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Zurai posted:Frankly, we could give Terra all of the Sorium refining operations on Jupiter and come out way ahead on the deal. We don't care that much about the Sorium, we care about the shipyards and population centers. I don't think Terra is in a real position to contest those -- Putina doesn't have any reason to think the former IC wageslaves would want her in power and she's on a shakier political ground than we are. We do have the Mars Firsters who won't like us swallowing the moons, but she has her own Earth First movement to worry about in addition to all the other political mess she's in. And it's not like the Sorium from Jupiter is going to suddenly make Terra independent where they weren't before -- they have their own Sorium access now. If we don't bring the Terrans onboard 100% both our factions will keep huge chunks of the Navy defending Mars & Terra because each side will always be wondering "Is this the day Mars decides its strong enough to bite? Or conversely, Are the Terrans weak enough to strike"? Zurai posted:It's true that we've been saying "Terra later" from the start, but what you're either conveniently ignoring or not realizing is that the reason for addressing them later has changed. We were forced into the Luna Accords because we absolutely 100% could not take Terra head-on. We would have lost that war badly. We didn't have a big enough tech lead on Terra to make up for their massive industrial and fleet quantity advantages. Now, however, we've seen that Terran fleet assets are woefully behind the times. I genuinely believe that we could take Terra in a one-on-one fight if we had to, now. The thing is, attacking Terra now would not be a one-on-one fight because we have to spend a significant portion of the fleet guarding against the Crabs. Thats the thing... the Terrans are building a Nu-Fleet which is a lot more advanced than we were projecting, they fixed their resource crisis... this is as weak as they will be. By saying we don't worry about UT until the Crabs are finished... well we now give them more breathing room for more good ships to be built and more advanced ships to be built. Jack2142 fucked around with this message at 22:48 on Dec 23, 2017 |
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Dec 23, 2017 22:44
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Dr. Snark posted:More importantly Dominion does not presume a shooting war as some people in the thread seem to believe. The idea behind it is that it's a diplomatic measure first, and one that ideally doesn't involve us shooting at UT. If we're going to absorb UT, it's going to involve shooting one way or the other. You're really naive if you think otherwise. And the very first goal of the Dominion plan is to effectively cause a coup in UT's government. Which do you think is going to be more effective at being a meatshield against the Crabs for us: UT, or UT embroiled in a blatantly Mars-fueled civil war? Jack2142 posted:If we don't bring the Terrans onboard 100% both our factions will keep huge chunks of the Navy defending Mars & Terra because each side will always be wondering "Is this the day Mars decides its strong enough to bite? Or conversely, Are the Terrans weak enough to strike"? Dominion of Sol plan will almost certainly cause the recall of all of the Terran fleets to Sol, with at most minor pickets in NS and their other extrasolar possessions. Meanwhile we'll have to defend one or more of the Pit, Rangi, and NS with major fleet elements or risk losing our only colony without even fighting for it. Zurai fucked around with this message at 22:48 on Dec 23, 2017 |
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Dec 23, 2017 22:46
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Again, the plan is not to go to war. The plan is not to cause a civil war on Earth. The plan is not to unilaterally take over the solar system. The plan is to drop the infodump, and then get everyone sat down at the same table and figure out just how the gently caress we're gonna present a united front. I feel that the plan has really suffered from the last bit talking about a potential war that might happen based off how the conference goes and the revelations shake out, but that's way ahead of itself. If Saros lets us, I would even encourage Jack to strike it from the plan entirely. But that's not the point of the plan.
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Dec 23, 2017 22:54
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changing my vote to 1) Make Mars Whole Initiative 2) Dominion of Sol
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Dec 23, 2017 22:57
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Plan Crab is essentially Plan Status Quo, It essentially is saying "Hope the Terran's help fight the crabs, if they don't play ball we fight the crabs anyway. Also by the way we are totally planning on conquering you too, but we really have no timeline on that please don't try to stop this".
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Dec 23, 2017 23:05
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Crazycryodude posted:Again, the plan is not to go to war. The plan is not to cause a civil war on Earth. The plan is not to unilaterally take over the solar system. The plan is to drop the infodump, and then get everyone sat down at the same table and figure out just how the gently caress we're gonna present a united front. I feel that the plan has really suffered from the last bit talking about a potential war that might happen based off how the conference goes and the revelations shake out, but that's way ahead of itself. If Saros lets us, I would even encourage Jack to strike it from the plan entirely. But that's not the point of the plan. If you think that a) Dominion of Sol isn't trying to trigger the collapse/crippling and attempted absorption of UT, and b) won't result in some violent aftereffects directed at the presumptive cause, you're being super naive. In addition, I would add that not factoring in the very real threat of a significant portion of Terra's fleet being directed at us as retaliation for what is effectively Information Warfare is a good way to get completely wrong-footed, and likely to totally Al-Andalus us. The very real existential risk of this plan (even if we allow for your suggestion that it's only potential) makes it a complete nonstarter. pinchofginger fucked around with this message at 23:11 on Dec 23, 2017 |
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Dec 23, 2017 23:08
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In my plan I did make an edit, 2f. Unification War stuff, I took it out because I felt it distracted from my intention of the plan, its goal isn't a great war with Terra/etc. its goal was to get all the factions to the table to discuss what all these revelations will mean to humanity moving forward. I edited the original plan before voting started, because I wanted to break down some vague goals of the Part 2. The Unification War thing wasn't a goal more of a potential worst case scenario if the plan blew up and nations started shooting at us first. Sorry for the confusion.
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Dec 23, 2017 23:16
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That is a good change and makes me less upset about Dominion's current lead. I still think it's way too big of a gamble, but at least it's not explicitly calling for war with UT now.
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Dec 23, 2017 23:22
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1. Dominion of Sol (work with Terra to buy out IC included in this. 2. Fleet Programme Supplement Alpha
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Dec 23, 2017 23:27
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By my rough count (subtracting the secondary votes for those few voting both Crabs and Dominion, also subtracted two double/edited votes for Crabs/Bivalve/Seti), the vote is now at: Crabs First/Bivalve/Seti - 23 Dominion of Sol - 22 RA Rx fucked around with this message at 00:45 on Dec 24, 2017 |
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Dec 24, 2017 00:32
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1. Dominion of Sol 2. Fleet Programme Supplement Alpha I've wanted a microwave swarm strategy since forever, but I really want to get the brainworm illuminati out in the open and I feel shaking the power structure and letting everyone know the stakes works toward that.
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Dec 24, 2017 00:39
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I'm still firmly against Dominion, because i don't see a realistic possibility of any government that might pop up on Terra actually agreeing to terms that we would like. As the situation currently stands, we have three major political factions on Terra: 1)Putina/supposedly Reformists: Ultimate attitude towards Mars is unclear beyond being more moderate than her father. Possibility of supporting this Dominion thing, but reportedly on very shaky political ground, and i think it likely that Full Frontal would topple Putina, given just how much of her rep is tied up in extrasolar related things. 2)Authoritarians/Hardliners/Putinistas: Very Much still have a Breakaway Colony view of Mars. If in power, would likely regard any DoS proposal as an opportunity to recite the old UT doctrines about us, make offers to blantantly annex us/take control of our fleet/other unacceptable things. Unfortunately the UT Naval Command is apparently stuffed full of these guys and we've yet to see any signs of factionalism in the fleet, so i consider it quite likely that Op. Full Frontal would lead to them seizing power in any chaos that breaks out. 3)Earth Firsters: Very much want to pour resources into Earth rather than Fleet Buildups/Extrasolar Things. Attitude towards Mars/Smaller UT Holdings very much a question mark. Probably uninterested in taking orders/suggestions from anyone besides themselves, certainly not a formal union. Even if they agree to this DoS thing, unlikely to devote large amounts of resources towards shipbuilding as opposed to domestic programs. My question is, why do we think that Operation Full Frontal has a good chance of resulting in a UT govt. that'll agree to a DoS? The faction most likely to agree to work together on extrasolar things is also the one currently in power and likely to be toppled. The faction most likely to seize power in the event of a toppling is also the one that has an explictly unfriendly attitude towards us and will happily tell us to hand over our weapons and get back in line. The EF folks don't seem likely to be good partners in anything, although they'll probably not move to block us hard either. And thats not even getting into potential wild cards coming out of nowhere, the reactions of the rest of the system, or our domestic politics.
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Dec 24, 2017 00:46
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Yeah, there's no way the soft wing of Putina's supports is strengthened by this, so either it'll be her hard liners or populist Earth Firsters - especially with that freighter just getting nuked. They'll argue Nova Sol can't be held and it's Mars' job to hold the Pit because of the dead immigrants. What's with the arguments that 'We're just going to infowar them with the idea that their government will collapse in the chaos - but it's only a potential possibility!' it's the goal of the whole plan. And if it doesn't collapse they're going to dislike us a lot more. As for taking out the UT earlier, MAD has been in the way. We could finally work on it, but there are genocidal crabs that absolutely take first priority. If we have a second round I'm pretty sure Crabs First/Bivalve/Seti wins, but the late votes are so far going its way (+/- voters are often early voters). RA Rx fucked around with this message at 03:55 on Dec 24, 2017 |
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Dec 24, 2017 00:58
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Also I'm more interested in a Mars LP than a unified Sol system LP, and part of the charm is there still being in-system politics to deal with as well as aliens. Even if the Dominion of Sol plan worked it'd kill my interest pretty dead. 
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Dec 24, 2017 01:03
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Crabs First ---- Operation Terran Freedom sounds way too risky for me.
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Dec 24, 2017 01:05
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Mukaikubo posted:Also I'm more interested in a Mars LP than a unified Sol system LP, and part of the charm is there still being in-system politics to deal with as well as aliens. Even if the Dominion of Sol plan worked it'd kill my interest pretty dead. This is also a consideration for me, I'll admit. I think Saros could still give us interesting internal politics to deal with but I like the Divided Sol conceit.
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Dec 24, 2017 01:20
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Again, the Dominion Plan is risky... However throughout the LP we have gone big or gone home. By all rights we shouldn't have held Triton, Seized Facility, Liberated Titan, Survived the PIT, etc. it all worked because we went balls to the wall and scraped by with the skin of our teeth. We we're one fighter away from losing Titan, A lucky shot in the PIT etc. from being completely wiped out. In 4x Games, the guy with more resources can snowball pretty hard, we all have played these kinds of games before (otherwise wtf are we doing in an Aurora LP). Terran's came with the bigger industry, fleet, population etc. Mars has been playing catch-up all game, and we have done so by making audacious moves. Right now we have a vague sort of parity with Terra, which is mitigated by MAD. My personal philosophy is that if we continue with the logical course of dealing with the Crabs, we will spend the bulk of our forces doing so, while yes Crab-Tech etc. might get us better ships. However most of these plans involve splitting the spoils with the Terran's. I just don't see us maintaining the status quo in the Sol System while rushing off to deal with the crabs will put us in a position to deal with Terra later. So far we have had success by taking the unprecedented option in the LP rather than the safe sensible proposals moving forward. Jack2142 fucked around with this message at 02:37 on Dec 24, 2017 |
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Dec 24, 2017 01:58
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Divided Sol is an impediment when there are far greater threats and rewards in the stars, especially so long as both we and Terra maintain the capability to end our mutual existence at a moment's notice. I'm relatively agnostic on how it happens, but it's gotta happen.
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Dec 24, 2017 02:03
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Also double posting to bring up I think the main dichotomy of the two main plans... 1. Dominion of Sol: "We need to deal with the human factions first in order to be strong enough to defeat the crabs". 2. Crabs First: "We need to deal with the crabs first in order to be strong enough to defeat the human factions".
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Dec 24, 2017 02:04
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1. Plan Crabs First - UT later 2. Project Eden
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Dec 24, 2017 02:07
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The name "Dominion of Sol" just doesn't do it for me. How about changing to "Martian Hegemony"? Also, may I ask someone to make a fleet patch The First Martian Dreadnought division. I played with an online graphic editor for an hour, and made something to made me want to vomit into the vacuum. Nitis fucked around with this message at 02:55 on Dec 24, 2017 |
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Dec 24, 2017 02:53
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sniper4625 posted:Divided Sol is an impediment when there are far greater threats and rewards in the stars, especially so long as both we and Terra maintain the capability to end our mutual existence at a moment's notice. Sure- but can we just end the thread there with a link to one of the fifty human MOO2 LPs and start something else that has an interesting premise, then? 
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Dec 24, 2017 03:09
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Mukaikubo posted:Sure- but can we just end the thread there with a link to one of the fifty human MOO2 LPs and start something else that has an interesting premise, then? Personal Statement: The Dominion plan is maybe a bad name, I haven't really called for Diplo-annexing everything, I just thought the name sounded better than Human Federation etc. The goal would be to establish more of a Confederation of Mars friendly governments like the Titanians. There would still be room for internal squabbling between groups/states, with as Nitis says a Martian Hegemony. Edit: Plus I trust Saros to keep things interesting and throw curveballs like he has well... pretty much the entire LP. Jack2142 fucked around with this message at 03:35 on Dec 24, 2017 |
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Dec 24, 2017 03:17
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Let's be honest, Titan is not a free state in practice. They're a puppet government. They were explicitly set up as puppets when we freed them. Yes, they are technically not subjects of Mars, but they're Martian assets in all but name. Turning the rest of Sol into Martian puppets instead of outright annexing them doesn't really change that we're just painting the map red at that point.
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Dec 24, 2017 03:23
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Othin posted:Crabs First My vote
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Dec 24, 2017 03:37
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FWIW I changed my secondary vote from Project Eden to Space Fortress Phobos II.
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Dec 24, 2017 03:47
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On the basis that we are not trying to dump Putina in it and kill her government (ie. we talk to UT before we release the real situation) I'm voting 1. Dominion of Sol because Mars backs itself to make the big plays. also 2. Death Star bc come the hell on it's a death star
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Dec 24, 2017 05:04
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1. Plan Crabs First - UT later/OPERATION BIVALVE/Bury the Hatchet/SETI/Humanity First 2. Fleet Programme Supplement Alpha Both Dominion of Sol and Crabs first require us to release a lot of information to the public, to show the Sol system that the galaxy is a pretty hostile place with ruthless genocides of whole races happening just a few hundred thousand years ago two systems over. The aim is different though, Crabs first aims (and i really find it strange to write this) to stabilize the current terran gouvernment, cause as Nick Esasky wrote, of the three factions that could lead Earth, it is the one that is most able to support the anti Crab effort. Dominion of Sol seems to aim for a takeover by the Earth firsters, and their demand (supported by the Mars firsters) would be to abandon any extra solar colonies, concentrate purely on the fortification of the JPs inside Sol, basically hide and hope the bad Xenos (and worse old ones) overlook us. It is too late for that, we desperately need to find out the size and extent of the Crabs power, and we can only gain that by either interrogations of our prisoners or pushing into their territory.
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Dec 24, 2017 05:44
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plan death moon then dominion of sol -e- that’s preference order, not temporal order.
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Dec 24, 2017 05:44
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In response to what faction do I see leading Earth in the aftermath of the infodump: none of them. A new faction made up of the majority of people who just go "poo poo I don't want to get my brain sucked out by cosmic horrors, we should go to that conference" either directly take over in Mars, the IC, the UT, and TFS or put enough pressure on their governments to make them show up.
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Dec 24, 2017 05:58
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sebmojo posted:On the basis that we are not trying to dump Putina in it and kill her government (ie. we talk to UT before we release the real situation) I'm pretty sure we're not talking to the UT first about our plans if Dominion wins. Current count is 28 Crabs, 26 Dominion.
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Dec 24, 2017 07:36
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Crabs First Then Forges of Mars
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Dec 24, 2017 07:45
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I'm usually a careful turtleing type of a player, but something about the transparency appeals to me. 1. Dominion of Sol Other than that, being able to not die when/if a dome collapses sounds pretty good. 2. Project Eden/Forges of Mars Loezi fucked around with this message at 08:01 on Dec 24, 2017 |
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Dec 24, 2017 07:59
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1. Plan Crabs First - UT later 2. Project Eden
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Dec 24, 2017 08:55
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Zurai posted:Let's be honest, Titan is not a free state in practice. They're a puppet government. They were explicitly set up as puppets when we freed them. Yes, they are technically not subjects of Mars, but they're Martian assets in all but name. Turning the rest of Sol into Martian puppets instead of outright annexing them doesn't really change that we're just painting the map red at that point. They are not puppets we freed their workers and are our best bids because we took a gamble to not negotiate for that IC guy. Then we would be sitting here now with all of the Crabs first people complaining how we can't take on the IC and UT all at once: they are too powerful, we need more time blah blah blah. By delaying any further we will never see any good chance of unification on at least equal terms with the UT. They will have the numbers, the tech advantage and a stable government.
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Dec 24, 2017 09:36
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I don't really get the way the vote works. Loads of people are voting for crabs and SETI and whatever but those are different plans. But they're the same vote. Or do I have to switch from SETI to crabs in order to compete with dominion? (SETI and crabs are two wholly different plans)
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Dec 24, 2017 09:38
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I think Saros grouped them together, so they count together?
RA Rx fucked around with this message at 15:40 on Dec 24, 2017 |
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Dec 24, 2017 10:32
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HiHo ChiRho posted:They are not puppets we freed their workers and are our best bids because we took a gamble to not negotiate for that IC guy. Affi posted:I don't really get the way the vote works.
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Dec 24, 2017 10:32
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HiHo ChiRho posted:By delaying any further we will never see any good chance of unification on at least equal terms with the UT. They will have the numbers, the tech advantage and a stable government. One, we have no chance of a unification with UT as things stand unless we just bend the knee outright. Two, how do you figure that they'll have the tech advantage? Three, how do you figure that Crabs First will leave them with a rock-steady government? Crazycryodude posted:In response to what faction do I see leading Earth in the aftermath of the infodump: none of them. A new faction made up of the majority of people who just go "poo poo I don't want to get my brain sucked out by cosmic horrors, we should go to that conference" either directly take over in Mars, the IC, the UT, and TFS or put enough pressure on their governments to make them show up. This is beyond a pipe dream. UT isn't going to suddenly be ruled by the proletariat just because we play some scary videos -- and even if that happened, there's a zero percent chance that they become our instant best buddies.
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Dec 24, 2017 10:58
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Dominion of Sol Phobos II That infodump is too juicy to resist.
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Dec 24, 2017 11:03
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