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Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8HRYP92O994 Feels appropriate.

There's a kind of goofiness to kaiju names, much like superheroes, where it's hard to recreate it nowadays; mostly the janky and often garbled translations from Japanese where the first name tends to stick regardless of how it turns out. They didn't really try with the MUTOs. King Kong has its own history from retrospectively problematic Darkest Continent pulp, but it's stuck hard in popular culture.

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K. Waste
Feb 27, 2014

MORAL:
To the vector belong the spoils.

LORD OF BOOTY posted:

Nah, it's sort of like if we called a monster "Whalerilla."

Except it's not, because go does not mean "gorilla," and jira does not mean "whale."

For another example from Mothra: the name of the fictional country "Rolisika," does not mean "Russia-America." It means Rolisika. That's the name of the place. The word "Rolisika" is a portmanteau, referring to both Russia and America, but does not embody either of these real places. It refers to them at a symbolic level, not literal. When the writers thought of "Rolisika," this can not be translated to them thinking of "Russia-America." There is no translation necessary. The name is unique unto itself.

With Mothra/Mosura, we merely have a case where Tezca has literally imagined that it more or less means "Big Moth," even though "big" appears nowhere in the name. The etymological route to "Mothra" is not "Moth + big," it is "Moth + ra." "Moth"/"Mosl" is a foreign word, implying the exotic and alien; whereas "ra" is wholly generic, existing specifically to distinguish the name "Mothra" in the mind from the actual, literal "moth." "Mothra" does not mean "Big Moth." Mothra is big, but the word "big" is nowhere in the character, it has nothing to do with how the name was formulated.

Again, words have meaning. Tezca's trouble is that he is trying to insist that these monster names are just as uninspired as their Western equivalent, and thus inevitably falls into false equivalency. He assumes that the implication of "big" is buried somewhere in the name "Mothra," not because of the word, but because the subject. Mothra is big, therefore Mothra means "big moth."

Waffleman_ posted:

But is King Ghidorah actually a king?

Capitalism.

Mechafunkzilla
Sep 11, 2006

If you want a vision of the future...

K. Waste posted:

Except it's not, because go does not mean "gorilla," and jira does not mean "whale."

For another example from Mothra: the name of the fictional country "Rolisika," does not mean "Russia-America." It means Rolisika. That's the name of the place. The word "Rolisika" is a portmanteau, referring to both Russia and America, but does not embody either of these real places. It refers to them at a symbolic level, not literal. When the writers thought of "Rolisika," this can not be translated to them thinking of "Russia-America." There is no translation necessary. The name is unique unto itself.

With Mothra/Mosura, we merely have a case where Tezca has literally imagined that it more or less means "Big Moth," even though "big" appears nowhere in the name. The etymological route to "Mothra" is not "Moth + big," it is "Moth + ra." "Moth"/"Mosl" is a foreign word, implying the exotic and alien; whereas "ra" is wholly generic, existing specifically to distinguish the name "Mothra" in the mind from the actual, literal "moth." "Mothra" does not mean "Big Moth." Mothra is big, but the word "big" is nowhere in the character, it has nothing to do with how the name was formulated.

Again, words have meaning. Tezca's trouble is that he is trying to insist that these monster names are just as uninspired as their Western equivalent, and thus inevitably falls into false equivalency. He assumes that the implication of "big" is buried somewhere in the name "Mothra," not because of the word, but because the subject. Mothra is big, therefore Mothra means "big moth."


Capitalism.

It would be cool of Mothra's mom was named Big Mothra though.

Mantis42
Jul 26, 2010

Her name is Mom Mothra.

Anyways, as far as new Kaiju names go, I thought Skullcrawlers was pretty good and John C Reilly's character shouldn't have been so ashamed of it!

Detective No. 27
Jun 7, 2006

That might be the one black mark against the movie. Skullcrawlers is a silly name. Don't let the characters be ashamed of camp!

Tezcatlipoca
Sep 18, 2009

K. Waste posted:

Mothra is not a big moth.

Word?

K. Waste
Feb 27, 2014

MORAL:
To the vector belong the spoils.

Mantis42 posted:

Anyways, as far as new Kaiju names go, I thought Skullcrawlers was pretty good and John C Reilly's character shouldn't have been so ashamed of it!

Detective No. 27 posted:

That might be the one black mark against the movie. Skullcrawlers is a silly name. Don't let the characters be ashamed of camp!

This is part of the reason why Kong: Skull Island is rather inspired. It knows that the 'official' name of the bad monsters is dumb, but in the very text, this is used as a gag. Reilly's character is alone, he's been waiting decades without anyone who speaks his language to share his ideas with - and then when he does, he realizes how stupid it sounds. Skullcrawler becomes inspired because of context, where the monsters actually have no 'official' name.

Monarch is a completely different case, but it would be nice if foregoing movies carried over that premise - that dumb monster names are characterization, that Monarch is like this insular culture of dorks out of Cabin in the Woods.


Yes. Mothra is more or less like a moth or a butterfly, containing features of both, but is neither.

More importantly, "Mothra" still does not mean "big moth." This is still something you just made up.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised.
You have surpassed even the Mothra. You have earned the title of 'Big Mothra'.

Tuxedo Catfish
Mar 17, 2007

You've got guts! Come to my village, I'll buy you lunch.
lepidopteran of unusual size

HUNDU THE BEAST GOD
Sep 14, 2007

everything is yours

Inescapable Duck posted:

You have surpassed even the Mothra. You have earned the title of 'Big Mothra'.

Haha

mandatory lesbian
Dec 18, 2012

Inescapable Duck posted:

You have surpassed even the Mothra. You have earned the title of 'Big Mothra'.

there should be a "single tear rolls down cheek" emote.

K. Waste
Feb 27, 2014

MORAL:
To the vector belong the spoils.

Inescapable Duck posted:

You have surpassed even the Mothra. You have earned the title of 'Big Mothra'.

God drat

edit: New thread title?

Mantis42
Jul 26, 2010

Not to be confused with Bigger Mothra, an entity that appears in some shots of Godzilla vs The Thing.

K. Waste
Feb 27, 2014

MORAL:
To the vector belong the spoils.
As a show of good faith to LORD OF BOOTY, here are, indeed, some potential names for an undefined monster that are more analogous to "Whalerilla":

- Gokujira, using the entire word for "whale"

- Kurira, using the last two syllables for "gorilla," and just one syllable off from the word for "whale"

- Gokurira or Kugojira, exchanging the syllables from both "gorira" and "kujira" not unlike what we see in "Rolisika"

That said, to the question of whether "Gojira" is 'inspired.' It is etymologically rooted in "gorira" and "kujira," but neither word, nor more than one syllable of either word, is contained in the name. Regardless of etymology, "Gojira" can not be translated as "Gorilla-Whale," nor mistaken for such a concept. Godzilla is neither an ape, nor a marine mammal, but is, rather, a giant prehistoric reptile. Is using these anachronistic terms to name the creature not inspired?

Add to this that Gojira was released in 1954, when the most significant contribution to giant monster films was King Kong, but where the more specific inspiration was The Beast from 20,000 Fathoms. In the early stages of development, Tomoyuki Tanaka even used the working title The Giant Monster from 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea. Even after Gojira came out, outside of Japan, most giant monster movies did not give names to their monsters. Their titles were impersonal and generic: Tarantula, Them!, It Came from Beneath the Sea, you even see this premise at work in the title Godzilla vs. The Thing. So is the idea of giving your monster a name, one that is simple and evocative in its originality as opposed to its being generic or impersonal, not inspired? Further, is the use of that name as the title of your film, defining it based on the personal relationship to the monster as a character and not just an abstract threat, not inspired?

Mechafunkzilla
Sep 11, 2006

If you want a vision of the future...

Inescapable Duck posted:

You have surpassed even the Mothra. You have earned the title of 'Big Mothra'.

!

Corrosion
May 28, 2008

K. Waste posted:

The etymological route to "Mothra" is not "Moth + big," it is "Moth + ra." "Moth"/"Mosl" is a foreign word, implying the exotic and alien

To your point, rendered in Katakana モスラ/mo-su-ra does explicitly have a notion of being foreign or exotic. That is that Katakana is often used to denote foreign load words in Japanese. So inferring the three syllables here as exotic is right on the nose even from within the originating language itself. It maintains its meaning even when it transitions to a different form of, for this purpose, English. Though I would interject that the pun of "ra/la"/ラ and the association with song is potentially relevant.

The existence of the creatures creates their inspiration, where the words that were available only go so far, so the creatures create their significance retroactively. But really this is about sneaking in a question: What movie was Godzilla put to sleep by Mothra where there were, I think a trio/triplets who were singing some kind of incantation? Might be a mash-up. Where the whole idea for me of "La" being a fragment representing not size, but punning on sound/song as well as just its signification for "moth", is getting jarred from this memory. I haven't seen the movie or movies where this might come from in some time.

WeedlordGoku69
Feb 12, 2015

by Cyrano4747

K. Waste posted:

Except it's not, because go does not mean "gorilla," and jira does not mean "whale."

Okay, "go-ale." Better?

(I genuinely appreciate the etymology lesson but I'm just trying to goof here. :v:)

Babysitter Super Sleuth
Apr 26, 2012

my posts are as bad the Current Releases review of Gone Girl

Inescapable Duck posted:

You have surpassed even the Mothra. You have earned the title of 'Big Mothra'.

I am undone

Barto
Dec 27, 2004
Gojira (ゴジラ) is a portmanteau of the Japanese words: gorira (ゴリラ, "gorilla"), and kujira (鯨 クジラ, "whale"), which is fitting because in one planning stage, Godzilla was described as "a cross between a gorilla and a whale"

Ryfle, Steve (1998). Japan’s Favorite Mon-Star: The Unauthorized Biography of the Big G. Toronto: ECW Press

portmanteau

a word blending the sounds and combining the meanings of two others, for example motel or brunch.
"podcast is a portmanteau, a made-up word coined from a combination of the words iPod and broadcast"

Barto fucked around with this message at 07:40 on Nov 30, 2017

Barto
Dec 27, 2004
The name "Mothra" is the suffixation of "-ra" to the English word "moth"; since the Japanese language does not have dental fricatives, it is approximated "Mosura" in Japanese. The “ra” suffix follows the precedent set by “Gojira”, which in turn is derived from kujira (鯨(クジラ), the Japanese word for “whale,” to indicate the character’s enormous size.

Snowglobe of Doom
Mar 30, 2012

sucks to be right

K. Waste posted:

God drat, the West sucks at giant monster names.

Waffleman_ posted:

Monarch are scientists, not screenwriters, dammit.
I'm guessing we'll get some scenes where ACTION HERO MAN goes "Screw your dumb science names, that's ____!" like in The Lost World:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8NaBHCuxqhA&t=71s

Rough Lobster
May 27, 2009

Don't be such a squid, bro

Snowglobe of Doom posted:


Death Jackal! :black101: Magma Turtle! :black101::black101:

Sounds like Megaman X bosses. I like it.

Tezcatlipoca
Sep 18, 2009

K. Waste posted:

Yes. Mothra is more or less like a moth or a butterfly, containing features of both, but is neither.

More importantly, "Mothra" still does not mean "big moth." This is still something you just made up.

Mothra is still a giant moth, just like Godzilla is a giant dinosaur. You're acting like this is some taxonomic thing. It isn't. The character Mothra is a giant moth, her name literally means big moth, Anguirus is based on the ankylosaurus in name and design, Ebirah is a giant crustacean because Ebirah means giant shrimp, Hedorah means sludge or something so that's what the smog monster is named. These are established patterns that you're desperately trying to disregard to fit your arbitrary naming scheme. It's sad.

Tezcatlipoca fucked around with this message at 14:41 on Nov 30, 2017

Winifred Madgers
Feb 12, 2002

Tezcatlipoca posted:

Mothra is still a giant moth, just like Godzilla is a giant dinosaur. You're acting like this is some taxonomic thing. It isn't. The character Mothra is a giant moth, her name literally means big moth

Unless "-ra" means "big" in Japanese, no, it does not literally mean "big moth."

K. Waste
Feb 27, 2014

MORAL:
To the vector belong the spoils.

Tezcatlipoca posted:

Mothra is still a giant moth, just like Godzilla is a giant dinosaur. You're acting like this is some taxonomic thing. It isn't. The character Mothra is a giant moth, her name literally means big moth--

No, it doesn't, this is still something you just made up.

As Corrosion identifies eloquently when he notes that "the creatures create their significance retroactively", you are retroactively ascribing meaning to a name based on the qualities of the character to which it is ascribed. This is a mistranslation based on false equivalency, "Mosura" does not mean "Big Moth." "Big" does not appear at all nor is even implied in the name. The only aspect of Mothra that the name describes is "Moth," everything else is left to the lyrical, "something like" effect of "ra." Translating "Mosura" as "Big Moth" is false, full stop, because the construction of the name is not connotative of size at all. (This is merely a concept that is detonated by the physical appearance of the monster, which you have conflated with what the authors who created the monster meant.) There is no translation necessary except to reintroduce the dental fricative "th." But the name remains fundamentally denotative of the character, as it not a literalism, not a summary and abbreviation of important components as you have suggested with "Big Moth," which you have made up retroactively.

The same retroactive confusion is at work with Ebirah and Godzilla. Ebirah does not mean "Big Shrimp" - Ebirah is a lobster, the use of "shrimp" is humorous, and "big" appears nowhere in its name. The transliteral form of Ebirah is, as with Mothra, "shrimp, something like," or "pseudo-shrimp," but these transliterations undermine what is actually the point of using Ebirah, which is not to be definitive of the rudimentary characteristics of a monster, but to identify it as a character.

Gojira does not mean "gorilla-whale." Gojira means Gojira, the name is not definitive of the creature's perceived or real likeness to a gorilla or whale, it is denoting a character. His name, once transliterated, is not a bastardization of gorilla and whale - it is an approximation rendered as "Godzilla," with its own all-new host of retroactive connotations that are, at the same time, not definitive. "Godzilla" does not mean "God Lizard." "Gojira" does not mean "Gorilla Whale." Neither character's name means "big dinosaur." The name is a unique term that denotes the subject and character.

You have this continual problem where you retroactively make up qualities for words based on the characteristics of a creature. "Hedorah" does not mean "sludge or something." "Hedo" means mud or muck of sludge. "Hedorah" is derived from this word, but if transliterated as "mud-something like," loses its essential linguistic purpose, which is to denote character, not to define characteristics. Angilas is inspired in form and name by the ankylosaur, but clearly Angilas's name doesn't mean what it is inspired by, it can not be translated as "inspired by the ankylosaur," that would be false. Angilas denotes the character, when you 'translated' it, or, more accurately, transliterate it, you get Anguirus.

Burkion
May 10, 2012

by Fluffdaddy

Barto posted:

The name "Mothra" is the suffixation of "-ra" to the English word "moth"; since the Japanese language does not have dental fricatives, it is approximated "Mosura" in Japanese. The “ra” suffix follows the precedent set by “Gojira”, which in turn is derived from kujira (鯨(クジラ), the Japanese word for “whale,” to indicate the character’s enormous size.

Basically a more literal translation would have been Mothzilla, given Toho was the ones who decided that Gojira's english equivalent was Godzilla (which is absolutely the correct choice)

Same for any kaiju whose name ends in Ra. Shrimpzilla!



No, not really. If that was close to being true, it'd be Jira instead of just Ra. And even then, no not really. Though this does present the amusing question of what Zilla's Japanese name is.

Choco1980
Feb 22, 2013

I fell in love with a Video Nasty
They coined Zilla at Toho during Final Wars, deliberately meaning "Godzilla without the God".

But yes, it's well documented that Gojira was coined as a portmanteau of the words for gorilla and whale. Any arguing against that makes you look silly.

Sidebar, it's pretty much decided now that the claim that gojira had previously been a nickname of a fat staffer at toho prior to the film is a publicity based myth, considering this supposed crewmember has never been identified. Recall that this is the same company that is fastidious and firm about how many toes Big G has. The name was no casual decision.

Happy Noodle Boy
Jul 3, 2002


I thought Zilla was called GINO before he was officially given a name by Toho.

Detective No. 27
Jun 7, 2006

GINO was the unnoficial fan name. Basically the "Not my Superman!" of the Godzilla community.

Waffleman_
Jan 20, 2011


I don't wanna I don't wanna I don't wanna I don't wanna!!!

But it's also very funny to imagine Zilla with a chef hat and a large mustache on a pizza box.

Corrosion
May 28, 2008

No one's really arguing about the external reasoning for these terms. The confusion is who's talking about the narrative here. What scene in the movie is it where the wikipedia article or production staff tells the villagers or the various scientists the reasoning behind these names?

Really, there's an inability to see how funny it is to try to apply the logic of said portmanteau to the character of Gojira. Imagine a scene of that being rationalized by an observer.

"He's bipedal... like a Gorilla!! He's big... like a whale!"

Godzilla/Gojira doesn't drag his knuckles/walk on the outside of his knuckles. I don't know the last whale you saw that was larger/as large as a skyscraper. But this isn't to speak to some notion of confusion, since no one was actually pondering the production/creative staff's external reasoning. Names characterize these Kaiju as well as the world around them. Like, the best that the world can manage to describe these creatures are terms that don't really adequately describe them, because that's not the point. The creatures themselves end up creating their significance in the way the narrative's various characters and objects respond to them. The names and their lacking reinforce this.

Tuxedo Catfish
Mar 17, 2007

You've got guts! Come to my village, I'll buy you lunch.
A gorilla / whale kaiju would be pretty rad, mind.

K. Waste
Feb 27, 2014

MORAL:
To the vector belong the spoils.

Tuxedo Catfish posted:

A gorilla / whale kaiju would be pretty rad, mind.

Yeah, it would have certainly been a more interesting idea for an original Godzilla: Unleashed boss than loving crystal monster and magma monster.

Happy Noodle Boy
Jul 3, 2002


Those fake Cloverfield designs were loving awesome and while I liked Clover itself a giant whale kaiju would have been great.



This is also a good time to remind everyone that the credit music in Cloverfield was incredible

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-xhIX4qr9JI

Happy Noodle Boy fucked around with this message at 02:05 on Dec 1, 2017

Waffleman_
Jan 20, 2011


I don't wanna I don't wanna I don't wanna I don't wanna!!!

How much we gotta pay to get Clover in the Verse?

CelticPredator
Oct 11, 2013
🍀👽🆚🪖🏋

Waffleman_ posted:

How much we gotta pay to get Clover in the Verse?

He's not doing so hot these days

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1lnqp9dx6g&t=49s

VolticSurge
Jul 23, 2013

Just your friendly neighborhood photobomb raptor.



Waffleman_ posted:

How much we gotta pay to get Clover in the Verse?

Just you wait. When the Monsterverse inevitably has its Infinity War equivalent and the good monsters (Kong, Godzilla, Mothra and possibly others) all get their asses kicked by the Thanos equivalent (Destroyah? Space Godzilla? Some new Original The Character Kaiju?) Clover suddenly swoops in to save the day.

The D in Detroit
Oct 13, 2012

dude can't even get cast in his own franchise anymore, it's really sad

Waffleman_
Jan 20, 2011


I don't wanna I don't wanna I don't wanna I don't wanna!!!

VolticSurge posted:

Just you wait. When the Monsterverse inevitably has its Infinity War equivalent and the good monsters (Kong, Godzilla, Mothra and possibly others) all get their asses kicked by the Thanos equivalent (Destroyah? Space Godzilla? Some new Original The Character Kaiju?) Clover suddenly swoops in to save the day.

So it's the end of the Subspace Emissary from Brawl.

Also if the MonsterVerse DOES get an Infinity War, it's absolutely going to be called Destroy All Monsters.

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CelticPredator
Oct 11, 2013
🍀👽🆚🪖🏋

SleepCousinDeath posted:

dude can't even get cast in his own franchise anymore, it's really sad

I did film one right after Cloverfield Lane came out where he blew his brains out in the bathroom, and it looked really good, but I axed it because I didn't want to put that out there. It might've been too much.

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