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Zesty posted:What’s so bad about this? The only difference between playing it before rather than after the votes is the cracks form at this tribal council. People go back to the beach potentially miffed at their allies rather than focused entirely on the guy they voted for. It’s good for the audience. That would've been true if they hadn't come into this tribal council with a backup plan, but they did. I think you can tell by the lack of any real panic once Ben's idol popped out that everyone already knew what plan B was, all Ben did was make sure it went into effect. He turned the vote from what was likely a 3-2 Ben/Ashley split into a unanimous Ashley boot.
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Dec 14, 2017 14:38
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I mean if Ben really wanted to sow chaos he'd have tried to engineer a Mike-Ashley split, but yeah. All Ben really did was allow Chrissy to have no regrets about her 'vote Ashley' vendetta. And it makes sense that, if Chrissy/Ryan/Devon was a solid bloc, then you'd easily keep Mike over Ashley, who is at least an immunity threat.
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Dec 14, 2017 15:42
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https://twitter.com/RealDaveWright/status/941310932331921408
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Dec 14, 2017 16:09
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DurosKlav posted:Guess you guys should have kept a closer watch on Ben. Bet you dont make that mistake again. The move is every single one of you out there combing that beach looking for idols. Maybe one person shadowing Ben, but the focus being having all eyes out there. I'm with those that hate the idol being recycled episode after episode especially this late in the game. I think I'd prefer them to stop rehiding at 6 and definitely by 5. That being said, all the non-Ben players were straight up negligent here, so that's on them. They should have voted out Mike, not Ashley, I think. And that goes for Chrissy and Ryan pretty much too. Now they're guaranteed to be at the end with one of Devon, Mike, or Ben, all of whom I think dunk all over dweeby Ryan and fun-hating Chrissy.
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Dec 14, 2017 17:04
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ApplesandOranges posted:Survivor's changed the way it uses idols by having more of them (since you get more three-tribe games now), slipping more clues to them at rewards, 'super idols' and apparently letting people play them before the votes are even cast now. It's one thing to go in with the idol around your neck since it's a 'will they won't they' situation, but letting people pre-insure themselves is another. Is it going to catch on more, because it forces players to come up with a new boot there at Tribal (even though here they probably already had a back-up ready)? Is it Ben weakening his own position and the position of all future idol-holders because now they can't bluff that they're going to play the idol and then hold onto it anymore? You can probably create a little more wiggle room by saying you're going to play it but making them leave votes on you in case you're bluffing, and then playing it anyway... I don't know.
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Dec 14, 2017 17:07
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Ryan, hilariously, is possibly experiencing every Survivor superfan's second worst nightmare; finding out at the end of the game that you were the goat all along. (The worst nightmare is obviously being first one out.)
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Dec 14, 2017 17:09
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I think part of my annoyance with another idol play last night is that the editing of it where Ben finds it at basically the last second just made it feel really contrived even by survivor editing standards.
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Dec 14, 2017 17:26
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I'm not really a fan of how Ben was allowed to play that idol. I mean, doesn't that just completely neuter any potential for a bluff? If you whip out an idol to flash around but don't play it immediately before the vote like Ben just did, that now seems like an obvious signal that you're not ACTUALLY going to play it.
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Dec 14, 2017 17:38
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Generic American posted:I'm not really a fan of how Ben was allowed to play that idol. I mean, doesn't that just completely neuter any potential for a bluff? If you whip out an idol to flash around but don't play it immediately before the vote like Ben just did, that now seems like an obvious signal that you're not ACTUALLY going to play it. Yeah. Hopefully that was a one time thing and next season/year they change the rules to prevent that.
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Dec 14, 2017 17:45
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Fast Luck posted:They should have voted out Mike, not Ashley, I think. And that goes for Chrissy and Ryan pretty much too. Now they're guaranteed to be at the end with one of Devon, Mike, or Ben, all of whom I think dunk all over dweeby Ryan and fun-hating Chrissy. He's trading one ally and goat for two. He's now in a majority of 3 at final 5, and both Ben and Mike are realistic enough targets ahead of him that he should be able to expect Chrissy and Ryan to keep their word. Even if he burned a jury vote by throwing Ashley overboard, he should be able to beat Chrissy and Ryan, and he may still be able to win Ashley's vote back. I think it wasn't as good a move for Chrissy and Ryan. This is from an outsider's perspective, but I think they needed Ashley at F3 with them. If they'd been able to cut Ben here (obviously they couldn't, but if), you'd have Ryan/Chrissy and Devon/Ashley with Mike as the swing, and I think they could've pulled Mike in for the next vote to remove Devon. That leaves them positioned to pick Ashley to come with them to F3. Since Ben did have an idol, take Mike out here, and then either gamble by joining Ben to take out Devon and betting on taking Ben out at F4, or take out Ben at 5 and try to sell Ashley on making a "resume" move against Devon at F4.
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Dec 14, 2017 18:30
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ApplesandOranges posted:I don't know if it is a majority. But there were quite a few opinions in Game Changers that there were too many twists and advantages already. This season was slightly better, but Ben whipping out two idols in a row for me has a different vibe than Mike Holloway continuously winning immunity. At least if someone wins immunity you had the day to discuss alternate plans. The problem with Game Changes though was completely different. There were tons of advantages at the end because nobody played them. Nobody played their idols so at the end all the advantages from the early game were still in play. This season is just the normal once and idol is played we put it back in the game and then the only person looking for it is the one that nobody wanted to have it... Just the fault of the other Survivors for not looking for it or making it hard for Ben to look for it.
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Dec 14, 2017 19:18
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Yeah but I also didn't like it when Adam found an idol at F5 in MvX. It's too late in the game to be dropping in new idols imo. Let the players work with the situations they've made before this point instead of dropping in new protection after protection when it's crunch time
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Dec 14, 2017 19:31
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Fast Luck posted:Yeah but I also didn't like it when Adam found an idol at F5 in MvX. It's too late in the game to be dropping in new idols imo. Let the players work with the situations they've made before this point instead of dropping in new protection after protection when it's crunch time Pretty much my view of it. If anyone has an idol at F6 or later it should be because they've managed to hold one for awhile.
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Dec 14, 2017 19:56
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Yeah also they shouldn't have immunity at f4 either
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Dec 14, 2017 19:59
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Aside from all the other bad things about having too many idols, it's also boring loving TV watching someone hunt for an idol, because you know they are literally always going to find it but you still have to sit through an entire scene of it
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Dec 14, 2017 20:05
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xbilkis posted:Aside from all the other bad things about having too many idols, it's also boring loving TV watching someone hunt for an idol, because you know they are literally always going to find it but you still have to sit through an entire scene of it Joe didn't find his third idol and we got multiple scenes of him looking fruitlessly for it.
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Dec 14, 2017 20:41
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As far as idols go, I think the system as it is now just needs a little tweaking for it to be fine. Let there be one pre-merge idol for every starting tribe that is not rehidden when played, and one merge idol that is. Two post-merge idols is too many, despite it leading to that one amazing no votes tribal in Cambodia. Because it really does feel like they're just throwing idols at the wall at this point. If there's only one post-merge idol then you're really going to try and save it for something good, because as much as you love having it, you love your opposition NOT having it even more. As for advantages, I like the idea of tying them to significant game events like they seem to be doing here. One advantage at the start, one at the swap, one at the merge, and one at the endgame. I also like the idea of use-them-or-lose-them advantages that have to be activated when or shortly after they're found. Advantagegeddon must never be allowed to happen again.
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Dec 14, 2017 20:50
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Fast Luck posted:Yeah but I also didn't like it when Adam found an idol at F5 in MvX. It's too late in the game to be dropping in new idols imo. Let the players work with the situations they've made before this point instead of dropping in new protection after protection when it's crunch time Zerilan posted:Pretty much my view of it. If anyone has an idol at F6 or later it should be because they've managed to hold one for awhile. Amanda found one at F6 in Micronesia, and it made for great TV. Of course, things were different back then. Also Ashley's exit press is out, and she made the good point that if she hadn't completely spurned Chrissy at the reward last episode, she might have had a chance this episode. I can't blame her too much for that one though.
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Dec 15, 2017 00:36
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Maybe the HIIs need to go, but replaced with idols with various random powers. "This idol allows you to nullify X number of votes cast against you, possibly X changes on how many people are voting." "This idol allows you to change one other person's vote." "This idol allows you to view the other votes in the jar before casting your vote." Or "This is half of an Immunity idol. Both halves must be played for this idol to work. You may not be in possession of both halves."
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Dec 15, 2017 18:45
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The people complaining about hidden immunity idols are the same people who say any gimmicks or vote changing things are terrible and Survivor must remain pure. So saying that, more gimmicks please. 
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Dec 16, 2017 07:18
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Zesty posted:The people complaining about hidden immunity idols are the same people who say any gimmicks or vote changing things are terrible and Survivor must remain pure. What if they come up with a twist that allows 4 returining players enter the game at merge and make then invulnerable for their first tribal. Like Russell,Phillip,Amanda and Abi maria enters the game.
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Dec 16, 2017 08:20
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Yes yes, we all hated Redemption Island and the Outcast Twist in Pearl Islands. Speaking of redemption island... how come they don’t bring it back for an entire newbie blood vs water season? It’s the perfect fit but they keep bringing exile island back instead.
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Dec 16, 2017 10:05
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Literally anything that puts Abi Maria in the game is a ok with me.
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Dec 16, 2017 11:49
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Zesty posted:Speaking of redemption island... how come they don’t bring it back for an entire newbie blood vs water season? It’s the perfect fit but they keep bringing exile island back instead. Because it fuckin sucks.
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Dec 16, 2017 14:09
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So is there another hidden idol near the camp now? Which Ben can just go look for and find because the production is unable to do anything other than mark something with a clearly visible sign of DIG HERE?
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Dec 16, 2017 14:32
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Zesty posted:Yes yes, we all hated Redemption Island and the Outcast Twist in Pearl Islands. Anyway I think the producers and Jeff hated that poo poo even though you can't blame the contestants for figuring it out. So I don't think they'll risk doing a bvw again.
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Dec 16, 2017 14:55
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Hot take. I don't mind idols and I don't mind that they're "easy" to find (easy being relative since it took Ben a couple of days and none of the other five people noticed an idol they were literally sleeping on). It all comes down to how it plays out. Game Changers the twists hampered what looked like it could have been interesting gameplay. In this season idol play is bolstering what is otherwise very boring pagonging from very bad players. Without Ben pulling idols out of his rear end these last couple of weeks would have been pretty boring unless you're deeply invested in watching Devon win (not saying he will, just that he's obviously the last collective rooting interest). I also don't mind them "allowing" Ben to "play" his idol before the vote since it doesn't really change anything. Technically we don't even know what would have happened if Ben had said "psych, I want it back." But really the only person being hurt by that is Ben because he allowed Devon to goad him into giving up his leverage. And he didn't even get the deal he wanted out of it. I don't totally begrudge Ben doing it since he seemed like he was trying to win back some trust and make some inroads, but in hindsight he clearly should have just told Devon to gently caress off. I really don't get why Devon betrayed a loyal ally who probably wouldn't have beat him at the end. I really think he let Chrissy push him into it and since she was demanding the right to call an audible he just let her. I also question why Ben targeted Mike instead of trying to turn Ashley and Devon against Ryan and Chrissy. But I guess its hard to judge not knowing what he knows. It was funny seeing Chrissy throw a "I'm not mad" fit when Ben pulled out that idol. She's the worst, but in a very fun way. I have no idea who will win. I can see Ryan seems hopeless, Mike has been a mess all season, and Chrissy is just jury poison but I feel like everyone's been incompetent enough with jury management and chaotic enough with gameplay that its kind of a toss up. Except Ryan. I really can't see that, unless he ends up next to someone the Jury REALLY hates.
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Dec 16, 2017 16:52
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I could see Devon betraying Ashley if: -He thinks Chrissy and Ryan are a lock to take him and he's confident he can beat both. Having two guaranteed goats is better than one. -He thinks it's easier to repair damage with Ashley than with Mike. Maybe he can give the argument that he knew Chrissy/Ryan were voting Ashley and he didn't want to go to rocks, whereas with Mike it'd seem like Ben just twisted his hand into voting him out. It's weird but while I really, really dislike Chrissy, I actually wouldn't mind her coming back. Survivor doesn't have that many new villains that aren't outright malicious , especially not of the 'old woman' variety since Chaos Kass. It probably helps that she's pretty harmless and probably won't win, so you can just sit back and watch her comeuppance.
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Dec 16, 2017 17:17
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Yeah, she sucks but is a very entertaining TV character. Maybe it would have been different if he she been in control for an extended period of the game and could have really got her ego going and constantly getting her way. But the way this season has played out its been the perfect mix of her getting her way enough to keep her ego afloat while getting beat enough to leave her not mad. RE: Devon, I don't know. The "two goats" idea just doesn't really fly with me because Chrissy might be a villain but she's played this game as hard if not harder than Devon and has a resume to show for it. And this move is directly giving Chrissy what she wants and fought for so makes Devon look secondary to her, IMO. Who knows how that plays with the jury but I can easily see a very believable spin from Chrissy about how she fought her way back from being dead in the water, turned Devon on Ashley, and has been the biggest player after Ben. I'm just not convinced Devon is this slam dunk winner people seem to. I could see him winning it, but I could just as easily see him losing to a player with a much more overt game resume. Devon's game machinations have been the kind of esoteric and complicated kind that can often fall through the cracks with Jury. Like he can boast about coming up with the plan for Ben to play spy, but Ben is the one who more visibly played it out and conned Chrissy, Ryan, and Mike. And he just hurt his likability and loyalty factor with the Ashley betrayal so that even beyond potentially losing Ashley's vote if Devon could argue before that he didn't play dirty like Chrissy, Ben, and Ryan he can't really do that anymore. STAC Goat fucked around with this message at 17:32 on Dec 16, 2017 |
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Dec 16, 2017 17:28
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STAC Goat posted:since it took Ben a couple of days They probably placed the idol during the immunity challenge.
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Dec 16, 2017 17:39
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Zerilan posted:They probably placed the idol during the immunity challenge. Couldn't they just as easily have placed it during the reward challenge or even during/after the Tribal? I mean, I genuinely have no idea but it seems like they could have just had a plan in place for where to put the idol and drop the clue and done all that by lights in mere minutes while the tribe walked back to camp.
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Dec 16, 2017 17:44
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The idols are fine, they should just be clearer about the rules of whether or not they will be re-hidden or not. It seemed like, for whatever dumb reason, everyone was convinced the idol wasn't re-hidden and I think it could have been more interesting if they all knew for sure a new one was out there instead of having to read the producer's minds. The "advantages" are terrible though, but that's neither here nor there. I also don't love that Ben was allowed to play the idol before the votes. Using your idol to get the majority to turn on each other is *supposed* to be difficult because of the possibility that you are bluffing. It'd be like if someone voted early and publicly to prove who they were voting for. The game is more interesting when people have to trust each other's word or read people's bluffs, so being allowed to show your hand early sort of dampens the fun and changes the game. I think it also hurts the meta-game going forward. For example, in the Worlds Apart Tribal where Mike bluffs that he will play his idol on Shirin and tries to get the majority to turn on itself, the majority would know for sure that he was bluffing since, if not, he would play it early to force the majority to turn on itself and draw lines on the sand to take advantage of next round. It's pretty situational where this would let the majority call the idol holder's bluff (essentially needs to be a situation where the majority being forced to turn on itself is more useful than the minority choosing someone in the majority to eliminate, i.e. a mid-to-late game Tribal where the entire minority alliance would be immune), but it could happen.
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Dec 16, 2017 19:21
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I didn't get the impression the rest of the tribe didn't know there might be an idol out there. They just seemed disinterested in looking for it or babysitting Ben as he looked for it. That struck me more as the same arrogance we've seen from this crew than anything else. All along these folks have worked a real "if we have numbers everything should be easy" attitude and I think that just played out in them leaving Ben to go find another idol like he was a kid they wanted to just keep busy. Although in fairness to Chrissy she also clearly had an alternate goal that didn't really matter if Ben had an idol and arguably would have been (and ultimately was) helped by him having one. So for her it might have been a more deliberate decision. But I also think she kind of just didn't want to bother because she didn't feel she had to.
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Dec 16, 2017 19:46
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Ashley said that she tailed Ben for a bit after the immunity challenge (they talked strategy), but otherwise yeah, everyone kinda left Ben to search by himself. The edit has been kinder to Chrissy than what some of the eliminated people have said - Roark, Ali and Desi have all talked about Chrissy being pretty socially manipulative and/or just disagreeable. The only one who seems to have anything positive to say about her personality has been Ashley. So either the producers don't want to make a completely unlikable winner, or they want to leave enough wriggle room for her to come back in the future and not be immediately reviled ala Jerri.
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Dec 16, 2017 19:51
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mancalamania posted:The idols are fine, they should just be clearer about the rules of whether or not they will be re-hidden or not. It seemed like, for whatever dumb reason, everyone was convinced the idol wasn't re-hidden and I think it could have been more interesting if they all knew for sure a new one was out there instead of having to read the producer's minds. The reason was "I looked everywhere and didn't find it, therefore it must not exist", which is - as you said - a VERY dumb reason.
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Dec 16, 2017 20:03
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Yeah I know it's dumb and avoidable, but an even better and clearer way to avoid that dumb reasoning is for Jeff to explicitly state "this idol will be rehidden" at the end of a Tribal where an idol was played. I think he actually used to do that in the early idol seasons. Clarifying whether or not an idol exists only helps the drama of the show. If it exists, making players more suspicious of idol-hunters and tailing them is good TV. Alternatively, if it doesn't exist, forcing the minority to try good old social manipulation to survive instead of wasting time Easter egg hunting is also good TV.
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Dec 16, 2017 20:37
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Devon has been playing a great under-the-radar game, and one of the things you have to be able to do as an under-the-radar player is recognize when to step back and let other people make the calls. This Ashley situation was likely just one of those instances where Devon saw where things were headed and figured it wasn't worth sticking his neck out to try and stop it. According to the secret scenes, Chrissy was going to try and vote Devon out after Ben before he proposed final three with her, so it looks like Devon kept himself off the chopping block by shifting alliances at this point. Now he has an enormous target in front of him in the form of Ben, and assuming Ben goes at five, he is the physically strongest person going into the final four immunity challenge, so even if his alliance is planning to turn on him at four (which they are, according to the secret scenes), he's got a better-than-average shot at preventing that outright. Hell, even if Ben does win immunity at five, it's not necessarily an automatic Devon boot, because Ben in the final four means every other player is in panic mode. Devon could easily make the argument that the most important thing at that point is making absolutely sure Ben does not win final four immunity, which means maximizing the collective challenge strength of the other players competing with him. In other words, vote out Ryan because he's awful in challenges. Just absolutely terrible. Devon may not have won immunity yet, but he's usually at least in contention and is excellent in team challenges. Ryan can't even win a veggie wrap. Actually, that scenario might even be better for Devon, since he wouldn't have to win immunity at four to go to the finals, just as long as Ben didn't win. Now, he might have trouble explaining his game in the finals if his resume isn't obvious, but Devon has a much better resume than most under-the-radar players to begin with. He's been steadily building bonds and relationships with other players, even the ones on the bottom, and he has a remarkable talent for getting people to do what he wants without ever seeming commanding or putting a target on his back. Plus, some of the best moves in this game came straight from Devon's brain. If Ben isn't there beside him, then Devon collects all the brownie points for the Secret Agent Plan and, no matter what, he's sitting next to two people he used that plan to dunk on. If Mike is there, then technically Devon dunked on him twice; once with Secret Agent Ben, and once with the fake vote split. But really, who hasn't dunked on Dr. Mike at this point?
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Dec 16, 2017 20:38
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I think Devon's largely played a good game, although I don't think its as great as many seem to, but I still just think he has a much harder sell than Chrissy or Ben do. That still put him ahead of Mike and Ryan and he could beat out Chrissy on sheer social game if the jury goes that way. But I do think there's going to be a lot of "Well, I formed this alliance..." "Lauren did that." and "Well I came up with this idea to trick Ryan and Chrissy..." "Ben did that." He's got legitimate claim to a lot of these moves but his "I'm not going to tell you my resume until you're on the jury" thing is a tricky endeavor. If Ashley isn't sour and advocates for him she might help him out as a witness to his machinations but I could definitely see a scenario where he played too under the radar and it hurts him. That's why I think a move like this Ashley vote out potentially hurts him bad. Because its a move that on the surface looks like him bending to Chrissy's will at a key game point. But we'll have to see how it all plays out in jury. I'm realizing now i haven't watched any Ponderosa videos or listened to any exit interviews so maybe I'll do some of that before the finale and see if there's any sense of where the Jury's head is at. The only major impression I've got from you guys is that they do not like Chrissy. And I still don't have a problem with idols and I kind of feel like requesting for Jeff to explicitly tell them there's an idol in play is just kind of handicapping bad/lazy players. They were clearly aware that there MIGHT be an idol. They talked about it and we saw it. They simply made a choice to let Ben look for it. That's on them, IMO, and like I said before strikes me as the same kind of lazy, arrogant play that has really been a hallmark of this season. STAC Goat fucked around with this message at 22:38 on Dec 16, 2017 |
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Dec 16, 2017 22:36
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A week until the finale? That seems weird, normally its 2 or 3 days later no?
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Dec 17, 2017 00:38
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CODChimera posted:A week until the finale? That seems weird, normally its 2 or 3 days later no? The finale hasn'tbeen on Sundays in years
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Dec 17, 2017 00:53
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