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Sarsapariller posted:I think it's pretty clear that they're going to shift the message to "It's your hardware, stupid. See look at all these streamers getting smooth framerates, the problem is that your computer is inadequate." Let's talk about this in reference to the WTFOsaurus mission vid. So he clearly has top-of-the-line hardware, he's played the loving game a kajillion times, and yet he was astonished to be able to complete a simple mission. Plus the thing looked cool 30% of the time and like poo poo 70% of the time, he kept having to do the vidya equivalent of jiggling the handle on the toilet (powering the pilot console on and off to get the door to work, etc.), there were tons of bugs (having to go back for the crate, the delivery agent NPC interaction not working). And it was super boring to boot. I am going to walk to the post office shortly, and it will take me less time and likely be more interesting than that crapsack of a mission. So even optimal gameplay, when your ship doesn't spawn upside down and your guy doesn't turn into a freakish Lovecraftian horror, is just a dull slog. How could anyone really enjoy doing anything in this game but griefing and slaughtering people's dudes wantonly?
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Dec 11, 2017 18:00
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Don't they have like only 3 people actually working on their networking team? They have been desperately looking for others but can't find any? Maybe things have moved on and they have more now
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Dec 11, 2017 18:01
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AlbieQuirky posted:Plus the thing looked cool 30% of the time and like poo poo 70% of the time, he kept having to do the vidya equivalent of jiggling the handle on the toilet https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZPqlKFtG7Y
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Dec 11, 2017 18:03
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Enchanted Hat posted:
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Dec 11, 2017 18:07
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El Grillo posted:Don't they have like only 3 people actually working on their networking team? They have been desperately looking for others but can't find any? Maybe things have moved on and they have more now They had 6 at one point. Supposedly according to ATV 3 to handle current servers/fixes and 3 to design the revolutionary new mmo server meshing system. But according to Clive no one has started server meshing. 1 left about a month ago.
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Dec 11, 2017 18:07
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Toops posted:I've heard it and used it fairly often myself, so Fair enough, I may have judged the CIG guy too harshly then. I have always heard and seen it as heartbeat, tick frequency, etc. Never frame. In the olden days the update loop was the heart of an MMO server. But modern servers don't really work like that anymore. Everything is parallelized, and while there is usually a central arbiter of time, you don't really need a mother-loop. Of course there is a loop (or equivalent) whenever there is a processing queue (which is what I mentioned as plumbing). E.g. you have a loop processing network traffic and relaying it to relevant services, and the outbound traffic is probably also handled as a queue somewhere. But depending on architecture you have task mechanisms and/or micro-services which don't rely on any central loop, but instead have a combination of database access and queue/message bus style communication, to power whatever the taks or service does. You could see it as many loops, but there is generally a lot of synchronization primitives involved to avoid busy-waiting. Favor of lockless/atomics is changing that paradigm, but that's a relatively recent development. So you could have a service handling a spatial segment, a service handling an auction house, a service handling mob spawns, a service handling world events, etc. These don't share a loop, so it doesn't make sense to talk about an fps or heartbeat for these. Now there is certainly some kind of time arbiting and state synchronization, but that's a different thing. The core of the client is certainly a couple of loops (physics, render, game logic, possibly more/less, depends). But serverside you really need scalability, and that requires not having reliance on old-fashioned loop-based processing. I remember when PS3 came out and everyone was talking about the death of game update loops and how we'd all be writing games in Haskell. This never materialized, as the promise of a bajillion cores never came true. But we are seeing the loop being treated as a relaying mechanism where anything remotely processing intensive should be shipped off to a thread. For reference, my game dev time hasn't been uninterrupted and I've also spent some years working on fintech servers and trading application, but there's a lot of similarities interestingly enough. I am back being (mostly) a game dev, though. PederP fucked around with this message at 18:22 on Dec 11, 2017 |
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Dec 11, 2017 18:17
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Sandweed posted:I don't remember this. Please elaborate. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eWcBPYES2og
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Dec 11, 2017 18:17
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Dec 11, 2017 18:19
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imagine really wishing you had a virtual bag to carry your virtual clothes to your virtual spaceship
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Dec 11, 2017 18:28
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Spuckuk posted:Mate of mine works in Foundry 42, he's been trying to get out for a year now :/ So they're holding him against his will? Better alert the bobbies.
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Dec 11, 2017 18:29
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These are the people who hijacked what was once a space shooter. I guess the net positive that could come from this is if CIG ever releases anything, regardless of quality, it will serve as a nice quarantine zone for these ... things.
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Dec 11, 2017 18:32
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When I spawn my ship I want its delivery to be delayed because the crane operator just found out that he's going to be the father. I want to drive him to the hospital and watch another player deliver that child during an intricate minigame. I want the NPC to name the child after me. I don't want to die alone.
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Dec 11, 2017 18:32
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Dec 11, 2017 18:34
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We've already seen how intensely frustrating this is even when half implemented. Fly across the system and then die to a bug- whoops your ship stayed but you respawned back at Port Olisar, and now you literally cannot access that ship without destroying it. Sucks to be you! Try to land on a pad at Levski? Sorry, all (4) landing pads are full- and you can't load cargo if you land in the dirt outside! Sucks to be you! Try to complete a box-retrieval mission in space? Whoops, you brought a military fighter to a mission where there are guaranteed to be pirates! Too bad the box won't fit in your cockpit! Sucks to be you! But then on top of that it's abstracted in the stupidest ways. Like, you can only equip two weapons on your person, but you can buy all of the weapons and changing them out is a matter of opening your wrist menu and then swapping inventory slots. You can carry 10 tons of guns around in subspace at all times, I guess? This despite half of the ships having fidelitously modeled weapon racks that were supposed to be used to hold guns. So why bother only allowing two inventory slots if the player can swap to any gun they've ever purchased at any time? "It'll all make sense once Chris has made every system fully persistent" says the Citizen, doubling down. "All of the problems you point to above are because it is only halfway finished!" Then why are they kicking it out the door this way? After five years none of these people believe that what they see is what they're getting, despite all evidence to the contrary.
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Dec 11, 2017 18:37
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Let's mesh!
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Dec 11, 2017 18:37
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C-Bangin' it 
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Sarsapariller posted:Then why are they kicking it out the door this way? After five years none of these people believe that what they see is what they're getting, despite all evidence to the contrary. Amusing thing is that there's no loving way this is passing console certification. Like absolutely no loving way. Literally cannot even go there.
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Dec 11, 2017 18:47
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PederP posted:Fair enough, I may have judged the CIG guy too harshly then. I have always heard and seen it as heartbeat, tick frequency, etc. Never frame. Ok right on, totally agree. When I refer to "The" update loop it's typically with specific use-cases in mind. The WoW raid instance is a good example. Destiny 2 is another one. Although I don't consider Destiny2 an MMO, it's a multiplayer online game with instance limit set to ~16. I don't consider Path of Exile an MMO, and GGG wrote a blog about it called Why we hate being called an MMORPG. PoE only allows "a few dozen" players per area, and party limit is 5. The add the chat, auction house, LFG, etc microservices which connect many more players (potentially) but you're totally right, these are independent of any "master" game loop, and look more like web apps than games. So when I spawn into an area in Destiny2, I connect to a server instance running its version of the game and it manages me and 15 others. Path of Exile I load into a town, that's a game instance with its own update(), max of around a few dozen people. Party up and go killing monsters, new instance with its own update() and a max of 5 ppl. etc. Appreciate your insights and the convo. I haven't been paid to game dev in a long time, but I still keep doing my own side projects. Someday maybe I'll make my own studio. I have a feeling it would end in disaster and heartbreak though, like most game dev studios.
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Dec 11, 2017 18:49
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Foo Diddley posted:Half a motherfucking decade into development and they are just now realizing that their FPS engine can't do an MMO. And they can't just scrap and rewrite everything that they need to, because people are playing the game already. They have to completely overhaul the engine, but do it bit by bit without breaking anything too badly, so that they can show constant progress to the backers. Good luck with that, CIG They knew the engine couldn't do an MMO years ago, and now they just proved it with 3.0. 3.0 is literally the result of everything going to plan. Now they have a build that is currently costing them $3m a month to sit on top of and debug. CIG Networking tech just let the cat out of the bag, because he's saying that networking is working as intended and in fact as expected - it's just that the amount of poo poo being thrown at it saturates it.
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Dec 11, 2017 18:50
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SomethingJones posted:They knew the engine couldn't do an MMO years ago, and now they just proved it with 3.0. This is something I called in my July blog two years ago, when I stated the following: "a project with at least one insurmountable problem never passes zero percent completion, no matter how many other development goals are met." This is independent of Chris Roberts involvement being its own 100% guarantee of project failure. CIG keeps showing these small, incremental pieces of complete bullshit, and passes each and every one of them off as progress toward some amorphous goal and endpoint. No, CIG, you're not X% completed - you're 0% completed, and you'll always be 0% completed no matter how much work you do, because your core technology is impossible as designed and built. You hosed up from the jump, and now you're full-on hosed and there's nothing you can do about it except scrap everything, fire Chris, start all over again, and plan it right. That's how you get past 0%.
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Dec 11, 2017 18:57
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This sounds like a really fun game.
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Dec 11, 2017 19:09
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D_Smart posted:God, I hope he does it. If nothing else, it will solidify what I've said all along, that this game is FUBAR; let alone ever becoming an MMO. I don't see why CIG keeps trying to hammer Cryengine into a MMO shaped hole that if obviously doesn't fit into. IMO they should just take what they've got, drop the player count back to 24, allow players to host games, do what they can to fix it up and then slap the Squadron 42 script into it. So it's not a MMO, big deal. S42 was always supposed to be a single player or small group experience. Then they can salvage what assets they can, port them into a engine that's actually usable for a MMO and start fresh without the huge truckload of Cryengine baggage. Of course they'd still have the same management, so I'm not sure how much that'd help.
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Dec 11, 2017 19:12
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Not to spoil the E.L.E., but there's a money panic going on behind the scenes at CIG right now. It goes along the lines that CR thought the game would be done by now, and he also banked on selling fuckloads of copies "off the shelf."  Obviously neither of those things happened, or will happen. So now they're juggling the following hilariously contradictory financial balls: - Need to reduce staff to cut costs - Not making it look like they're cutting staff to cut costs - Needing more staff to get the "game" working - Added expense of hosting "MMO" style persistent game servers - Keeping the ship sales coming to cover those added expenses - Having nothing to show that would encourage continued spending And last but very much not least: - Rejuvenating the existing flagging backer morale for more cash - Hilariously, and I am not making this up, a marketing push for SQ42 meant to compete with COD and is literally being counted on to bring in millions in new money Which ball will be dropped first, I wonder? Scruffpuff fucked around with this message at 19:15 on Dec 11, 2017 |
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Dec 11, 2017 19:13
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Scruffpuff posted:Not to spoil the E.L.E., but there's a money panic going on behind the scenes as CIG right now. It goes along the lines that CR thought the game would be done by now, and he also banked on selling fuckloads of copies "off the shelf." if true, confirms my viewpoint of this thing. Scruffpuff posted:Obviously neither of those things happened, or will happen. So now they're juggling the following hilariously contradictory financial balls: Classic corner case right there. CiG; best start working on the modding manual now, so the invested whales can attempt to fix your janky Sandi's career vehicle into something approaching a product. Edit: SQ42 is the new sockpuppet jesus thing. Delicious.
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Dec 11, 2017 19:17
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Scruffpuff posted:Not to spoil the E.L.E., but there's a money panic going on behind the scenes at CIG right now. It goes along the lines that CR thought the game would be done by now, and he also banked on selling fuckloads of copies "off the shelf." Step one would be show some Squadron 42 cutscenes at the holiday livestream. That is, if they can get them to work. We haven't seen hide nor hair of them and I would assume that if they were at least presentable we would have seen some of them by now, just to boost some sales.
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Dec 11, 2017 19:18
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Scruffpuff posted:Not to spoil the E.L.E., but there's a money panic going on behind the scenes at CIG right now. It goes along the lines that CR thought the game would be done by now, and he also banked on selling fuckloads of copies "off the shelf." spoil the ELE. You will outcall Derek after too many years of cockteasing and make his literal hundreds of tweets about the ELE moot.
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Dec 11, 2017 19:21
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SCtrumpHaters posted:spoil the ELE. You will outcall Derek after too many years of cockteasing and make his literal hundreds of tweets about the ELE moot. Hint: the SQ42 major-league push, along with all its advertising and marketing, was supposed to be ready to roll by this coming Friday.
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Dec 11, 2017 19:25
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Dooguk posted:I hear Star Citizen is future locked. Star Citizen : its future is locked
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Dec 11, 2017 19:25
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Scruffpuff posted:Hint: the SQ42 major-league push, along with all its advertising and marketing, was supposed to be ready to roll by this coming Friday. Oh good. I'm looking forward to seeing what they've got.
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Dec 11, 2017 19:26
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Toops posted:HAHAHA holy poo poo. That guy has no loving idea what he’s talking about. That’s written like your Michael Scott level manager or customer service rep that hears the engineers say words and thinks if he re-uses the words that means he’s an expert on the subject. So... he's MoMA?
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Dec 11, 2017 19:29
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Drunk Theory posted:Oh good. I'm looking forward to seeing what they've got. It was supposed to be ready, but it's not. The deadline was officially missed. It doesn't really matter what they show now, or when they show it. The date was everything.
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Dec 11, 2017 19:31
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Scruffpuff posted:- Rejuvenating the existing flagging backer morale for more cash it was like $40m or something insane like that, I wonder if they folded that into development costs and need a new injection of cash to do some heavy marketing
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Dec 11, 2017 19:32
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dear crobbers, you gave me the gift of 3.0 this year and I know its asking a lot, but I've been hearing about the pusher vignette for like 15 months now so could you please please please release that before xmas I promise to leave you a bag full of money and some weed next to the fireplace signed hopefully yours, theagent
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Dec 11, 2017 19:34
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Goosfraba posted:So... he's a Star Citizen?
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Dec 11, 2017 19:35
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D_Smart posted:What Clive wrote is absolutely and patently insane. If I didn't read that with my own eyes, I wouldn't have believed it. wow. The grapevine (which is 70% accurate) was saying over 6 months ago that the plan to rebuild the networking wasn't started yet. The first hint at this being true was from a post by Ben Parry on FDev forum. Now it's confirmed. Ben Parry described this as 'the big network task' or something along those lines. Everyone knows this is the elephant in the room, as I'm sure you're aware. It'll be in his post history. The meshing was thoroughly debunked by a network guru on Fdev forum, guy called Asp Explorer. Really lovely guy, let me tell you he knows his stuff inside out and backwards.
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Dec 11, 2017 19:36
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Toops posted:I still can’t get over the fact that the CLIENT has to run every single player’s loving physics simulation. I mean jesus christ. Each client is ALREADY doing their own physics simulation locally, Just send the position updates to the server, what kind of broke rear end poo poo is this. The interface between physics and inputs is the IFCS layer. The IFCS layer is also the backbone of the networking of the spaceflight part. The network doesn't communicate inputs, it communicates flight controller states and physics which are validated synced and send back to server for all player ships (AI ships do not fly physics based) Combat Theory fucked around with this message at 19:39 on Dec 11, 2017 |
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Dec 11, 2017 19:37
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Scruffpuff posted:It was supposed to be ready, but it's not. The deadline was officially missed. It doesn't really matter what they show now, or when they show it. The date was everything. I would like to caution you about the perils of calling it... May I recommend the “Warlord Hedge” where you call it but also call what would happen if your call flops?
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Dec 11, 2017 19:38
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Scruffpuff posted:Hint: the SQ42 major-league push, along with all its advertising and marketing, was supposed to be ready to roll by this coming Friday. Looks like it'll be a special on netcode instead! https://robertsspaceindustries.com/spectrum/community/SC/forum/50259/thread/net-code-special/775848
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Dec 11, 2017 19:41
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Combat Theory posted:The interface between physics and inputs is the IFCS layer. “Hello Server” “Hello Client” “Please open up sockets for every player in the instance and stream me their controls input” “No problemo!” *HADOKEN! HADOKEN! HADOKEN!! SHOOOOOORYUKEN!!!!* “Server Wins! Perfect!”
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Dec 11, 2017 19:42
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Drunk Theory posted:Oh good. I'm looking forward to seeing what they've got.  Scruffpuff posted:It was supposed to be ready, but it's not. The deadline was officially missed. It doesn't really matter what they show now, or when they show it. The date was everything. No poo poo. Last weekend to get some of the floating Christmas cash. They'll need to start priming for the January push. Toops posted:I would like to caution you about the perils of calling it... Just take both positions, and never stop calling anything ever. It's position-meshing. Hav fucked around with this message at 19:47 on Dec 11, 2017 |
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Dec 11, 2017 19:43
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Scruffpuff posted:It was supposed to be ready, but it's not. The deadline was officially missed. It doesn't really matter what they show now, or when they show it. The date was everything. Marketing manager (I forget her name) quit not too long ago. Vacancy was refreshed and edited a couple of days ago.
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Dec 11, 2017 19:44
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