Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us money per month for bills, and since we don't believe in showing ads to our users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
 
  • Post
  • Reply
JuniperCake
Jan 26, 2013

Metroixer posted:

What do I need to pass the weird black shadowy barriers that I see everywhere? At this point I have gotten the bad ending just for the sake of it and cleared the white palace. I would have figured at this point I would have just stumbled into whatever upgrade/thing I needed. The only places I haven't been to (that I know of) are The Hive and wherever the Coliseum/challenge of fools is, I only know of those since I see people talking about them.

You are missing a very important area. Actually likely two.

There is a huge area all the way down and to the right. There is an item you'll need there. There are a few ways to get there but easiest is probably to use the tram pass at Ancient Basin's tram station.

Then once you do that

One of the items you'll find in this area will let you access a special part of the Ancient Basin. That's where you want to go.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Metroixer
Apr 25, 2009

maddecent
i can't believe it did not cross my mind that the tram could go both ways. thanks!

edit: lol the trial of the fool is wild

Metroixer fucked around with this message at 05:01 on Dec 2, 2017

Tweak
Jul 28, 2003

or dont whatever








haha WELP I guess I should have read ahead about what happens in the endings to Grimm Troupe before doing them

Velius
Feb 27, 2001
I’m hardly the first to say it but I have to echo that The White Palace is super dumb. I absolutely love the game, especially the atmosphere and mood, and floating buzzsaws are not remotely consistent with the rest of the game. The least they could do if they wanted to do a meat boy homage that’s not joltingly dissimilar from the rest of the game would be to do something with the dream/nightmare setting of the area. I don’t know if they wanted to do a challenge dungeon and ran out of money, but it’s definitely the worst part of the game for me, and I like challenge areas.

Entropy238
Oct 21, 2010

Fallen Rib

Velius posted:

I’m hardly the first to say it but I have to echo that The White Palace is super dumb. I absolutely love the game, especially the atmosphere and mood, and floating buzzsaws are not remotely consistent with the rest of the game. The least they could do if they wanted to do a meat boy homage that’s not joltingly dissimilar from the rest of the game would be to do something with the dream/nightmare setting of the area. I don’t know if they wanted to do a challenge dungeon and ran out of money, but it’s definitely the worst part of the game for me, and I like challenge areas.

End-game lore-ish spoilers: the traps in the White Palace represent the Pale King trying to hide his guilt over what happened to the Hollow Knight and his failure to deal with the Radiance. His love for the Hollow Knight (shown at the end of the Path of Pain) was his most guarded secret of all, hence the increased difficulty, and was probably the reason it failed to fully contain the Radiance when it was sealed away.

I think it's one of the best places in the game. Love the music too.

fractalairduct
Sep 26, 2015

I, Giorno Giovanna, have a dream!

I like the White Palace, but I think they could have come up with a more thematically appropriate obstacle, to the area and the game as a whole.

Pigbuster
Sep 12, 2010

Fun Shoe
The one thing they should’ve done is use a more pleasant evolving sound for the traps rather than one that’s so constantly dissonant. I think visually they’re actually perfect; the brightly shining metal both fits in the dreamlike atmosphere and is also completely unlike the mostly-natural materials of the rest of the game.

Entropy238 posted:

His love for the Hollow Knight (shown at the end of the Path of Pain) was his most guarded secret of all, hence the increased difficulty, and was probably the reason it failed to fully contain the Radiance when it was sealed away.

Oh shiiii I never even made that connection, I was always unsure what the “flaw” was.

SirSamVimes
Jul 21, 2008

~* Challenge *~


The White Palace is...

...

good

Ambivalent
Oct 14, 2006

white palace discourse white palace discourse white palace discourse

dishwasherlove
Nov 26, 2007

The ultimate fusion of man and machine.

Even better, the discourse will begin anew every console release.

No Wave
Sep 18, 2005

HA! HA! NICE! WHAT A TOOL!
Just finished this. Haven't done some of the optional content (Soul Tyrant, Guardian v2, fool trial, and path of pain) yet.

Really enjoyed it. My favorite boss, by far, was Mantis Lords with the old nail. Once you start predicting the patterns it's so much fun, like Pontiff Sullyvahn phase 2 from DS3. Except way easier ofc.

The other two best ones were Zote and Radiance. You go from getting wrecked to pretty quickly figuring it out. Lost Kin, Watcher Knights, and Failed Champion can eat a dick though.

As a Super Meat Boy super fan, I very much enjoyed the white palace. Knowing that you can absorb soul from the plebs makes it a lot easier.

EDIT: I just finished path of pain and holy crap I lost my mind. One horrendous two and a half hour sitting, HALF of which was on the last room. I do not recommend this.

No Wave fucked around with this message at 03:02 on Dec 5, 2017

OzFactor
Apr 16, 2001
I beat the drat Watcher Knights with Quick Focus + Deep Focus. I've decided that they are the game's Bed of Chaos--there was just so much variance in how the fight went every single time I fought it. Two of them at a time just makes everything too unpredictable. And of course after that I went and fought Grimm and beat him on the first try (of the day, I tried a couple times before).

Capri Sun Tzu
Oct 24, 2017

by Reene
Watcher knights is one of the harder fights in the game for sure. Blast down the first knight with soul before the second one spawns, then race down the second one and you can have him dead or close to dead as the third comes out. From then on play more defensively since you'll be dealing with 2 knights at once.

No Wave
Sep 18, 2005

HA! HA! NICE! WHAT A TOOL!
Grimm Nightmare was fun. You can just pump up your health and add +damage if you want to do the fight on easy mode. You still have to like, do the fight, but you can take nine hits or so and he goes down in around ~55 hits.

My problem with his design, both the easier and harder versions, is that there are specific attacks that are really easy to punish/deal damage on (the firebat attack and the flame pillars attack) and others where you can't do anything. I think the radiance was better done because while some attacks are tougher, you can still deal damage during all of them. My winning Grimm fight was mainly due to him doing the firey birds and the flame pillars over and over.

Still another awesome sequence though where the first five times I tried it I thought the game was crazy but then it became very doable.

Internet Kraken
Apr 24, 2010

slightly amused
What's the quickest method to get Jodi's Blessing? I'm doing a fresh run to see the Grimm Troupe content and until I get to those bosses I figured I'd mix it up by cutting out healing.

SirSamVimes
Jul 21, 2008

~* Challenge *~


Get the mantis claw then go up the secret left of where you start the game

Paracelsus
Apr 6, 2009

bless this post ~kya
IIRC you may also want the lantern, although it's not technically required.

Artelier
Jan 23, 2015


Yeah, I found it long before getting the Lantern. It's one of the easier dark places to navigate.

Internet Kraken
Apr 24, 2010

slightly amused
Did one of the updates add more cutscenes/events to the base story of the game? I just got the mothwing cloak and there was a short scene with the dreamers. I don't remember that in my first run at all, but then again I have a pretty poor memory so I wouldn't be surprised if it was always there.

I dont know
Aug 9, 2003

That Guy here...

Internet Kraken posted:

Did one of the updates add more cutscenes/events to the base story of the game? I just got the mothwing cloak and there was a short scene with the dreamers. I don't remember that in my first run at all, but then again I have a pretty poor memory so I wouldn't be surprised if it was always there.

I think that was always there, but I could be wrong.

skasion
Feb 13, 2012

Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?
That’s been there since before the DLCs. They might have changed it around a bit, I don’t know.

Pigbuster
Sep 12, 2010

Fun Shoe

Internet Kraken posted:

Did one of the updates add more cutscenes/events to the base story of the game? I just got the mothwing cloak and there was a short scene with the dreamers. I don't remember that in my first run at all, but then again I have a pretty poor memory so I wouldn't be surprised if it was always there.

Always been there. It's easy to forget about because it's so similar to the later bit in Resting Grounds.

Martman
Nov 20, 2006

Whew, just finished getting the Steel Heart achievement (100% completion in Steel Soul), and also picked up Speed Completion. There were a couple of times super far into the run where I got WAAAY too close to dying... pretty sure I would have just uninstalled at that point.

I Said No
May 21, 2007

jesus dude ur gonna kill someone with that av

Martman posted:

Whew, just finished getting the Steel Heart achievement (100% completion in Steel Soul), and also picked up Speed Completion. There were a couple of times super far into the run where I got WAAAY too close to dying... pretty sure I would have just uninstalled at that point.

Which, out of curiosity? For me i'd say Trial of the Fool, Elder Hu, Marmu, and the Watcher Knights.

Internet Kraken
Apr 24, 2010

slightly amused
I drew a picture of Cornifer.



The character designs in this game are pretty fun to draw.

Martman
Nov 20, 2006

I Said No posted:

Which, out of curiosity? For me i'd say Trial of the Fool, Elder Hu, Marmu, and the Watcher Knights.
For me it was completely random and stupid poo poo. I tried to do the Delicate Flower quest before opening the door in Queen's Garden that makes it reasonable. So I went the long way around and got all panicky when the doors closed and I realized there was a multi-mob fight there. I was so frustrated about the quest that I almost let myself die before realizing what I was doing.

And the other was in that long open passage around the entrance of the Ancient Basin. There are a bunch of those flying soldier guys, and I messed up like 3 times in a row, getting hit and also falling onto spikes, so I only had 1 health. So I backed off to safety, breathed a sigh of relief...... and then a lance flew at me from off screen. I may have screamed.


I ended up having no trouble with bosses; I think I just farmed up stuff really well so I was always overpowered for what I was getting into.

Also, Path of Pain and Speed Run 2 completed!

Dancer
May 23, 2011
Yeah, back when I was trying Steel Soul, the things that got me were really dumb as well. I failed twice.One of them was this slightly cramped arena with city-type enemies, heading into Isma's Grove. City enemies, in general, feel most threatening without sufficient preparation. Another one was Watcher Knights because I wasn't taking it "seriously" yet, so I still had Gathering Swarm + Greed equipped, and I was on 6 masks. I got really close to dying to Hornet 2 because I just found out yesterday after 150 hours into this game, and completing Steel Soul + 99% Glass Soul that you can hit those things she leaves hanging in mid-air to get rid of them.

I also almost died in that place heading into Ancient Basin. Lancers are dicks. And I also almost died trying the flower quest because "hey I'm going to be really careful and not get hit at all, I can totally over-charm myself, what could go wrong".

Stuff like Trial of the Fool and Radiance wasn't really an issue because I could practice those on my normal save. And those two more difficult warrior graves might be difficult if they had more health. I just damage-raced.


One thing that amused me is how different the difficulty curve looks on Glass Soul. Top 3 bosses: Watcher Knights are, predictably, a massive pain in the rear end. Nosk is suddenly challenging because he's just so fast and "random" that it's extremely easy to mis-step. Dung Defender took me 30+ tries to beat. The three Dream bosses took less than that (this was pre-DLC). Radiance took less than that.

Speaking of Dream bosses, Soul Tyrant (which I always regarded as fairly easy compared to the other two) suddenly required the most attempts, because that fake-out kept catching me. And Trial of the Conqueror just broke me. I didn't even start up Trial of the Fool as a joke. Just shut down, called it at 99% and moved on.

Martman
Nov 20, 2006

Woop woop, 100% achievement completion. Nightmare King was a super fun way to finish all the game's content.

Internet Kraken
Apr 24, 2010

slightly amused
Even the first trial in the Colosseum is really hard without double jump and shadow dash. I used to be able to do it without even taking damage but it took me several tries to beat it this time. I imagine a lot of things are gonna seem a lot harder if I intentionally put off getting the shadow dash; I abused the hell out of that in my first run.

OzFactor
Apr 16, 2001
All right, took me quite a few tries, but I beat the true final boss. Thoughts on that fight: Phew. That was very busy. I think the key to it clicking for me in the end was just managing to stay calm through the second phase when the spikes start coming. It also really, really helped when I pretty much accidentally figured out that when the swords come down vertically, you can fit between two of them even without a bigger break. I tried quite a few times with some combination of Shaman Stone and trying to rush her down with Abyssal Screeches, but in the end I won by taking my time with Quick Focus + Deep Focus. I did enjoy the fact that by the time I beat her, I could beat the Hollow Knight without getting hit.

I'm overall really, really impressed with this game. I honestly don't play a whole lot of video games anymore and it's the only new game I've played in a while, so this isn't much of a comparison, but it's the best game I've played in a really long time. It absolutely nailed the kind of progression that really makes a good exploration-type game. I feel weird calling it a Metroidvania since neither Metroid nor Castlevania games really have that type of progression. They're both quite a bit more linear: get this upgrade, then go here to get the next upgrade, etc. etc. Hollow Knight--and, yes, Dark Souls--are more like: go to A, B, C, D, or E, just know that B through E will destroy you unless you know what you're doing. I started up a new game and I am amazed at how quickly I can make my way through it, not just from remembering where things are but having the skill to make it there without any trouble. I think it's really rare to see a game that's so good at teaching you how to play it.

Story thoughts: I think I've made up my mind about the whole "am I eternally killing these ghosts with the Dream Nail," and now that I've seen the Radiance, everything connected to the Dream is her, right? Every time you enter the Dream itself (e.g. when you first get the Dream Nail, when you do the refights, or when you go to kill a Dreamer), you go to the same place, which tells me it's part of the collective (sub)consciousness that everyone's talking about. And then at the end of the game, you go into the Dream, pull out your nail, and challenge the light itself, always there in the background. And then you kill it. Or the Void kills it. Or whatever. So when you cut someone off from the Dream using the Dream Nail, you're just releasing them from Radiance purgatory, right? Right?? Help me feel better about my video game decisions.

SirSamVimes
Jul 21, 2008

~* Challenge *~


Radiance is everything I could want in a final boss fight. She is difficult, got a cool varied moveset, fantastic music, a great look and the general atmosphere of the fight is fantastic especially with the end when you feed her to the void.

As for the ghosts, I imagine that they're not actual ghosts, they're just remaining impressions. They're never referred to as spirits, only as dreams. "Linger dream of a fallen warrior", etc. On the other hand, if they are actual ghosts, then you are murdering them for no reason. You never need the 1 point of essence that comes from eating a non-boss ghost.

Also before you close off the game I recommend going to the Howling Cliffs and looking around. Specifically, a breakable wall on the right a few screen-lengths beneath Cornifer.

SirSamVimes fucked around with this message at 06:37 on Dec 19, 2017

Internet Kraken
Apr 24, 2010

slightly amused
More story spoiler talk


I think interpreting dreams a purgatory created by the Radiance is correct. The dreams in Hollow Knight are not depicted as a positive thing. They are life after death, which is generally considered good, but a big theme in Hollow Knight is that nothing should last forever. All of the dreamer's are trapped in time, unable to directly interact with the world. They are unaware of what is happening around them and are in a perpetual state of confusion. Most would agree that to exist in such a state would be painful. The Glade of Spirit's seems to contain ghosts that are not connected to the Radiance. Many of them also seem to be suffering, but other's are content. The content one's have accepted death and are essentially asleep forever until you talk to them. The ones suffering are clinging to memory's life and their unfulfilled desires.

The Grimm Troupe DLC reinforces this theme a lot. Grimm is artificially extending his life by having his follower's gather essence, imbuing that essence into a child, and then transferring his own soul into it. Grimm lives forever by consuming the souls of other creatures. That's why the good ending to the Troupe has you sabotaging the ritual. You put an end to Grimm's eternal life and reaping of souls.

But don't go thinking you "releasing" them is much better. You are just gobbling up their soul and consuming it to fuel yours. The exact nature of spirits and soul is murky, but I think its clear that when you dream nail them you are absorbing their essence into yourself. It can be considered a mercy in some cases, but in others it (namely the Spirit's Glade inhabitants) it seems to be defiling the dead.

EDIT: Think of it like this; spirits aren't traditional ghosts but rather living memories. They reflect what a person was; what they accomplished and what they desired. Those that are at peace lived lives where they achieved their goals, or realized they did not need pursue them. Those that die unfulfilled leave behind spirits that are full of regret and confusion. Spirits aren't an accurate representation of what a person was but what they viewed themself as.

When you dream nail a spirit, you are consuming a memory. You are erasing an impression they left on the world. Its not really like killing a person but it tarnishing their memory. When you nail all the spirits in the Glade, Rivek forgets his purpose. You've removed all memory he has of other spirits, and with it he has no idea of what he was doing.

Internet Kraken fucked around with this message at 06:51 on Dec 19, 2017

SirSamVimes
Jul 21, 2008

~* Challenge *~


Internet Kraken posted:

More story spoiler talk


I think interpreting dreams a purgatory created by the Radiance is correct. The dreams in Hollow Knight are not depicted as a positive thing. They are life after death, which is generally considered good, but a big theme in Hollow Knight is that nothing should last forever. All of the dreamer's are trapped in time, unable to directly interact with the world. They are unaware of what is happening around them and are in a perpetual state of confusion. Most would agree that to exist in such a state would be painful. The Glade of Spirit's seems to contain ghosts that are not connected to the Radiance. Many of them also seem to be suffering, but other's are content. The content one's have accepted death and are essentially asleep forever until you talk to them. The ones suffering are clinging to memory's life and their unfulfilled desires.

The Grimm Troupe DLC reinforces this theme a lot. Grimm is artificially extending his life by having his follower's gather essence, imbuing that essence into a child, and then transferring his own soul into it. Grimm lives forever by consuming the souls of other creatures. That's why the good ending to the Troupe has you sabotaging the ritual. You put an end to Grimm's eternal life and reaping of souls.

But don't go thinking you "releasing" them is much better. You are just gobbling up their soul and consuming it to fuel yours. The exact nature of spirits and soul is murky, but I think its clear that when you dream nail them you are absorbing their essence into yourself. It can be considered a mercy in some cases, but in others it (namely the Spirit's Glade inhabitants) it seems to be defiling the dead.


Murdering your only child and his father is not a good ending.

Internet Kraken
Apr 24, 2010

slightly amused

SirSamVimes posted:

Murdering your only child and his father is not a good ending.

I mean, the Grimmchild isn't really a child. Maybe it could be if it was free, but it is created to serve the purpose of Grimm's ritual. Grimm's ritual seems to be him planting his soul inside a child that has fed on the essence of the deceased so that he can be reborn. But Whether or not Grimm is being reborn directly really doesn't matter. The child will either become Grimm himself or is fated to be an exact replica of him that will follow in his footsteps. With the way Hollow Knight views life and memories, the child is going to be Grimm. Grimm's ritual exists so that his essence can exist forever.

Also the Troupe's ritual is clearly destructive, disturbing the dead and consuming their soul to serve Grimm's purposes. The game doesn't try to hide this; you are working for the Grim Reaper! Allowing their work to continue can hardly be considered good.


The Grimm Troupe content is really cool though, horrible implications aside. I really like the Grimmkin's constant laughter.





Internet Kraken fucked around with this message at 07:46 on Dec 19, 2017

SirSamVimes
Jul 21, 2008

~* Challenge *~


Internet Kraken posted:

I mean, the Grimmchild isn't really a child. Maybe it could be if it was free, but it is created to serve the purpose of Grimm's ritual. Grimm's ritual seems to be him planting his soul inside a child that has fed on the essence of the deceased so that he can be reborn. But Whether or not Grimm is being reborn directly really doesn't matter. The child will either become Grimm himself or is fated to be an exact replica of him that will follow in his footsteps. With the way Hollow Knight views life and memories, the child is going to be Grimm. Grimm's ritual exists so that his essence can exist forever.

Also the Troupe's ritual is clearly destructive, disturbing the dead and consuming their soul to serve Grimm's purposes. The game doesn't try to hide this; you are working for the Grim Reaper! Allowing their work to continue can hardly be considered good.


he is my precious and perfect son :colbert:

Dancer
May 23, 2011
One little thing that bugged me about [final boss fight] is if you're "lucky" she'll float just slightly above a platform, and let you DPS her into oblivion.I thought the difficulty of the fight was really well balanced otherwise, but I'd have prefered it if there was a cap on damage she would take before forcing her to reposition.

SirSamVimes posted:

he is my precious and perfect son :colbert:

Amen, brother.

Yorkshire Pudding
Nov 24, 2006



Reminder that The Radiance did nothing wrong and the Pale King is an usurper.

OzFactor
Apr 16, 2001
Late game story spoiler chat:

One question I had was how we were supposed to interpret the Void Heart scene. Was that a flashback? Or something else? Did the Hollow Knight look back down into the Abyss in general, or specifically at the Knight trying to climb out of it? I sort of have a feeling that we're supposed to think the Hollow Knight knows he won't be able to contain the infection. He certainly seems to be trying to help you at the end, not just with his shade attacking the Radiance directly but during his own fight when he's stabbing himself. I've watched the Path of Pain ending (on Youtube, haven't tried it yet myself) but I'm not sure what it's supposed to be telling us about him and about the King.

Pigbuster
Sep 12, 2010

Fun Shoe

OzFactor posted:

Late game story spoiler chat:

One question I had was how we were supposed to interpret the Void Heart scene. Was that a flashback? Or something else? Did the Hollow Knight look back down into the Abyss in general, or specifically at the Knight trying to climb out of it? I sort of have a feeling that we're supposed to think the Hollow Knight knows he won't be able to contain the infection. He certainly seems to be trying to help you at the end, not just with his shade attacking the Radiance directly but during his own fight when he's stabbing himself. I've watched the Path of Pain ending (on Youtube, haven't tried it yet myself) but I'm not sure what it's supposed to be telling us about him and about the King.

I don't think we can really determine a whole lot about what the Hollow Knight was thinking, since his whole deal was that he was supposed to be an empty unthinking vessel. The Path of Pain ending makes it clear that the king was very close to the Hollow Knight. It implies his "no cost too great" quote refers not only to the the countless bugs and souls sacrificed to create the Hollow Knight, but also to the king's sacrifice of his own surrogate son to keep the Radiance in check. To make this even worse, it's possible that love was the one flaw in the Hollow Knight that made him an imperfect vessel. That's not 100% stated outright but god drat does it make the story good so I believe it wholeheartedly.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Internet Kraken
Apr 24, 2010

slightly amused

Pigbuster posted:

I don't think we can really determine a whole lot about what the Hollow Knight was thinking, since his whole deal was that he was supposed to be an empty unthinking vessel. The Path of Pain ending makes it clear that the king was very close to the Hollow Knight. It implies his "no cost too great" quote refers not only to the the countless bugs and souls sacrificed to create the Hollow Knight, but also to the king's sacrifice of his own surrogate son to keep the Radiance in check. To make this even worse, it's possible that love was the one flaw in the Hollow Knight that made him an imperfect vessel. That's not 100% stated outright but god drat does it make the story good so I believe it wholeheartedly.


I'm pretty sure sure that is the correct read. There's a repeating theme in Hallowknight of powerful beings falling prey to their desires. The Radiance plagues the world because it loathes being forgotten. Herrah sacrificed her life out of an insatiable desire to sire a daughter. The King's empire crumbled because he overstepped his bounds and grew too close to his subjects. So it would certainly be following with that theme for the Hollow Knight to be a failure because he loved the King too much, and that emotion is what allowed the Radiance to leak out in the form of dreams.

  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • Post
  • Reply