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The way it sounds is that the whole games industry is set to just completely and utterly collapse under its own weight of cost and development.
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Nov 30, 2017 16:49
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oh yes oh god yes form the head FORM THE HEAD unghhhh...
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IronSaber posted:The way it sounds is that the whole games industry is set to just completely and utterly collapse under its own weight of cost and development. This but the entirety of capitalism
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Nov 30, 2017 16:56
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I'm a payday 2 whale, ama.
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Nov 30, 2017 16:57
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Discendo Vox posted:I'm a payday 2 whale, ama. How do we rate whale-ness when it comes to games with Steam marketplace integration, because I'm pretty sure UnknownMerc has you beat there.
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Nov 30, 2017 17:01
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John Murdoch posted:How do we rate whale-ness when it comes to games with Steam marketplace integration, because I'm pretty sure UnknownMerc has you beat there. OK yeah good point, forget I said anything, I'm a dwarf sperm, he's a blue.
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Nov 30, 2017 17:24
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Gearman posted:The truth is that making games IS very hard. There is no formula, no blueprint, and no real guide on how things should be done. Oh certainly! I'm well aware of how the sauce is made, and I'm well aware of the challanges. Making games is very hard, not just from a technical standpoint, but from an artistic standpoint as well every step of the way. My assertion is simply that instead of studios / publishers saying, 'our game could have been better', or 'we mis-allocated resources', they instead say, 'Margins are thinner because costs are rising'.
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Nov 30, 2017 18:32
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TF2 HAT MINING RIG posted:Bungie were talking about wanting people playing around the release of new content and feeling free to take breaks in between with Destiny 2. It’s just an excuse because they hosed up on the amount of content available but it’s not impossible that they could be successful. But Destiny/Destiny 2 are single shots, there is no subscription service or promise of continued content, in fact you are promised the opposite 2-4 small bursts of additional content then buy another product. So really the only promise is that rabid fans will be replaying content over and over again to diminishing numbers; which sales seem to support.
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Nov 30, 2017 19:36
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IronSaber posted:The way it sounds is that the whole games industry is set to just completely and utterly collapse under its own weight of cost and development. The games business "collapses" a lot. It's just not 1983 anymore, so "collapse" doesn't have the same magnitude. Segments collapse. You're in the middle of several ongoing collapses right now. If AAA goes pear-shaped, it'll have impact but a lot of devs and players will just drive on. There's too much cash and potential here now for all of the big players to truly collapse. Collapse as in "go extinct", anyway. Things can get crappier for them, but that'll just alter behavior. They'll find a way. (A lot of people talk about this stuff and think only about the primarily North American names. There are plenty of others. Tencent is going to drink a lot of milkshake in the coming years.) The truly big shifts in the business on the short to more distant horizon will probably be around things like net neutrality getting jacked, increased capability of AI in gameplay, AI-backed development (which could reverse the cost trend), the zillion solutions / improvements various people are working on for the visibility problem (possibly also AI-related), AR, solid anti-cheat, eventual platform standardization or dumb terminal streaming-style setups -- that kind of stuff.
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Nov 30, 2017 20:43
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Mother posted:On the loot box / gambling / etc. topic from earlier (sorry I was off the grid for holiday) – Discendo Vox posted:I'm a payday 2 whale, ama. Chains is the best heister. Fight me if you disagree
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Nov 30, 2017 21:21
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GC_ChrisReeves posted:Chains is the best heister. Fight me if you disagree You mean Wolf After school, by the flagpole.
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Nov 30, 2017 22:10
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Renegret posted:You mean Wolf *speaks up nervously* hoxton
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Nov 30, 2017 23:40
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Behold, the death of AAA games:The Nier: Automata Thread posted:I wish it had a bigger budget, if only to make it look less like poo poo.
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Dec 5, 2017 17:27
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Gearman posted:The truth is that making games IS very hard. There is no formula, no blueprint, and no real guide on how things should be done. When you're making a tool, you know who's going to be using it, what it should do, and you can probably figure out how it should be built. When you're building something like a side quest you have wrangle with that terrible question of "Is it fun?". Play VTM:Bloodlines and jot down stuff while playing
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Dec 5, 2017 18:30
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ZiegeDame posted:Behold, the death of AAA games: Thus begins the rise of AAAA games.
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Dec 5, 2017 19:05
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ZiegeDame posted:Behold, the death of AAA games: honestly, I wouldn't really consider Nier Automata an AAA game? like I honestly don't think that "AAA games" as we define them really exist in the Japanese industry, especially now that Konami's dead and Capcom is barely hanging on; the closest you get is stuff like Final Fantasy and Kingdom Hearts, and those are massive weird outliers, not anywhere near the norm
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Dec 6, 2017 03:30
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It's almost like AAA is a vague and arbitrary term.
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Dec 6, 2017 09:26
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AAA is one of those terms that's only confusing if you think about it too hard, meanwhile if someone just showed you a slideshow of big budget vs. indie games anybody would be able to understand it implicitly.
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Dec 6, 2017 10:23
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I'm curious as what devs think of the whole 'games as service' mantra that's been coming from a certain quarter?
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Dec 6, 2017 15:31
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LORD OF BOOTY posted:honestly, I wouldn't really consider Nier Automata an AAA game? like I honestly don't think that "AAA games" as we define them really exist in the Japanese industry, especially now that Konami's dead and Capcom is barely hanging on; the closest you get is stuff like Final Fantasy and Kingdom Hearts, and those are massive weird outliers, not anywhere near the norm From the man who made Nier: Automata himself. Yoko Taro posted:“I think what’s happening at the moment in the Western video game industry is that there’s very much this polarization into the big triple-A games and also the indies, and there’s very little in the middle to fill that space. What’s happening is Japan is you’ve got a lot of games that maybe aim for triple-A but don’t quite make it there, and they actually come into that gap. So when these then go to Europe and America, they’re actually filling in that gap and they fit in really well in that niche market, and I think that’s why we’re seeing a lot of success with Japanese games at the moment.”
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Dec 8, 2017 02:56
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yeah I was going to say Nier is more of an A or AA game, if that makes sense (similar ambitions to an AAA game, but made for cheaper), and what Taro said is basically the same sentiment in smart-person terms
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Dec 8, 2017 03:31
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Yeah exactly. Valkyria Chronicles 4 if it turns out to be the return to VC1 greatness it is shaping up to be, not only will it rock my world completely, that's likely going to be a blockbuster in japan, unlikely it will that ever register on the scale of Call of Duty or an Assasin's Creed outside of japan but it will still do well. Plus success in a home market means a huge game for japan isn't company-crushing if it bombs in the US.
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Dec 8, 2017 18:48
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LORD OF BOOTY posted:yeah I was going to say Nier is more of an A or AA game, if that makes sense (similar ambitions to an AAA game, but made for cheaper), and what Taro said is basically the same sentiment in smart-person terms Nier Automata would've been AAA in 2005. Now, games like Destiny, Red Dead Redemption, and Assassin's Creed have massive budgets and require over a thousand people to develop them. Something more middle of the road, such as the new Wolfenstein games, still have hundreds of people working on the game and a budget well into the tens of millions.
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Dec 8, 2017 19:22
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LORD OF BOOTY posted:yeah I was going to say Nier is more of an A or AA game, if that makes sense (similar ambitions to an AAA game, but made for cheaper), and what Taro said is basically the same sentiment in smart-person terms
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Dec 10, 2017 05:19
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Mother posted:The cost to make a AAA game will continue to rise, so AAA will have to find a way to keep the wheels on. The scope of AAA games has certainly increased as hardware has gotten better and more and more people get thrown at exploiting it (new engines and even more detailed models), but I'm not sure we can expect that trend to keep outpacing software in general.
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Dec 10, 2017 05:27
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General software and video games are VASTLY different in most aspects. I'm sure there's a ceiling at some point, but nothing suggests that we're approaching it.
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Dec 10, 2017 05:33
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I think people tend to treat the games they like as the perfect example of what a game's budget should be.
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Dec 10, 2017 05:57
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mutata posted:General software and video games are VASTLY different in most aspects. I'm sure there's a ceiling at some point, but nothing suggests that we're approaching it. On the engineering/client side, they’re not that different than any other simulation. Server side is similar to other server problems. It’s not a CRUD database app, but there are non-games problems that do all the same things. Biggest difference is that frame rate matters for the client, so the specific algorithms (and fidelity) are different. ShadowHawk posted:Why is this? It feels like most other software is getting cheaper to make due to commoditized infrastructure, more capable tooling, and reusing common components. Content is expensive, and the cost won’t stop increasing until the quality bar stops rising.
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Dec 10, 2017 11:17
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ShadowHawk posted:Why is this? It feels like most other software is getting cheaper to make due to commoditized infrastructure, more capable tooling, and reusing common components. I think a big part of it is where "AAA" games get made. Most of the talent pool and most of the publishers are concentrated in Seattle, the Bay Area, and southern California. The cost of living is overinflated in all of those markets, so even if you're making what would be a low to average salary in one of those areas (let's say $65-70k) that's an overhead cost of close to $100k for the employer when you factor in costs to them (benefits, taxes, insurance, rent, etc.) And that's the *lower* end of salaries. Put together a team of 80-100 people for a couple of years and you start to get an idea of why it costs relatively more than it has in the past.
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Dec 12, 2017 04:13
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I'll be the first to point the finger at my own industry and say that the hub system is played out and does immense harm to employees and absolutely needs to change. It's a big, big reason why game industry workers burnout and leave so quickly. It's hard though. For example, there are only a couple devs left here in Salt Lake City, and they have trouble hiring out of state candidates because there's no where else to jump to if things go south. If you get laid off, that means you're rebooting your career or moving. It's really hard to spin up a studio in general these days: if you start in a hub you have to compete with the big boys in town, and if you start in a cheaper place, you can't get people to come to you. One of my pie-in-the-sky dreams is to start a mostly remote-worker studio where most employees can live where ever they want. That brings plenty of its own challenges, but keeping workers and keeping them happy is a huge drain in a lot of places, especially if you aren't one of the "It prints money" AAA studios. mutata fucked around with this message at 04:35 on Dec 12, 2017 |
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Dec 12, 2017 04:30
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leper khan posted:Content is expensive, and the cost won’t stop increasing until the quality bar stops rising. this type of received-wisdom logic is why i think Bushamori has been the most insightful poster itt. it's very easy to point to terrible market research that claims "um but content graphics polygons content gamers pixels content" but i don't see any justification for why this garbage research (which imo the researchers should be ashamed that they made) necessarily defines the only possible set of economic concerns that exist in the making of games
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Dec 12, 2017 06:55
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Lutha Mahtin posted:this type of received-wisdom logic is why i think Bushamori has been the most insightful poster itt. it's very easy to point to terrible market research that claims "um but content graphics polygons content gamers pixels content" but i don't see any justification for why this garbage research (which imo the researchers should be ashamed that they made) necessarily defines the only possible set of economic concerns that exist in the making of games Can you actually point to why it's terrible research or do you just agree with him because you both have the same values and arguments? Because even a cursory look at the market kinda bears the research out.
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Dec 12, 2017 09:02
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Lutha Mahtin posted:this type of received-wisdom logic is why i think Bushamori has been the most insightful poster itt. it's very easy to point to terrible market research that claims "um but content graphics polygons content gamers pixels content" but i don't see any justification for why this garbage research (which imo the researchers should be ashamed that they made) necessarily defines the only possible set of economic concerns that exist in the making of games Bushamori hasn't posted anything insightful, he's just been asking questions looking to validate his point of view. Which is cool, questions is what this thread is for.
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Dec 12, 2017 12:57
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Lutha Mahtin posted:this type of received-wisdom logic is why i think Bushamori has been the most insightful poster itt. it's very easy to point to terrible market research that claims "um but content graphics polygons content gamers pixels content" but i don't see any justification for why this garbage research (which imo the researchers should be ashamed that they made) necessarily defines the only possible set of economic concerns that exist in the making of games It doesn't, it just defines a very important one when making multi-million dollar AAA games. I mean, you can disagree with the research all you like, but if I had to choose between professionally collected research, and some guy on the internet who hasn't actually managed to raise a counterpoint beyond "it's garbage", I'm gonna side with the research.
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Dec 12, 2017 13:35
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Lutha Mahtin posted:this type of received-wisdom logic is why i think Bushamori has been the most insightful poster itt. it's very easy to point to terrible market research that claims "um but content graphics polygons content gamers pixels content" but i don't see any justification for why this garbage research (which imo the researchers should be ashamed that they made) necessarily defines the only possible set of economic concerns that exist in the making of games This isn't a question. It's also incredibly ignorant of a billion dollar industry that has existed long before video games were even a thing. If you'd like to sample the very tip of the iceberg you're free to do so here: http://www.euromonitor.com/video-games Prices range from $570 to $1325 for each report.
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Dec 12, 2017 17:29
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I recently participated in a student game showcase through a game design course at my school: basically a bunch of people from various companies in the games industry came to judge, give out some swag to a few winners, and hang out. My team's game ended up winning awards from some of the companies, one of which came with an offer for a fast-track interview for whichever (intern) positions at the company I'm most interested in. I previously didn't really think of game design as something I could actually break into professionally, even for an internship - my major is in Social Science, and although I do have some experience with Unity/C# (what I made the game in) as well as some basic knowledge of C++ most of my actual projects/skills are pretty much related to stats/'data science'. I'm definitely going to follow up with the company that offered the interview. I'm in the Bay Area, so presumably they're flush with more qualified CS people applying for the more technical positions. I would like to do something at least related to game design there, but I'm not sure what else that would look like. 'Game design intern' feels a bit nebulous, are there more specific roles that I should ask about? I'd also like to try applying more widely for game dev internships in the area to at least give it a shot. My current plan is to polish up my portfolio some, reach out to people that I met during the course, and just generally apply for internships at nearby companies. Is there anything in particular that I should consider when looking at positions/anything in particular I should keep in mind going into the application process? Sorry for the kind of vague questions, I hadn't considered game dev as a possibility prior to this so I'm not totally sure where to start. I'd appreciate any perspectives on what y'all look for in applicants/any advice you'd give for someone just starting out.
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Dec 12, 2017 19:15
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RIP ZEEZ
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foutre posted:I previously didn't really think of game design as something I could actually break into professionally, even for an internship - my major is in Social Science, and although I do have some experience with Unity/C# (what I made the game in) as well as some basic knowledge of C++ most of my actual projects/skills are pretty much related to stats/'data science'. A few positions that might be up your alley and are in pretty high demand now and in the near future: data scientist, data analyst, and data engineer. There are also general design positions that rely on looking at large amounts of user rest data for balancing, tuning, and general player behavior.
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Dec 12, 2017 21:29
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I don't think it's necessary to assume that the direction that publishers have been moving in is inherently correct or data-driven, even though they are all doing it. You may remember when the entire industry lost a shitload of money deciding it was time to make MMOs when WoW made bank, or time to make MOBAs when LoL made bank. One problem with pointing to research is that the counterfactuals don't exist - because most companies tend to work off of the same playbook, it's hard to point to the publisher that isn't following it and how successful they were or weren't. Ultimately, it's not really even a relevant argument to have unless you run a publisher or an indie developer. If you want to work on AAA, you work under the conditions of AAA at the time, which you don't get to dictate and which may or may not be dictated by logic, data or sanity. Thankfully, with indie gaming taking off over the past several years, at least we now get to play things outside of what AAA deems viable!
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Dec 13, 2017 00:44
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djkillingspree posted:I don't think it's necessary to assume that the direction that publishers have been moving in is inherently correct or data-driven, even though they are all doing it. You may remember when the entire industry lost a shitload of money deciding it was time to make MMOs when WoW made bank, or time to make MOBAs when LoL made bank. One problem with pointing to research is that the counterfactuals don't exist - because most companies tend to work off of the same playbook, it's hard to point to the publisher that isn't following it and how successful they were or weren't. This was also my thinking. We could take Apple as an example. This is just an assumption, but I am willing to bet that they spend many millions of dollars on research. Then they do something like release a phone without a traditional headphone jack. Or Microsoft tries to release the DRM machine which was the original Bone. In my simple type of thinking this leads me to one of two conclusions, or perhaps a combination of both: 1: Market research is not as accurate as is claimed 2: Market research is ultimately overruled by the opinions of those at the top This does not inspire confidence in the process, though I'm likely missing something. Granted, as long as it does not necessitate the use of manipulative practices such as taking advantage of addiction then I am fine with companies loving their own poo poo up, that's on them. Bushmaori fucked around with this message at 03:17 on Dec 13, 2017 |
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Dec 13, 2017 03:13
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Sure, but the problem is you guys aren't actually providing much in the way of counter arguments. It's all very well to say things like "You can't prove the data is correct" and "Companies have made mistakes in the past", in fact it's perfectly valid, but what is your evidence that this data in particular is wrong? I'm not trying to say that you guys are necessarily wrong, or that we're necessarily right, I'm just saying that you guys need to provide your own arguments because it feels all you're doing is attacking ours.
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Dec 13, 2017 09:35
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Perhaps it's time to leave this topic for the time being? Seems we're getting stuck in a roundabout here. foutre posted:I recently participated in a student game showcase through a game design course at my school: basically a bunch of people from various companies in the games industry came to judge, give out some swag to a few winners, and hang out. My team's game ended up winning awards from some of the companies, one of which came with an offer for a fast-track interview for whichever (intern) positions at the company I'm most interested in. I previously didn't really think of game design as something I could actually break into professionally, even for an internship - my major is in Social Science, and although I do have some experience with Unity/C# (what I made the game in) as well as some basic knowledge of C++ most of my actual projects/skills are pretty much related to stats/'data science'. You should ask this in the Games Jobs thread here: https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3415662&pagenumber=601&perpage=40 You may get more info there since there are a lot of folks in there who don't post in here. 
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Dec 13, 2017 09:43
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