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I don't get you all weird hatred of Shallan.
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Dec 8, 2017 07:32
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CharlestheHammer posted:I don't get you all weird hatred of Shallan. People seem to want everyone's personal issues and character growth wrapped up in book two of a ten book series.
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Dec 8, 2017 14:56
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CharlestheHammer posted:I don't get you all weird hatred of Shallan. There are a lot of characters in SA with very nuanced and surprisingly accurate portrayals of mental health disorders. Kaladin's depression, Dalinar and Tefts substance abuse, Taravangian as an extremely rapid cycling form of bipolar disorder. And then there's Shallan, who now seems out of a Lifetime Original Movie about "multiple personalities".
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Dec 8, 2017 16:31
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Veil getting drunk the first time was very “Sanderson doesn’t understand alcohol” but then he redeemed himself with how realistic Teft and Dalinar’s substance abuse was
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Dec 8, 2017 17:01
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I would really like more of Teft. He is such a well-written character, even from book 1, and now it seems he is number 2 in the hierarchy of the Windrunners.
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Dec 8, 2017 17:06
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Dravs posted:I would really like more of Teft. He is such a well-written character, even from book 1, and now it seems he is number 2 in the hierarchy of the Windrunners. Bridge 4 needs to be the next "main character." I know he already has his plans, but a man can dream, right? A book centered on Teft, Rock, Lopen, and Rlain. That's all I ask for, as there isn't a single scene that isn't made better by their presence.
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Dec 8, 2017 17:10
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Trasson posted:People seem to want everyone's personal issues and character growth wrapped up in book two of a ten book series. ConfusedUs posted:Bridge 4 needs to be the next "main character." I know he already has his plans, but a man can dream, right?
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Dec 8, 2017 17:25
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CharlestheHammer posted:I don't get you all weird hatred of Shallan. shes fine when shes not trying to be "witty"
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Dec 8, 2017 18:47
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Subvisual Haze posted:There are a lot of characters in SA with very nuanced and surprisingly accurate portrayals of mental health disorders. Kaladin's depression, Dalinar and Tefts substance abuse, Taravangian as an extremely rapid cycling form of bipolar disorder. He had to have gottn help with the substance abuse stuff. He thanks a couple people at the beginning in the acknowledgements who I'm guessing had some personal knowledge. Teft's stuff in particular was way to accurate for Sanderson to have gotten without outside help.
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Dec 8, 2017 19:24
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Subvisual Haze posted:There are a lot of characters in SA with very nuanced and surprisingly accurate portrayals of mental health disorders. Kaladin's depression, Dalinar and Tefts substance abuse, Taravangian as an extremely rapid cycling form of bipolar disorder. She doesn't have multiple person disorder, she doesn't even pretend to have it. What are you talking about.
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Dec 8, 2017 20:37
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I just remembered that Jasnah wanted to have her sister in law killed in the WoR prologue...
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Dec 8, 2017 20:38
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Law Cheetah posted:shes fine when shes not trying to be "witty" She is fine when she is being witty, some are hits some are misses who cares. She is not half as annoying as Wit who ironically has never actually been witty.
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Dec 8, 2017 20:38
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Torrannor posted:I just remembered that Jasnah wanted to have her sister in law killed in the WoR prologue... She also suggested genocide to prevent evil spren from respawning
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Dec 8, 2017 21:02
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CharlestheHammer posted:She is fine when she is being witty, some are hits some are misses who cares. no she's not. she's awful
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Dec 8, 2017 21:17
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Both Shallan and Wit are clever, but not half as clever and good as Jasnah is written. Personal opinions at work in this thread.
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Dec 8, 2017 21:44
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https://www.reddit.com/r/Stormlight_Archive/comments/7g4bvv/oathbringer_we_are_the_oathbringer_beta_reader/dqgsqgp/quote:I was also told to point out that both Brandon's editor, Moshe, and Tom Doherty's Assistant Robert had significant input/things to say on that scene, one saying she didn't get drunk fast enough, the other saying she got drunk too fast!
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Dec 8, 2017 22:30
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I jumped right into WarBreaker after finshing Oathbreaker because I like connected universe poo poo and I can’t say I have any regrets. It’s an easy transition. I do feel like I am starting to see the the limitations of Sanderson as a writer though. One character starts to bleed into the next without a break. I feel like I need to discover this “Wayne” character if he’s as awesome as Lopen though so I’ll probably dive into the Mistborn novels next.
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Dec 8, 2017 22:34
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Law Cheetah posted:no she's not. she's awful She is the most interesting of the main cast and can be pretty funny, sometimes. Kal waffles depending on how moody he is and Dalinar......exists I guess.
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Dec 8, 2017 22:34
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eszett engma posted:https://www.reddit.com/r/Stormlight_Archive/comments/7g4bvv/oathbringer_we_are_the_oathbringer_beta_reader/dqgsqgp/ All that help and it was still like an alien describing human alcohol consumption
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Dec 8, 2017 22:36
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Jayisspecial posted:I jumped right into WarBreaker after finshing Oathbreaker because I like connected universe poo poo and I can’t say I have any regrets. It’s an easy transition. I do feel like I am starting to see the the limitations of Sanderson as a writer though. One character starts to bleed into the next without a break. I feel like I need to discover this “Wayne” character if he’s as awesome as Lopen though so I’ll probably dive into the Mistborn novels next. Note that Wayne makes his debut in "The Alloy of Law," which is the first in the second set of Mistborn novels. The first set of Mistborn novels are fairly early in his career. I looooove the first one in that trilogy, but I rate the second as one of his worst books. Maybe THE worst. Mistborn 3 is pretty good tho, and has one of his best plot twists.
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Dec 8, 2017 22:39
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Thanks. I was hoping i wouldn’t have to go that far back. That’s a lot of reading ahead of me. So be it.
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Dec 8, 2017 22:45
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Jayisspecial posted:Thanks. I was hoping i wouldn’t have to go that far back. That’s a lot of reading ahead of me. So be it. There are good parts to the 2nd book, it's just overall it feels like treading water.
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Dec 9, 2017 00:03
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Sanderson is too nice of a person to do humor really effectively.
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Dec 9, 2017 14:07
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mewse posted:All that help and it was still like an alien describing human alcohol consumption Following is a personal dig at Brandon and his religious status, fair warning He's literally a Mormon, and by Mormon I mean "Has traveled to other countries to live with The Natives and convert them to Mormonism"
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Dec 9, 2017 23:03
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Potato Salad posted:Following is a personal dig at Brandon and his religious status, fair warning Yeah I was watching for it because I know his religion and I remember Wayne from mistborn having a night out at the bar
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Dec 10, 2017 01:49
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CharlestheHammer posted:She doesn't have multiple person disorder, she doesn't even pretend to have it. Am I the only one who gave Sanderson a pass on this and just assumed that the Hollywood style depiction wasn't an attempt at a genuine depiction of the real life version but rather an illustration of unintended/dangerous consequences of the magic system (i.e. how Shallan's issues are being enabled by her Lightweaving powers)?  Because in reading the Reddit beta AMA and 17th Shard/Sanderson blog posts on the behind the scenes stuff, you get a glimpse at what is a pretty incredible writing process that's quite focused on craft. And there are many examples of how he can write something that he has no experience with/no personal belief in very well (e.g. Jasnah's beliefs). This point was bound to have come up in the alpha, beta and gamma reader comments (just like the love triangle stuff and the "witty" comments). Anyway, Shallan/Veil/Radiant are only possible in the way they are because of Lightweaving. I'm inclined to think that maybe we're seeing Sanderson show why there's a very good reason why Lightweavers make no oaths beyond the first and instead have to speak truths in order to advance. Sounds like it might be necessary for hanging onto reality/sanity, right?
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Dec 11, 2017 12:31
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Leng posted:there's a very good reason why Lightweavers make no oaths beyond the first and instead have to speak truths in order to advance. Sounds like it might be necessary for hanging onto reality/sanity, right? I had a question to ask for a WoB submission about corundum, but I'm now way more curious about this theory
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Dec 11, 2017 16:29
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Leng posted:This point was bound to have come up in the alpha, beta and gamma reader comments (just like the love triangle stuff and the "witty" comments). Anyway, Shallan/Veil/Radiant are only possible in the way they are because of Lightweaving. I'm inclined to think that maybe we're seeing Sanderson show why there's a very good reason why Lightweavers make no oaths beyond the first and instead have to speak truths in order to advance. Sounds like it might be necessary for hanging onto reality/sanity, right? I read Shallan's situation along these lines myself. The multiple "selves" thing may be unique to her, but I got the feeling that Lightweavers as a group are somewhat unstable.
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Dec 11, 2017 16:37
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It’s pretty much the opposite with her though, the truths being something she can no longer pretend away is what drove her even deeper towards her alternate personalities thing.
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Dec 11, 2017 18:36
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Avalerion posted:It’s pretty much the opposite with her though, the truths being something she can no longer pretend away is what drove her even deeper towards her alternate personalities thing. I'd argue it's the only way she can get better, stop pretending and face reality. It sucks, but it can be dealt with and she can continue on.
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Dec 11, 2017 21:37
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I just noticed this on my re-read: "Do you have any more visions of Nohadon?" Dalinar asked the Stormfather, hopeful. I have shown you all that was created for you to see, the Stormfather said. I can show no more. I wonder if he's being extremely literal and hiding something, or I'm just reading too much into this. Another thing I've been wondering: Can bonded spren form shardblades/shardwhatevers wherever they are, or do they actually have to form in their Radiant's hand? I started wondering when Kaladin's hands were bound by the parshmen. If they were bound in such a way that he couldn't grasp a blade, would Syl still be able to form something to cut him free?
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Dec 12, 2017 01:25
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Sanderson is very deliberate in his wording. Whether it means what you think it means, is another story. Remember with the shard blade stuff the whole "To my knowledge it has never happened" (or something like that) is worded that way as to not rule it out. And as we can see with Adolin, Mayalaran appears to be coming back.
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Dec 12, 2017 02:04
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Spren have hilariously plot convenient memory. The don't remember useful information until you've already done it This is by design. The whole purpose behind the spren not remembering poo poo until you've already figured it out and locking power ups behind specific oaths is slow down the Radiants' progession and hopefully stop them from accidentally nuking this planet like they did the last one
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Dec 12, 2017 04:58
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rafikki posted:I just noticed this on my re-read: I think it's more that the Stormfather existed when Nohadon lived. He knows of the man and has his own memories of Nohadon. Possibly valuable memories, but they weren't created by Honor to show Dalinar or anyone else, and he can't/won't share his own memories of Nohadon because that's just how the Stormfather is.
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Dec 12, 2017 05:05
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Subvisual Haze posted:Spren have hilariously plot convenient memory. The don't remember useful information until you've already done it This is by design. The whole purpose behind the spren not remembering poo poo until you've already figured it out and locking power ups behind specific oaths is slow down the Radiants' progession and hopefully stop them from accidentally nuking this planet like they did the last one Another very plot convenient thing is Jasnah just refusing to tell everyone what she knows. Not only has she been sitting on the recreance/voidbringer thing for a while, there's a pretty good chance she's concealing the fact that she has shardplate for some reason, while everyone else is totally confused as to how it works other than it's gated behind a higher oath somehow.
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Dec 12, 2017 05:30
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Subvisual Haze posted:Spren have hilariously plot convenient memory. The don't remember useful information until you've already done it This is by design. The whole purpose behind the spren not remembering poo poo until you've already figured it out and locking power ups behind specific oaths is slow down the Radiants' progession and hopefully stop them from accidentally nuking this planet like they did the last one Except the stormfather, who at least has the decency to say when something is classified
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Dec 12, 2017 05:43
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So I finally got around to reading the book a few days ago, had a chance to digest what I read, and caught up on the last half dozen mostly redacted thread pages. I have to agree with the posters saying this was the weakest of the three books, and I thought it the most mechanically flawed. More so than the first two, this one felt not just like it could have been better, but like it should have been. Like others, I found many events that were seemingly significant did not manage to hit the same highs as similar, or similarly portentous, events in WoK and WoR. Wrt mechanics, IMO this has always been Sanderson's biggest weakness, and the actual word choices and sentence structures in this one felt clunkier and looser than most of his more recent works, to the point that the story was not able to entirely distract from/conceal this like his usually are. POV-wise: Kaladin was pretty good, but I thought his best chapters were the early ones, which the latter never quite lived up to. Dalinar was excellent. Everyone else was solid. Except for Shallan, who was difficult. Hers was the only POV that seemed to suck the life out of the story like it was stormlight, and I eventually had the same reaction to her chapters as I often do to the Interludes - "Aw, man, I want to read about the main story." This reaction wasn't even fair most of the time since her arc was/is very much central to the main story, but it serves to illustrate how much trouble I had with her POV. All of this said, I thought it was really good. It just could have been great. Also: despite all the crazy poo poo that happens, I think my absolute favorite scenes were when Adolin confesses to Sadeas' murder and the reaction falls on the spectrum of "oh good" to "oh well." CharlestheHammer posted:She is the most interesting of the main cast and can be pretty funny, sometimes. To each their own when it comes to matters of humor, but I find this such an alien perspective. Shallan isn't witty. She is particularly not witty when she's trying to be witty. At times, it's almost hard to believe that Shallan isn't being intentionally written as an inept comedic try-hard - Sanderson has, after all, written a few legitimately funny / clever / witty characters, so the capacity is there to not paint someone intended to be funny as a pretentiously bludgeoning joke factory - except that who would want to read about, let alone from the POV of, that? On the other hand, Jasnah's big moment of cleverness was Facebook material, so... ekeog posted:Another very plot convenient thing is Jasnah just refusing to tell everyone what she knows. Not only has she been sitting on the recreance/voidbringer thing for a while, there's a pretty good chance she's concealing the fact that she has shardplate for some reason, while everyone else is totally confused as to how it works other than it's gated behind a higher oath somehow. The big twist will be that Jasnah has been stuck on the third ideal for years and is yet to figure out how the hell it's done when Shallan accidentally summons hers by drawing herself wearing it.
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Dec 12, 2017 06:41
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Habibi posted:To each their own when it comes to matters of humor, but I find this such an alien perspective. Shallan isn't witty. She is particularly not witty when she's trying to be witty. At times, it's almost hard to believe that Shallan isn't being intentionally written as an inept comedic try-hard - Sanderson has, after all, written a few legitimately funny / clever / witty characters, so the capacity is there to not paint someone intended to be funny as a pretentiously bludgeoning joke factory - except that who would want to read about, let alone from the POV of, that? They couldn't be any more explicit that the 'academic who tries to be clever' persona is as much a charade as the rest of them, just created first out of crippling insecurity that someone so broken could be a successful lighteyed woman. If you finished that book and think Shallan-trying-to-be-witty is in any way her authentic self I don't know what to tell you.
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Dec 12, 2017 06:55
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ekeog posted:They couldn't be any more explicit that the 'academic who tries to be clever' persona is as much a charade as the rest of them, just created first out of crippling insecurity that someone so broken could be a successful lighteyed woman. If you finished that book and think Shallan-trying-to-be-witty is in any way her authentic self I don't know what to tell you. Er. I'm not saying Shallan-trying-to-be-witty (or any iteration of Shallan) is her authentic self, or that that persona isn't a charade. I'm making no commentary (I don't think?) on who the real Shallan is. I'm just saying Shallan is not funny, for any value of Shallan we've seen so far.
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Dec 12, 2017 07:05
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Habibi posted:To each their own when it comes to matters of humor, but I find this such an alien perspective. Shallan isn't witty. She is particularly not witty when she's trying to be witty. At times, it's almost hard to believe that Shallan isn't being intentionally written as an inept comedic try-hard - Sanderson has, after all, written a few legitimately funny / clever / witty characters, so the capacity is there to not paint someone intended to be funny as a pretentiously bludgeoning joke factory - except that who would want to read about, let alone from the POV of, that?
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Dec 12, 2017 07:13
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