Holds Barred: I Have The Worst Ideas What I Think I Know
 It's Christmas 1989, little Rarity is unwrapping Legos and across the Atlantic our old friend Vince McMahon is also presenting something equally as painful when you stumble on it in the middle of the night, it's No Holds Barred: The Match, The Movie! I first realised that this was a PPV back when I was in the middle of 1988. 'Sure', I figured, 'I can do a review of that. The PSPeeps won't expect it and I can clown on a crappy movie, it'll be fun'. Well, Past Rarity is a dick and not to be trusted. This is a PPV so bad it's not even on the WWE Network. I had to watch a lovely VHS rip that I found on Dailymotion which had heavy audio desync for a good half of the show. This show is Hornswoggle's bastard step-brother that Vince would like to forget. We are not live from the Nashville Municipal Auditorium in Nashville, TN because even Vince knows no one's paying good money for this show over Christmas. Due to the radical nature of this show we begin with Zombie Mean Gene who welcomes us and talks us through the plan for the night. We've got a movie, we've got a match, it's pretty much what it says on the tin.  Somehow the graphic designer gets the cage going through Burtus's arm Down to ringside now where Tony Schiavone is watching the construction of the cage. He builds up the tension as he runs through the rules and describes the destruction and devastation that we're about to witness. Mate, I've just seen Shane McMahon throw himself off the top of Hell in a Cell. You're going to have to a bit better than ten feet of rickety plastic. And now here we are, the moment you've all been carefully clenching your buttocks for, it's time for No Holds Barred: the Movie! ...I'm sorry. The opening credits roll with the sound of Zombie Mean Gene and Jesse Ventura providing commentary for some kind of WWF show. We are somewhere in America and Hulk Hogan walks out as the WWF champion, RIP HUNTER. So Hulk is really stretching his acting skills here. The movie goes all slo-mo as he walks down the entrance roaring like a lion. He's got a couple of jabronis on hand: a black mentor who's name never comes up and his little pipsqueak of a brother, Randy. We get a brief shot of our commentators and Jesse, you magnificent bastard. Even here, even on No Holds Barred, you find a way.  Yes, despite this being a deformed excuse of a PPV Jesse still manages to show off his crazy notion of fashion. That's just the kind of dedication that this man has. He's got the zebra print leather jacket again and joy of joys, the Cleopatra headdress from WM2 makes its long-awaited return to the thread accompanied with a black and white headband.  I'm betting Jesse walked into wardrobe and the lady just went 'Yeah, you're good to go' Rip is out to defend the WWF Title against the #1 contender, Jake Mallet, a name so bad it has to have come from FCW. The match begins and Rip opens up with a hiptoss. So we already know that he's a better worker than Hulk. Jake responds with an elbow and puts Rip in a sleeper hold while somewhere some rich men in fancy suits watch all this unfurl on TV. They couldn't be screaming 'we're the bad guys' any louder if they were drinking brandy and smoking cigars. As for the match, Rip seems to have based his wrestling style on somebody we know all too well. Jake continues to beat on Rip but Rip starts hulking up and connects with a big boot. Where did you pick up this unique moveset, Rip? Ok fair enough, Rip finishes with an axe handle rather than the Leg Drop but we are essentially watching Hulk plays himself. As if that wasn't already clear. By the way, the editing for all this is completely horrendous. It's choppy and fast and flailing and it makes me want to hurl. It's like if a cameraman for Raw had ADHD. SIGN OF THE NIGHT  Who says I can't do surrealist comedy? In the boardroom of the WTN the evil suits are sat around listening to the rantings the chief evil suit. He's mad because the WWF is hammering them in the ratings and they are coming in dead last. Ah, so this must be Ted Turner. Gotcha. Ted has a solution to reverse his fortunes though, he's going to get Rip on their network. That'll put bums in seats, brother! MOST HOMOEROTIC MOMENT Ted Turner: “Every time this jockass decides to strip down to his sweet nothings and wallow around with some sweathog we eat it!” One of the lady execs suggests that they run a high concept sitcom instead so Ted tells her to take a leak. One of the guys floats of the idea of a primetime game show but Ted's not up for that either. Sure, cause How I Met Your Mother and Who Wants To Be A Millionaire? never brought in the ratings. I think I have a hunch why these guys are currently last in the ratings. Ted has set his heart firmly on Rip but someone points out Rip's already got a contract and his word is his bond. Not to mention his legal obligation. However, Ted follows the DiBiase school of thought because he thinks everybody's got a price.  Your designated 'simpering idiot' for this movie Ted has managed to arrange a face-to-face with Rip but when Ted makes the contract offer Rip turns it down. I really don't get the logic here. If Ted was desperate to have Rip on his network then couldn't just wheel up a truck of money to Vince McMahon's doorstep to buy a WWF show? Again, I think I've figured out why his ratings are tanking so bad. Judging by his sense of business their prime time show is probably a monkey pooping onto a glass table. Ted offers Rip a blank cheque but Rip turns it down and oh my god, Hulk's acting is so wooden. He doesn't know how to do anything that's not fighting and he barely knows that. Ted starts to get mad so Rip shoves the cheque down his throat. At least it's not as bad as negotiating new contracts with Vince. For his way back home Rip has been set up with a driver from Ted and I'm afraid to say it is here, as Rip enters the car, that he commits the greatest crime. That's right, friends. Rip Hunter, the WWF champion, idol to millions of children, elects not to wear a seat belt. Just what kind of example are you setting, Rip? It's going to be especially necessary when the driver takes the car the wrong way and starts careening around the road smashing into things. Oh yes, this is a kidnap attempt by the way. You already knew that though. The car runs through a stand and 20mph and totally levels it. But there was money in the banana stand! The car comes to a stop in a dark garage where a bunch of goons dutifully roll up to be buttstomped. They surround the car when all of a sudden Rip honest to goodness explodes through the top of the car. Sure, built to withstand a interstate pile-up but destroyed by one punch from Rip Hunter. Sure. He starts to beat up the goons as jamming 80s hair rock blasts over the soundtrack. Oh my god. How does this exist? With all the goons down Rip starts pacing around the car snarling like a dog while the driver literally shits his pants. No, seriously, I mean HE LITERALLY SHITS HIS PANTS. Rip pulls him out the car and sniffs and asks what the smell is and the guy says it's “dookie...”. And then we get a full-on closeup of his poo poo-stained trousers.   Vince is laughing his rear end off right now HOW THE gently caress DOES THIS EXIST? Number of Times Rarity Considered Abandoning This Project: 5
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Nov 27, 2017 13:05
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The guy Rip was fighting in the first match, Jake Bullet, was Ax of Demolition
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Nov 27, 2017 13:48
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And No Holds Barred only gets "better" from there!
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Nov 27, 2017 14:03
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So, I listen to a ton of podcasts, and one of which is one called We Hate Movies. They essentially do a 60-90min weekly episode about bad moves. They have done over 300 at this point, including all of the Transformers, Super Mario Bros, and the Running Man, just to name a few. Early on, they did No Holds Barred, and it is pretty amazing. I highly suggest everyone give it a listen, although since this movie update is going to be done in multiple parts, it's gonna be spoilers if you have never seen the movie. https://ia800309.us.archive.org/10/items/Episode50-NoHoldsBarred/NoHoldsBarred.mp3
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Nov 27, 2017 14:34
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If I remember right, didn't Hogan and Vince sit down one night, do a shitload of blow and then wrote the script to No Holds Barred in a couple of hours?
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Nov 27, 2017 22:59
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Jerusalem posted:If I remember right, didn't Hogan and Vince sit down one night, do a shitload of blow and then wrote the script to No Holds Barred in a couple of hours? I thought it was an entire weekend in a hotel room. Either way, it's one of those stories that totally isn't legit but every fiber of my being wants it to be.
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Nov 27, 2017 23:30
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Yeah, I'm thinking Jesse's film career (such as it was. I liked him in Predator) was in little danger from the Hulkster
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Nov 28, 2017 15:41
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