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Kurieg posted:And then Iron Blooded Orphans kind of.. removed the subtlety.
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Dec 4, 2017 23:23
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Hunt11 posted:As in? Most Gundam protagonists are good at war with giant robots. But their true calling is usually to improve the world using their physic communications powers or idealism. Typically, the final battle involves overcoming the antagonist's ideals in a giant robot debate-fight. In Iron Blood Orphans, the protagonist does not have physic powers or exceptional idealism, Mikazuki Augus is just really, really, really good at killing dudes in a giant robot. Also the second season of Iron Blood Orphans is all about how you can't just kill your way to a better world, with a very unorthodox final battle at the end.
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Dec 4, 2017 23:29
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If you're calling any given Gundam series (barring a few exceptions like G Gundam) subtle about being anti-war you must be comparing it to poo poo like Come and See.
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Dec 4, 2017 23:30
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Nessus posted:I only know that show from a guy who seemed thrilled that there was a hard warrior character who called a lady who believed in peace a whole bunch of rude names. I'm also told there's a harem. I can't remember the scene your friend is talking about, but if it's the lady I'm thinking of she starts out kind of hopelessly naive, like "worse than Relena" naive. She gets better. As for the Harem.. Sort of yes. It's complicated, he runs an all female crew but only some of them are his wives, some are his adoptive daughters, and him and his 'main wife' are easily the two most 'heroic' people in the entire show.
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Dec 4, 2017 23:37
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Kurieg posted:I can't remember the scene your friend is talking about, but if it's the lady I'm thinking of she starts out kind of hopelessly naive, like "worse than Relena" naive. She gets better.
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Dec 5, 2017 00:12
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Halloween Jack posted:I'm curious, how many games have tried to be the kitchen sink for sci-fi that D&D is for high fantasy? I'm thinking games where you can basically play Star Wars, Guardians of the Galaxy, Buck Rogers, etc., travel to dozens of different planets with dozens of alien races and so on. I suppose Traveller counts, and definitely Star Frontiers, Encounter Critical, Humanspace Empires, and that French game that was covered here. Space Opera is the big one. Traveller of course. Other Suns, which was another FGU game with a significantly furry bent.
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Dec 5, 2017 00:21
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Daeren posted:If you're calling any given Gundam series (barring a few exceptions like G Gundam) subtle about being anti-war you must be comparing it to poo poo like Come and See. When you compare it to other media of that time like the original Space Battleship Yamato, it's like night and day too. Yamato 2199 reverses a lot of the problematic stuff but the message of Yamato was that Japan did nothing wrong in WWII and was justified in its actions. There's even an episode that takes place on the original Yamato and the Americans are depicted attacking it in the same way as the Garmillans do.
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Dec 5, 2017 00:35
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Nessus posted:I have no objections if they attempt to present poly relationships but this person presented it in tones of "Thank Godless-chance-in-a-cold-cruel-universe, a Gundam where there isn't none of that hippie girl poo poo!!" Which I'm guessing is not the case, just as how even G Gundam had all the broad Gundam thematics, just expressed in a different way. Basically the macguffonium of Orphans is this thing called the Alaya Vijnani system that requires the pilots undergo a procedure that basically forces the body to make an ancellary brain along the spinal column that the suit can interface with. The survival rate is highest amongst children, note i said highest, it's still only something like 60%. So there are multiple mercenary outfits that basically buy up orphans by the bucketload, put them under the knife, and keep the ones which survive. In the second season you find out that they came up with this system because prior to this they accidentally created a bunch of self-perpetuating, self-repairing, autonomous AI suits with a single directive of "Kill All Humans" and the AV system was the only way to defeat them, of course even with the AV system to actually keep up with the AI's you have to turn off the limiters, and if you keep doing that it starts burning out bits of your actual brain to make more AV nodes. The main character loses the use of his right eye and arm, and some of his ability to walk, whenever he's not hooked up to the suit.
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Dec 5, 2017 00:42
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RocknRollaAyatollah posted:When you compare it to other media of that time like the original Space Battleship Yamato, it's like night and day too. Yamato 2199 reverses a lot of the problematic stuff but the message of Yamato was that Japan did nothing wrong in WWII and was justified in its actions. There's even an episode that takes place on the original Yamato and the Americans are depicted attacking it in the same way as the Garmillans do. What, putting a fighter sweep over it that didn't encounter resistance and then tossing a few dozen bombers at it from over the horizon?
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Dec 5, 2017 01:26
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wiegieman posted:What, putting a fighter sweep over it that didn't encounter resistance and then tossing a few dozen bombers at it from over the horizon? Does each episode also end with the Yamato losing whatever battle it's in but escaping basically unscathed until it's cornered and torpedoed into smithereens? I will never understand the Japanese right's love of that ship. It'd be like Nu-Nazis worshiping the Tirpitz* for sitting in port all war and keeping forces on stand by to deal with it until it got sunk after only killing a minelayer and maybe some cargo ships. *Some probably do but shut up. EDIT: Didn't a Yamato live action film have a kamikaze attack that borrowed imagery from the IJN's Kamikaze manual? Kavak fucked around with this message at 02:36 on Dec 5, 2017 |
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Dec 5, 2017 02:33
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As someone who was an unreasonably huge fan of the Mighty Ducks cartoon (it was a Disney show by the way) as a possibly insane kid, I'm glad it still comes up talking about ridiculous 90s TMNT knockoffs. And there's always the same problem that while war is horrible, it makes for really good TV. See the entertaining confusion of Metal Gear on the topic.
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Dec 5, 2017 03:49
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 Chapter 6: The Illuminati - Anarchy U and Malted Nights   As a matter of course, the rest of the art for this section is invisible. Creative Anarchism: The Invisible College - This conspiracy was started by "philosophers and poets" some time during the 16th century CE and exists "only in the dark, shadowy fringes of society". It's never becomes a major player in the global illuminati conflict, as the group has been almost entirely unsuccessful at accomplishing their stated goal of "thwarting totalitarian control and destabilizing centralized power in general". Apparently at some early point in their history, the Invisible College caught the attention of the Rosicrucians and the two groups have been in cahoots ever since; as the real Rosicrucians barely exist outside their singular mountain stronghold, it's difficult to really envision anything substantive that this partnership has accomplished. The Invisible College operates as a loose confederation of creative types that attempt to use their art to promote individuality and undermine anything that would limit or curtail human freedom. Famous members of the Invisible College supposedly have included Galileo, Beethoven, Keats, Picasso, William S. Burroughs, Orwell, Aldous Huxley, Salvador Dali, John Lennon, Steve Biko, and Robert Anton Wilson, and it's a complete coincidence that the entirety of this illustrious membership are men, and that the majority of them were Caucasian. Apparently the Invisible College is also home to revolutionaries, terrorists and "lone nuts" that are willing to take violent action to achieve their aims, but at least Dark*Matter doesn't attempt to imply that any famous murderers were a part of this group. Somehow, the arm of the Invisible College that is responsible for causing civilian casualties is also responsible for creating groups like Amnesty International and Green Peace. Dark*Matter doesn't stop to explain this assertion, so I won't even bother to try and rationalize it. The Invisible College is also opposed to the Freemasons, the Knights of Malta (up next) and the Greys, but Dark*Matter doesn't bother to fill in any of the details regarding how or why these animosities exist. If I was going to use the Invisible College in a campaign, I'd lean really hard into "the membership is 99% artists, dreamers, and creative types" angle and have them basically exist as a private club for trust fund kids and Hollywood elites, all completely convinced that their conspiracy is important and involved in making positive change in the world, but without ever being able to provide concrete proof that they've accomplished anything more than sitting around in expensive penthouses, huffing each other's farts and fantasizing about how important they must be. The players would run into them while they were engaging in some kind of ostentatious poverty tourism, only to find them getting into BMWs and Bugattis at the end of the day and driving back home to their McMansions. On the other hand, it's still a conspiracy with a membership comprised mostly of millionaires that want to "do good" for the world, and an enterprising agent could likely convince them to throw their considerable monetary support behind an actual good cause, playing on their need for validation that their group has actually made a difference in the world. Basically, they'd be a blank check for whatever you needed to get done, but you'd have to french kiss a bunch of royal assess first. HQ & Branches: None declared. Power & Resources: Great wealth and a mutually-beneficial relationship with the real Rosicrucians. Followers: Unknown. Secret Knowledge: Likely none, but across their entire spectrum of membership it's possible someone has alien technology or psychic powers or an occult artifact. Primary Goal: Thwart totalitarian regimes and destabilize centralized government power in general. Common Missions: Willing to undertake anything that a high school anarchist could get excited about.  I'm actually grateful that this is the only art they included for these jerks. A Modern Crusade: Knights of Malta - 90% of the write-up for the Knights is an interminably boring history lesson about their prior military victories, which is information that will never ever ever be relevant to your players. Suffice to say, the Knights of Malta originated in the 13th century CE and have been disbanded and reformed multiple times and have operated under several different names. There, I just saved you reading a page and a half of imaginary historical drivel. The write-up concludes with multiple "facts" that might be relevant at some point, but still comprise a highly dubious use of page space: * They're mortal enemies with the Freemasons. * The Knights of Malta are the single largest land owner in the country of Italy and their holdings in Rome, Prague, Vienna and Via Condotti enjoy extraterritorial status like the Vatican. * They're allied with the assholes from St. Greg and they actively oppose any group that harbors liberal or non-Christian values, so I guess these dudes can gently caress right off too. They're slightly less bloodthirsty though, instead attempting to infiltrate whatever judicial or legislative bodies that will allow them to dictate the laws of the land, and thus removing liberal or non-Christian thought via governmental bureaucracy rather than murder. I guess these guys consider themselves the Richard Spencers of their movement, as opposed to the David Dukes that comprise the membership St. Greg. * Many "key figures" of the religious right or key conservative thought leaders are definitely Knights of Malta. Wheeeee! So, either honest men doing God's work on Earth, or a bunch of evil assholes that you can kill without remorse, depending on your GM's political inclination. HQ & Branches: The Island of Malta, with enough branches to be considered a world-wide conspiracy. Power & Resources: The monetary reserves that you'd expect from the largest landowner in Italy (that also enjoys extraterritorial status). Followers: Several hundred active Knights, with several thousand other support personnel. Secret Knowledge: Random occult and religious knowledge, plus a working understanding of governmental procedure across multiple western bureaucracies (this is actually much more dangerous in practice than it would seem). Primary Goal: Prevent the decay of Christian cultural norms. Common Missions: Foil the plans of the Freemasons, prevent the moral decay of western civilization by successfully drafting and passing legislation at a national level, maintain their power network of church leaders and government cronies. NEXT TIME: The Final Church and the Bilderbergers.
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Dec 5, 2017 04:38
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golden bubble posted:Most Gundam protagonists are good at war with giant robots. But their true calling is usually to improve the world using their physic communications powers or idealism. Typically, the final battle involves overcoming the antagonist's ideals in a giant robot debate-fight. In Iron Blood Orphans, the protagonist does not have physic powers or exceptional idealism, Mikazuki Augus is just really, really, really good at killing dudes in a giant robot. Also the second season of Iron Blood Orphans is all about how you can't just kill your way to a better world, with a very unorthodox final battle at the end. I am a big fan of the show so I wanted to just check which way Kurieg was arguing before making a longer post. I think you also slightly understate the point of Mikazuki. He is really good at killing in general, it is just that when he gets rolling in his Gundam he is absolute monster. This does go into spoiler territory but the second season does a good job of showing why a system like the Alaya Vijnani would have been needed in the past to deal with horrific robots that are designed to constantly repair themselves and exterminate all human life. It is just that in the relative time of peace that the show is set in, that type of surgery is no longer anywhere close to a necessary evil and is instead just monstrous.
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Dec 5, 2017 04:58
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Hunt11 posted:It is just that in the relative time of peace that the show is set in, that type of surgery is no longer anywhere close to a necessary evil and is instead just monstrous. Yeah, the reason why mercenary groups were doing this to kids is because once you have the AV installed you basically get a baseline level of piloting ability that takes most people a year or so to achieve. So not only can they shore up their numbers quickly, they can shore them up with people the equivalent of pilot training school graduates. And they treat them like absolute poo poo, because they're fungible assets. The suits are rare and can't be replaced, pilots can. Mikazuki's unique because he chose to undergo the procedure, not once, but twice. Because it makes him a better fighter which means he can help his friend achieve his dream more easily. By the time the final episode rolls around, he doesn't need psychic powers. It took someone committing multiple war crimes to slow him down enough for a force outnumbering him 10 to 1 to finally take the Barbatos Lupus Rex down.
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Dec 5, 2017 05:21
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Inescapable Duck posted:And there's always the same problem that while war is horrible, it makes for really good TV. See the entertaining confusion of Metal Gear on the topic. I think the reason why war seems to make for really good TV is that producers and writers like to pick situations that MAKE for good TV--close range aerial dogfights, hand to hand melee combat, gun battles with well-delineated sides. That's understandable, since you can't exactly market a film or show based on how boring it is unless you're doing a documentary or docu-drama. I still think you could make a good movie or TV show that doubles down on the horrifying aspect if you kept it modern, industrialized, and slightly impersonal--I'm having a really hard time imagining a war movie about artillery shells, cruise missile exchanges or the launch-no-launch decisions of an ICBM base or SSBN being called "cool" or "exciting". But that's much closer to Harpoon than Dungeons and Dragons, tabletop game wise.
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Dec 5, 2017 05:28
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Comrade Gorbash posted:This is a fantastic point and should be framed over every game dev's desk. Thanks. It's really a corollary of something I've been thinking a lot about, which is the tendency for RPGs to want to simulate genre fiction, because those were the things that came before, and every new medium has an inferiority complex when looking back to its forebears. And that's understandable. But it also makes me think about what RPGs do better than, say, movies or novels, and what they do worse... and what experiences can we create that are unique to gaming? Or, at the very least, what do we discard when borrowing from other mediums? That's not to say RPGs don't have unique experiences - D&D evolved into truly a thing all its own, as do many RPGs even if they start from derivative notions - but they often operate under trying to simulate something else, whether or not they do it well. Instead of cargo cult rules, it's often a sort of cargo cult fiction, and is there a way out of that? Or is it not really that big a deal? Granted, I don't have the answers to these questions, it's just been something on my mind.
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Dec 5, 2017 06:09
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Davin Valkri posted:I think the reason why war seems to make for really good TV is that producers and writers like to pick situations that MAKE for good TV--close range aerial dogfights, hand to hand melee combat, gun battles with well-delineated sides. That's understandable, since you can't exactly market a film or show based on how boring it is unless you're doing a documentary or docu-drama. Isn't this "Generation Kill"? Davin Valkri posted:I still think you could make a good movie or TV show that doubles down on the horrifying aspect if you kept it modern, industrialized, and slightly impersonal--I'm having a really hard time imagining a war movie about artillery shells, cruise missile exchanges or the launch-no-launch decisions of an ICBM base or SSBN being called "cool" or "exciting". But that's much closer to Harpoon than Dungeons and Dragons, tabletop game wise. Isn't this Eye In The Sky is?
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Dec 5, 2017 06:16
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Stop stealing words from Buddhism/whatever sounds exotic, Gundam. As for Death of the Author 40K, I have basically have to compartmentalize liking Imperium away from my leftist views and milhistish hate for inefficiency. If IoM was perfect, it would be Star Trek Federation and nobody would care. I only watched TOS, but even the show doesn't care about post scarcity/post conflict society, focusing instead on people who get out there to gently caress green skinned alien space babes and shoot quantum mortars.
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Dec 5, 2017 06:38
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JcDent posted:Stop stealing words from Buddhism/whatever sounds exotic, Gundam. I play 40k, and I have no idea how anyone could find the Imperium likable. Interesting from a gameplay standpoint, sure, but they are objectively bad. They waste countless billions of lives for no reason at all other than keeping the Lords of Terra insulated from a universe that is omnicidal.
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Dec 5, 2017 07:19
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At least with the Empire they have a lust for mustaches and slashed sleeves that makes them completely sympathetic and understandable. But seriously it's one of the reasons I like the city writeups and stuff that I'm doing: They pay attention to where people in Hams Fantasy actually, like, have fun, or work, or study, or live. They have neighbors and social circles and universities and are only occasionally menaced by goatman prime.
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Dec 5, 2017 07:23
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Hams Fantasy is just a great setting. You can tell how good something is by the size of the hats and sleeves contained within.
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Dec 5, 2017 07:29
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Night10194 posted:At least with the Empire they have a lust for mustaches and slashed sleeves that makes them completely sympathetic and understandable. Oh yeah, I totally agree with everything here. As for 40K... I got into it before I have ever heard of fantasy (Space Marine the book -> Dawn of War -> what are these miniature things). I can see how IoM can be improved in universe and there are people who try that, but not everything can be saved. And in the end, most of the stuff in the universe is trying to kill humans (and everything else), and you can see age of strife/darkness as a hugely traumatic event that set humans against aliens forever. You know? ...you don't? Anyways, are there any other grimdark space settings that are good/fun?
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Dec 5, 2017 07:43
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There's a big difference between liking something as a setting and liking it as a place. The Imperium of Man can work pretty well as a setting because it's so big and so screwed up you can do all kinds of things with it, and explore all of the worst aspects of human history, society and nature. There's usually a point in the fiction that the universe grinds down even the strongest of good people while the horrible often thrive when the system has decayed and ossified to the point where it's a struggle just to get things to work how they should be. But that presents a lot of its own issues, including difficulty in portraying people's actual everyday lives, and giving the players a reason to care about a place and setting when the details become so sketchy the further down you go. JcDent posted:Stop stealing words from Buddhism/whatever sounds exotic, Gundam. You do remember it's a Japanese show, right
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Dec 5, 2017 07:50
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JcDent posted:Stop stealing words from Buddhism/whatever sounds exotic, Gundam. To answer your other question, I don't know what you would consider "fun" about a grim-dark setting. I guess there's Gears of War but that just seems to be generically nasty and grinding.
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Dec 5, 2017 07:51
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What's kind of funny is how little conflict there actually is in 40k as a setting. The Imperium is never going to change, Chaos is always going to be a pack of fuckups, there's no viable alternative to the Imperium as presented in the setting to the point that coming up with one means you'd be better off making your own setting, and everyone on both sides trends towards being an idiot. It's an eternal stalemate where no-one really makes any meaningful progress ever. It means there aren't all that many stakes and it's hard to care about what happens in any of it.
Night10194 fucked around with this message at 08:01 on Dec 5, 2017 |
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Dec 5, 2017 07:56
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The Orks are the real protagonists.
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Dec 5, 2017 08:03
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Seems to be the reason why there's increasing emphasis on prequel 30k stuff, since at least that's presented as part of a setting and status quo that's actively changing (for the worse) and new things are actually happening, while they can't think of anything to do with 40k but slowly hint that the setting's heading for the apocalypse or something.
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Dec 5, 2017 08:04
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Inescapable Duck posted:Seems to be the reason why there's increasing emphasis on prequel 30k stuff, since at least that's presented as part of a setting and status quo that's actively changing (for the worse) and new things are actually happening, while they can't think of anything to do with 40k but slowly hint that the setting's heading for the apocalypse or something. Now that it seems to be slouching towards having an Arc and selling the Fiction as something other than a little tie-in cash-in, they have to have some kind of over-conflict.
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Dec 5, 2017 08:11
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Liquid Communism posted:The Orks are the real protagonists. Kap'n BluddFlagg is the hero we deserve. I would pay real money for a Kap'n Simulator in which you fly your spacey hulk around Imperial space, lootin' as yer pleez.
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Dec 5, 2017 08:14
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Probably one of the few grimdark settings I really enjoy would be Reign of Steel because while it's not a fun setting (post-robot war Earth where humanity has been reduced to less than 20 million and the Zoneminds have won) there are at least glimmers of hope of the protagonists being the ones to shake up the Cold War between the Zoneminds, possibly for the better. Also the subtext of the whole setting being that the Zoneminds and Overmind are, despite being hyperintelligent AIs, emotionally at the same level of teenagers who have realized that they're afraid of death and have genocidally lashed out at mankind. There's kind of an unspoken resulting subtext of "yes they're generally slaughtering mankind and grinding down the survivors and horrifically (possibly irreversibly) polluting the Earth. They're also emotionally fallible. If you were to explain the fact that their plans are generally a massive "and then what" logical fallacy you might be able to cause them to emotionally mature and make them stop by helping them mature into actual adults".
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Dec 5, 2017 08:16
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Young Freud posted:Isn't this "Generation Kill"? Regarding Generation Kill, given that it's a dramatization of an embedded reporter and his embed company's experiences in Iraq, I would say that it's "an exception that proves the rule", as it sold itself on being a docu-drama, with all the realism so implied. Eye in the Sky is a good example of what could be done, yes. I was thinking that that was a bit overdramatized at first, but then I realized I had it confused with Good Kill. Come to think of it, Fail Safe and/or Dr. Strangelove (the parts with Slim Pickens in particular) also scratch that sort of feeling.
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Dec 5, 2017 08:34
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Yeah, it would be hard to make a grimdark setting with IoM that's competent (not perfect), in, like, just using the massive hive world populations to keep factories running in 8 hour shifts without interruptions, having an imperial faith that not only does good but fights the more regular kind of corruption within it, and flak armor being 5+/4+ against explosions, but that would be super hard and would require a new setting... and you can't have orks in an original setting :/ I'm also angry for 40K writers for doing the Star Wars EU writer thing of "bigger = better": if this conflict kills a bajillion guardsmen, it means it's important! Hives have a billion people in the upper spire alone! Twenty Space Marine chapters were deployed to fight this! I just see those numbers and I don't care. What's so charming about Middenheim and stuff is that I can read and get how people live or understand the lay of the land. In 40K, not so much.
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Dec 5, 2017 08:52
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The only non-parody thing to sell me on 40K was Dark Heresy, where your daily prayers and news are also your rations, the critical hit table is metal as gently caress, and Paranoia and Hatred are advantages. It wasn't the best system but it supports the idea that 40K is best outside Games Workshop.
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Dec 5, 2017 08:57
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JcDent posted:Yeah, it would be hard to make a grimdark setting with IoM that's competent (not perfect), in, like, just using the massive hive world populations to keep factories running in 8 hour shifts without interruptions, having an imperial faith that not only does good but fights the more regular kind of corruption within it, and flak armor being 5+/4+ against explosions, but that would be super hard and would require a new setting... and you can't have orks in an original setting :/ This is a common problem of writers being clumsy at raising stakes in a meaningful way. They mistake spectacle for suspense. The other common clumsy way is to off a few minor characters to show how powerful and badass the villain is, but this is also transparent and has the add-on effect of frequently killing the only minority/female/queer characters in a setting. But the general tone of 'The Emprah did nothing wrong!' from GW writing these days is pretty off-putting. I could accept the IoM as a lovely place that was the source of all its own worst problems until they started saying 'nuh-uh! they're actually good!' and wiping out that little bit of nuance. Also it is hilarious how every chapter of loyalist marines is described as 'exceptionally fanatical.'
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Dec 5, 2017 09:00
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It's kind of a general issue when you focus on quantity over quality for your fiction. At least some advantages to the fluff being somewhat backgrounded is that it's not hard to basically pick and choose your personal canon, which may include glorified fanfiction and things GW hasn't acknowledged for decades.
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Dec 5, 2017 10:00
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Kavak posted:Does each episode also end with the Yamato losing whatever battle it's in but escaping basically unscathed until it's cornered and torpedoed into smithereens?
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Dec 5, 2017 11:06
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Terrible Opinions posted:You kinda have that with the Bismark. Not nearly as strongly and the Bismark did get a single whole victory, but it was still an overly expensive failure that's held up as some icon. I can understand the Bismarck being idolized for detonating an entire battlecruiser and being hunted down by the entire Royal Navy in response. Of the three battleships we've discussed, it did the most just by virtue of actually fulfilling its purpose by sinking an enemy capital ship.
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Dec 5, 2017 11:24
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It's better than the Yamato, but sinking one BC with a BB still gives you a <1 K/D ratio.
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Dec 5, 2017 11:28
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In tonnage yes, but the Hood was one of the prides of the Royal Navy. Her loss with all but three hands was a huge shock.
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Dec 5, 2017 11:44
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Big fancy impractical wunderwaftens are always built to impress, often succeed in doing so and always underperform at best. Wars are nearly always won by whoever can muster the most bodies, guns and bombs to throw at the enemy before the enemy beats them, and so the great big superweapons are rarely on the winning side. (Nuclear weapons maybe being an exception) Getting wrecked before they even got to be used just makes people think 'what could have been'.
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Dec 5, 2017 11:51
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