|
BrutalistMcDonalds posted:my life for rojava
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2017 03:44
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 20, 2024 03:07 |
|
|
In Lenin's time they would just send a guy to double tap your brain pan. There's nothing about poisoning someone with polonium that makes modern states more ruthless or deadly than 100 years ago.rudatron posted:No, the truth is nuch simpler. Just as Aabamas republicans support Roy Moore to stick it the libs, your going to support Assad to...also stick it to the libs. The simple truth is that this support is not based on any rational or scientific thinking, its motivated by a very specific emotion: spite. Its not-US, therefore good. Everything else, the 11th dimensional chess, the larping, everything else, is just a rationalization to cover that up, to hide that fact. Its a post hoc justification for a conclusion already reached. I support Assad because all the big rebel groups in Syria are far right reactionary genocidaires. As for the rest of your post, you're pretty much just insisting that the observable historical record doesn't mean anything and we can't learn anything from all the examples that are comparable to the present. If you don't believe that history is comparable to the present, then history has no value and you may as well just not call yourself a communist for all your talk of needing new tactics and strategies.
|
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2017 03:48
|
|
|
History didn't repeat itself, even if sometimes it can rhyme. I never claimed you can't learn from history, but you have to keep your eyes open and consider the context. You can't just pig headedly apply old ideas, you have to ask whether the assumptions behind them are valid. I gave 3 reasons for why the context is massively divergent, and why it matters. And no one has ever bothered to address them.
|
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2017 03:53
|
|
|
Is nuclear war imperialist?
|
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2017 03:59
|
|
|
ATP_Power posted:Is nuclear war imperialist? it's merciful
|
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2017 04:02
|
|
|
rudatron posted:History didn't repeat itself, even if sometimes it can rhyme. I never claimed you can't learn from history, but you have to keep your eyes open and consider the context. You can't just pig headedly apply old ideas, you have to ask whether the assumptions behind them are valid. Nobody addressed them because they're all stupid. You said that a national bourgeoisie could call for support by airlift from the whole globe, despite the fact that in this new millenium there was a successful Maoist revolution in Nepal. You think MAD is somehow more dangerous for the prospect of a revolution, but the world's biggest nuclear power literally fell apart. Moreover, nobody is going to use nuclear weapons to stop a revolution. That's asinine. You also think that modern surveillance methods mean that any organized action against the state is impossible, but the Chinese can't even stop Uighur terror attacks, or even entire cities revolting against state policy and having to settle for concessions. You think that Russia's secret police is some kind of significant threat, but in Lenin's time the Okhrana would torture you for days in a basement before shooting you in the head and dumping your body in a river.
|
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2017 04:07
|
|
|
ATP_Power posted:Is nuclear war imperialist? It's the only hope for a better future 
|
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2017 04:36
|
|
|
lmao at the tankies in this thread larping their 3rd dimensional chess game, 11th dimensional chess is actually a product of the russian fascist regime. 26th dimensional chess is the rational choice for tankies because of the cult of personality of Lenin, who larped his own 61st dimensional chess in 1917.
|
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2017 04:46
|
|
|
Pener Kropoopkin posted:Nobody addressed them because they're all stupid. You said that a national bourgeoisie could call for support by airlift from the whole globe, despite the fact that in this new millenium there was a successful Maoist revolution in Nepal. But Nepal is a relatively peripheral nation, Russia's the ninth most populous state on the planet. Would the international community really act the same way? I could easily see NATO intervene in exchange for possible Russian admittance. (Or even just forcing Russian isolation) You know better than I do about reactionaries readiness to put aside former differences to crush the left Odobenidae posted:lmao at the tankies in this thread larping their 3rd dimensional chess game, 11th dimensional chess is actually a product of the russian fascist regime. 26th dimensional chess is the rational choice for tankies because of the cult of personality of Lenin, who larped his own 61st dimensional chess in 1917. Didn't go for the obvious 69th dimension joke, 4/20
|
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2017 06:01
|
|
|
Nepal also has the literal largest mountain range in the world to prevent foreign incursions, and it's also a land-locked country that's of no major importance to any of the powers it borders. Syria isnt' like that, and most other periphery countries aren't, and the instant of those periphery countries 'flips', the 'pole' country that's closest to it will invade/win/send lots of air support and tanks and such. Case in point: Syria, Assad wouldn't have been anywhere close to where he is without the massive tank arsenal he bought from Russia, or the continuous material and air support he gets from Russia, or the ground support from Iran. That's not to pick on Syria in particular, that's true basically everywhere else, and would be true in Nepal, where it actually important, or had a major enough economic development such that it was more than a collection of small mountain villages. The global revolution isn't going to start from loving Nepal. And since MAD makes a world war off the table, the center 'pole' countries will never be weak enough to be kicked down, because they will themselves never get into a conflict with another country capable of actually beating them. Which is why trying to recreate the conditions of the Russian Revolution is a fools errand - it will never loving happen. You know what also didn't exist in 1917 though? Flying deathbots able to assassinate people at whim. You'll never have a charismatic figure making a speech from the barricades, because they'll just get drone striked. Or total surveillance systems capable of tracking the population autonomously. You say these systems are ineffective because they can't stop terrorist attacks, but terrorist attacks don't threaten state regimes, the only thing that can threaten then is an organized resistance system. That is the true purpose of such surveillance systems, not to prevent crime, but to prevent social change. And at that they absolutely are effective, because you're not dealing with random, lone wolf terror attacks, but a social movement that requires communication and coordination to succeed, both of which can be backtraced and uprooted, when you have this Orwellian system that knows exactly who meets who, when and where, and can do that for every single person 1 month into the past. Or you just allow opposition to exist, but subvert is so thoroughly that it's perpetually ineffective, and thereby channel the work of dissidents into pointless busywork that threatens nothing, as has been done in Russia. That's the innovative thing about the regime, not the secret police, which has always existed, but the literal Politics-As-Theatre system that Putin has managed to perfect, that takes western marketing and advertising techniques, and applies the psychology used into a political system. It's absolutely unprecedented, and can only exist in a society where mass media and social media are what they are - again, something that wasn't true back in Lenin's time.
|
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2017 07:34
|
|
|
Lenin wasn't an idiot, he was a very clever and moral person, but he wrote what he wrote because he observed the world around him, came up with some original ideas, and then applied them. You're not doing the same, in fact you're doing the opposite. In sticking to the letter of his works, in a context which is radically different and requires different treatment, you are violating the spirit in which those letters were originally made. That's is why you're LARPing, not because being a radical is somehow necessarily performative, but because the essence of role playing is the belief in a fantasy world, where one can act out their hidden and emotive desires, rather than a sober analysis of the situation at hand. And such a sober analysis of our times is depressing, because that is the world that we live in. But you don't want to believe that, you refuse to believe that, so you create an edifice into which you can escape, one in which rooting for Assad can be justified on the basis of it's imminent creation of the conditions for a world revolution, when such a thing is simply absurd. There are no winners in stupid conflicts like the Syrian war, there are no 'good guys' to root for, just a pointless parade of dead corpses.
|
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2017 07:40
|
|
|
in shocking twist rudatron applies dogmatic manichean logic to paint his opponents as manichean dogmatists
|
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2017 08:06
|
|
|
Girls your both pretty
|
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2017 08:07
|
|
|
i could go on about how seemingly endless diatribes like these are as much a kabuki act as anything, meant to position yourself as the Wise and Reasonable leftist who sees the true picture but no one on the planet would want to read it and they'd be 100 percent correct not to
|
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2017 08:09
|
|
|
Shot: quote:The previous eight pages Chaser: rudatron posted:Sanders is the path to Full Communism.
|
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2017 08:36
|
|
|
rudatron is the eliezer yudkowsky of C-SPAM
|
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2017 08:39
|
|
|
marx: "it is only possible to achieve real liberation in the real world and by employing real means. ... 'Liberation' is an historical and not a mental act, and it is brought about by historical conditions..." rudatron: "yeah, maybe in the 1850's, but today things are different"
|
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2017 09:26
|
|
|
look i'm not a tankie, but sometimes, i feel like a tank
|
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2017 09:33
|
|
|
i'm not a tankie but i did play the one visual novel game where you gently caress tanks who are girls and fellas let me tell you, it was the best game i ever played
|
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2017 09:57
|
|
|
BrutalistMcDonalds posted:look i'm not a tankie, but sometimes, i feel like a tank Man! I Feel Like a Tankie - Shania Twain (2016 Remaster)
|
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2017 10:07
|
|
|
my message to tankies https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TS3oLs1JF50
|
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2017 10:13
|
|
|
lol rudatron is right  
|
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2017 13:38
|
|
|
Aeolius posted:marx: "it is only possible to achieve real liberation in the real world and by employing real means. ... 'Liberation' is an historical and not a mental act, and it is brought about by historical conditions..." At not point did I say "well its old therefore invalid", or that Lenin is irrelevant broadly. He's not, imperialism still functions a lot in the way he described, and he obviously has valuable lessons to teach, as both a major historical + intellectual figure, and of a successful revolutionary. But geopolitics has changed dramatically both in it's specific instantiation (the rise of countries outside Europe, which includes the United States) and in it's fundamental dynamics (the presence of phenomena that simply did not exist, and had no equivalent, at the time his body of work was penned). In particular, even in a multipolar world, MAD ensures that such a configuration is 'stable', because each 'pole' has absolute protection from invasion or expansionistic wars from other poles, and the periphery can't threaten them. Which means that conflict is confined to the periphery between poles. A revolution in the perhiphery gets crushed by one or more poles, and military defeat will never bring a pole to the brink of collapse, because they can always hide behind MAD. A victory for either sides in Syria doesn't correspond to a path closer to world revolution, or anything like that, it's simply the shuffling of the deck chairs on the titanic.
|
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2017 14:45
|
|
|
i mean this argument started with saying russian involvement in syria would speed up the national bourgeoisie's decline and eventual overthrow in russia, leading to a communist revolution. that's the only point i was challenging, because it seems far fetched. china is the ascendent "empire' here, russia is an after thought.
|
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2017 15:36
|
|
|
Nobody even said anything about world revolution. You're losing the plot because you're trying too hard to seem impressive, rudatron.
|
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2017 15:44
|
|
|
Karl Barks posted:i mean this argument started with saying russian involvement in syria would speed up the national bourgeoisie's decline and eventual overthrow in russia, leading to a communist revolution. that's the only point i was challenging, because it seems far fetched. china is the ascendent "empire' here, russia is an after thought. China is also totally into Capitalist-style imperialism whose beneficiaries are businesses personally connected to party members and leaders. They want to have all of America's profit with the control over the country and people the Communist party affords them.
|
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2017 19:44
|
|
|
Yossarian-22 posted:lol rudatron is right you make a compelling case, but you're so consistently wrong it's axiomatic so idk who is right 
|
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2017 19:57
|
|
|
Xelkelvos posted:China is also totally into Capitalist-style imperialism whose beneficiaries are businesses personally connected to party members and leaders. They want to have all of America's profit with the control over the country and people the Communist party affords them. [citation needed]
|
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2017 23:04
|
|
|
|
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2017 23:56
|
|
|
Autism Sneaks posted:rudatron is the eliezer yudkowsky of C-SPAM lol
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2017 01:19
|
|
|
what does 'support' even mean. what are you the modern socialist person or org actually doing when you 'support' dubious international or historical cause X if it's just your personal judgement that x winning would be better than their immediate rivals y, who gives a poo poo. the worst thing about discussions especially of international politics is this idea that the main task is to calculate the optimal personal moral judgement if it means you're gonna feel obliged to propagandise on their behalf, bear in mind the example of the Lion Assad crew who have had no detectable effect on the public debate about the war in syria, but have managed to scoop out their own brains and become laughing stocks. e: if it means you just don't think they should be invaded and blown up by america and you want to mobilise against that, that's not really what 'support' means and you should probably avoid playing word games if it means you're a freshly-minted socialist government trying to defend a precarious and isolated international position and having to make grimly necessary decisions to survive, then go hog wild, but it doesn't actually mean that, does it? Peel fucked around with this message at 02:32 on Dec 14, 2017 |
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2017 02:28
|
|
|
Peel posted:e: if it means you just don't think they should be invaded and blown up by america and you want to mobilise against that, that's not really what 'support' means and you should probably avoid playing word games
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2017 02:37
|
|
|
R. Guyovich posted:letting the putin government continue course also denies the us and eu a compliant, resource-rich ally, which they desperately wanted with yeltsin I still don’t understand how that drunk piece of poo poo became president instead of being hanged off a street lamp
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2017 02:43
|
|
|
I have personally flown Migs for Assad the Lion
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2017 03:04
|
|
|
Pener Kropoopkin posted:all the democratic socialist revolutions in Latin America also failed. you really do have to read Lenin to understand why a national bourgeoisie isn't the same thing as the global, imperialistic bourgeoisie. an "alignment" with the West also isn't the same thing as being fully incorporated into the Western-led global empire of capital. a national bourgeoisie which invests itself into the domestic economy will be much weaker than a global one which can draw upon international resources to guarantee its rule. it's a massive power differential, and it should be obvious which one is easier to overthrow. so if I'm getting this right, it's not really about supporting autocrats or bourgeois plutocracies, its about preferring relatively isolated autocrats/bourgeois plutocracies to well-integrated ones, because isolated ones are easier for the people to smash. albeit still not at all easy to smash. but that makes sense to me! Mia Wasikowska fucked around with this message at 03:16 on Dec 14, 2017 |
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2017 03:12
|
|
|
Zas posted:so if I'm getting this right, it's not really about supporting autocrats or bourgeois plutocracies, its about preferring relatively isolated autocrats/bourgeois plutocracies to well-integrated ones, because they are easier for the people to smash. albeit still not at all easy to smash. but that makes sense to me! No revolution has ever been easy, but the chances are always better with weaker ruling classes.
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2017 03:17
|
|
|
Pener Kropoopkin posted:I have personally flown Migs for Assad the Lion I've ridden the Lion's tail. 
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2017 03:17
|
|
|
depending on how its framed i think i do agree with 'anti-imperialism', but so often the conversation is centered around personalities like assad and putin and the kims, and like whether you 'support' them or not, it seems like that has little relevance to anything in a normal persons life. like personally i actually want assad and putin and the kims to all die at the hands of their own people, so long as they aren't replaced with something worse. but as donald trump would say, you can't always get what you want.
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2017 03:30
|
|
|
Zas posted:depending on how its framed i think i do agree with 'anti-imperialism', but so often the conversation is centered around personalities like assad and putin and the kims, and like whether you 'support' them or not, it seems like that has little relevance to anything in a normal persons life. so you support cia sponsored color revolutions hmm?? 
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2017 03:47
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 20, 2024 03:07 |
|
|
Top City Homo posted:I still don’t understand how that drunk piece of poo poo became president instead of being hanged off a street lamp he was gonna lose to the communists and get thrown in jail probably but billions in oligarch/imf money and fraud kept him in office
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2017 04:01
|
|