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I think he was gonna turn all of humanity into something like Servants? I dunno, I wasn't clear on it.
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Dec 26, 2017 00:41
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Well, I guess servants are a kind of energy being?
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Dec 26, 2017 02:16
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Magically uplifting humanity into invincible psychic angels or whatever seems like a rude thing to do without people's permission, but it's probably better than letting millions of people die horribly. What was Joan's point again? (And where does she get her "rules" about what servants should do from? This ritual was invented by a bunch of crazy evil wizards, why does she care what they wanted to happen?)
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Dec 26, 2017 04:03
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Dzhay posted:Magically uplifting humanity into invincible psychic angels or whatever seems like a rude thing to do without people's permission, but it's probably better than letting millions of people die horribly. The Ruler class isn't supposed to be normally summonable (that didn't stop the Einzberns from summoning their own Ruler in the Third War) and they're basically supposed to make sure the war goes on "properly". What Amakusa Shiro is doing is clearly against norms. As for why mages care about what happens, magic is secret and they want to keep it that way. One of the reasons magic is explicitly weaker in the modern era because there's less mystery so keeping it a secret is important. The entire reason the Fuyuki War had a church official act as an impartial mediator (we've seen how that failed in F/Z and F/SN) was because the mages in the Second War were not very subtle and caused a lot of trouble. Jeanne's role is basically being that impartial mediator but enforced by the system than a gentleman's agreement with the Church. And Jeanne doesn't think servants should really have a say in human history. It'd obviously be interesting if, say, Alexander the Great came back and wanted to finish his conquests. From Jeanne's perspective, it's basically a dead guy coming back to dictate the future to the living and that's wrong.
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Dec 26, 2017 04:37
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The final battle being between two people who never spoke until now is 101 bad writing, especially when they don't have any philosophical edge other than "You hurt my girlfriend, thankfully I have like 3 servants worth of mojo to fight you!" It's like if Gilgamesh just appeared in the final episode of F/SN and declared himself the final boss with no build-up whatosever.
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Dec 26, 2017 04:42
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Tae posted:It's like if Gilgamesh just appeared in the final episode of F/SN and declared himself the final boss with no build-up whatosever. So....UBW? Yeah, I know.
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Dec 26, 2017 05:02
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AlternateNu posted:So....UBW? Yeah, I know. no die
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Dec 26, 2017 05:19
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For all its flws this show has pretty gud fites and I'm glad it happened.
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Dec 26, 2017 08:13
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Dzhay posted:What was Joan's point again? I think one of her things is that salvation needs to be earned rather than given. Which only makes sense if you actually did something that needs forgiving and/or if you have Christian beliefs, outside of that her stance pretty much screws you over. But at least there's a character reason for it, and I thought her interaction with Gilles was pretty well done and moving within the confines of that internal logic. As for Seig, I have no clue what he was on about, I think he's just That Guy who barges into the middle of a reasonable debate, ignores all the points being made, and starts yelling about what his feelings are. A.K.A. the editor said that we can't have little kids developing radical ideas, please have the protagonist parrot the status quo accompanied by heroic music so they know which side to root for. The funny part to me is, usually when this trope gets pulled out, the cynical anti-hero salvation guy has some critical flaw in his plan, like everybody will lose their ability to love or something stupid like that. I was waiting for that bomb to drop the entire time. But Shirou then pretty much goes out of his way to explain that this will actually be pretty great all around, making the protagonists' reactions seem extra dumb. I hope this was intentional.
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Dec 26, 2017 08:39
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Xy Hapu posted:I think one of her things is that salvation needs to be earned rather than given. Which only makes sense if you actually did something that needs forgiving and/or if you have Christian beliefs, outside of that her stance pretty much screws you over. But at least there's a character reason for it, and I thought her interaction with Gilles was pretty well done and moving within the confines of that internal logic. Fate is usually above that kind of sophomoric backdoor out of its philosophical questions, so I have no doubt Amakusa's plan having no discernible downside is entirely intentional. The onus then falls on the protagonists to justify why they are opposing it despite it having no or minimal negatives. Heaven's Feel and Unlimited Bladeworks' central conflicts both were built on that friction, with Shirou having to find reasons to stick to his path (or change his path) despite the other choice being easier and probably smarter. If Seig and Jeanne fail to do that, it's a failure of the writer given how many times its been done successfully in this franchise. Fate's very core is the clash of philosophies, and if one side of the fight doesn't measure up, especially the protagonist's side, it's not fulfilling that core.
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Dec 26, 2017 09:25
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Xy Hapu posted:The funny part to me is, usually when this trope gets pulled out, the cynical anti-hero salvation guy has some critical flaw in his plan, like everybody will lose their ability to love or something stupid like that. I was waiting for that bomb to drop the entire time. But Shirou then pretty much goes out of his way to explain that this will actually be pretty great all around, making the protagonists' reactions seem extra dumb. I hope this was intentional. But you're not wrong since it's so much so they didn't even feel the need to go into the details lol. Sindai fucked around with this message at 17:55 on Dec 26, 2017 |
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Dec 26, 2017 17:50
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I feel like 'we will make a place where Humans never die' is easily counter-able, particularly in philosophical styling, by arguing 'you aren't really human if you can't die, because dying is part of being human', and that also seems to be a pretty standard Fate response to the idea of immortality, so if Sieg and Jeanne didn't even get to that point it's really disappointing.
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Dec 27, 2017 04:37
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Nevermind that you can't eliminate conflict between present-day humans. That humanity might eventually ascend into spiritual beings or whatever, and deciding to speed that up sounds all fine and dandy but it'd really gently caress up them up if you did it right now with present humanity.
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Dec 27, 2017 04:49
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Immortal Energy Trump
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Dec 27, 2017 05:05
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We're gonna build a pipeline directly to the Root, and make the mages pay for it!
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Dec 27, 2017 06:21
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The Magus Association isn't sending their best. They're sending Necromancers, sealers, and serial killers. And some of them, I assume, are good people.
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Dec 27, 2017 07:36
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Xy Hapu posted:I think one of her things is that salvation needs to be earned rather than given. Which only makes sense if you actually did something that needs forgiving and/or if you have Christian beliefs, outside of that her stance pretty much screws you over. The difference is who it's coming from, really - Ciel has a lot of tragedy in her past and is fairly cynical at her core, so it makes sense that she'd view humanity's inherent nature as evil, and good as something that has to be actively worked towards. Even if a person isn't Christian, they're still struggling with the flaws that come with being human. Jeanne has the tragedy, but she still seems to believe in the kindness of her fellow man, so her acting like everyone needs to work towards being forgiven doesn't work as well.
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Dec 27, 2017 07:42
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Wait wait, isn't people ascending into being energy-soul things basically the plot of the rapture?
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Dec 27, 2017 07:49
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Kylra posted:Wait wait, isn't people ascending into being energy-soul things basically the plot of the rapture? I always found funny how the rapture is something completely foreign to catholic tradition.
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Dec 27, 2017 08:03
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What I got from Shirou's speech is that the requirements of maintaining a physical body in a world of finite resources causes conflict and suffering, so separating us from that will make things much better. These ghost-people will still probably have dumb arguments and dislike one another and generally continue to be human, but no one's going to want, need, or even be able to go around clubbing other ghost-people in the head or control other ghost-people by leveraging against them their need for a finite resource that they can't exist without.Endorph posted:I think her thing is kind of the same argument Ciel makes in Tsukihime. Everybody's sinned, both in the 'original sin' sense and in the 'everybody's done at least one thing they shouldn't have' sense. It's by working to rectify those mistakes, or by striving to be a good person despite everything, that a person is forgiven. Yeah, that's why I find her argument pretty narrow-minded, it only makes sense if 'being forgiven by a higher power' is a real thing that has a definite outcome. Otherwise you're just kind of a dick that is denying a good thing to everybody because you think they don't feel bad enough about themselves to deserve it. It's a little hard to side with either Shirou or Jeanne because at the end of the day they are both imposing their own ideas on everyone else, but at least Shirou has a reasonable basis and argument for his position. Though I think it's entirely appropriate character-wise that Jeanne's faith is so unshakable that she doesn't even consider the possibility that "salvation must be earned" might not be how it works. Sieg is just a blubbering idiot.
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Dec 27, 2017 09:43
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Kylra posted:Wait wait, isn't people ascending into being energy-soul things basically the plot of the rapture? Not really. Christianity tends to be pretty pro fleshy meat bits. It's one of the big difference from Gnosticism. If having a body is good enough for Jesus, it should drat well be good enough for you.
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Dec 27, 2017 09:48
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I'm pretty sure you don't take your fleshy meat bits to heaven with you.
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Dec 27, 2017 09:52
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Xy Hapu posted:It's a little hard to side with either Shirou or Jeanne because at the end of the day they are both imposing their own ideas on everyone else, but at least Shirou has a reasonable basis and argument for his position. This is an interesting notion. Is Jeanne really imposing her ideals on everyone by PREVENTING Shirou from doing that? Is there no moral distinction in the lack of consideration for the wishes of humanity in general between inacting change and upholding the existing status quo?
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Dec 27, 2017 10:57
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Kylra posted:I'm pretty sure you don't take your fleshy meat bits to heaven with you. Generally, no. But Jesus did it. Catholic doctrine says Mary did as well. (although there was debate if her body got dragged away before or after it was done with standard use.) For Old Testament stuff, there was Enoch and Elijah. But again, those are special case bits. General case is, in most versions of mainstream doctrine I've seen, that the holy dead get new bodies without the constantly breaking down and such that define the standard model on Earth.
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Dec 27, 2017 11:22
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hope that blank canvas piece of poo poo actually dies this time also if shirou's wish is so good why does he start so many fights over it, surely he could just sit down with jeanne and talk it out instead of constantly sending people to assassinate her
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Dec 27, 2017 12:29
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Nothing about Shiro's plan has anything to do with Catholic doctrine, if anything it has everything to do with the Human Instrumentality Project from End of Evangelion and Fate/Apo ripped off that plotline like many other anime before.
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Dec 27, 2017 13:35
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Sanguinia posted:This is an interesting notion. Is Jeanne really imposing her ideals on everyone by PREVENTING Shirou from doing that? Is there no moral distinction in the lack of consideration for the wishes of humanity in general between inacting change and upholding the existing status quo? I don't think it really matters who started slinging poo first, that's a matter between the poo-slinging parties, and doesn't change the reason why they are slinging poo and the morality of the outcome of all the poo-slinging. I have no idea why that came out so poo-centric, but at any rate, I don't think it's possible for there to be any inherent morality in the maintenance of a status quo, especially on a humanity-wide scale where there are vast differences in what the status quo actually entails. In an effort to put it in less fecal terms, I'd say that it's like anti-vaxxers; yeah, one side is maybe an rear end in a top hat for 'starting it' by demanding they stick needles in your kid, but you're also a dumbass for imposing your ideals on your kid and preventing what, as far as any reasonable person can tell, is a good thing for everyone. But the end of the day the particular sequence of the assholery or dumbassery is immaterial when trying to determine whether the vaccine is good for the kid or not.
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Dec 27, 2017 14:23
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Xy Hapu posted:In an effort to put it in less fecal terms, I'd say that it's like anti-vaxxers; yeah, one side is maybe an rear end in a top hat for 'starting it' by demanding they stick needles in your kid, but you're also a dumbass for imposing your ideals on your kid and preventing what, as far as any reasonable person can tell, is a good thing for everyone. But the end of the day the particular sequence of the assholery or dumbassery is immaterial when trying to determine whether the vaccine is good for the kid or not. But the "vaccine," in this metaphor, Shirou's plan, is being imposed through authoritarian means by a single individual. I don't think the metaphor holds because vaccines and the laws pertaining to them were arrived at by a consensus. The collective will of society through a variety of methods decided vaccines were good and put in place systems to ensure they were used en masse, not just those who were championing them at their inception. I can see the other end of the metaphor. Jeanne is the anti-vaxxer, preventing her kid from getting something that is good for him, and the child in this case is "humanity," which cannot make an informed decision on this issue. Just like a child, particularly an infant, can't know enough about science to decide on vaccines, humanity can't know enough about magic to decide on Shirou's plan, thus it falls to their caretaker (Jeanne) to make the decision for them in what should ostensibly be their best interest. But Jeanne is arguably not doing that, falling back on her personal beliefs rather than any kind of objective measurement of benefits to those in her charge. Still, we're forced to come back to this issue of authoritarian imposition of the "benefit," by the will of a single individual. Vaccines are not used because the doctors who invented them started running around injecting people, they're used because they were presented as an option and won the argument. The Social Contract went into effect and governments made laws based on the collective will of the populace, and those who were on the losing side of those things because they didn't want vaccines were forced to ascent because of their willingness to bow to that authority as members of their civilization, just as the other side would have if they had won the debate. In the absence of any source of authority to enact his will on innocent 3rd parties outside his own Might, Shirou is clearly acting immorally, but is Jeanne really equally culpable to him in this scenario for using her might to resist the change being forced on those 3rd parties? Is opposing change really equal to enforcing change under these circumstances? I find that a little hard to swallow.
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Dec 27, 2017 22:40
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Shirou is a bad guy
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Dec 27, 2017 22:56
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My plan for everyone is vague as all hell but trust me it's good and I have good intentions despite my methods.
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Dec 27, 2017 23:02
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That's more thought into Shirou's position than this show deserves
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Dec 27, 2017 23:06
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Sanguinia posted:But the "vaccine," in this metaphor, Shirou's plan, is being imposed through authoritarian means by a single individual. I don't think the metaphor holds because vaccines and the laws pertaining to them were arrived at by a consensus. The collective will of society through a variety of methods decided vaccines were good and put in place systems to ensure they were used en masse, not just those who were championing them at their inception. This reads exactly like that Donald Duck comic panel where he explains why Sora, Donald, and Goofy try not to interfere in Disney worlds. God I love this crazy fandom.
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Dec 28, 2017 02:06
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Gologle posted:This reads exactly like that Donald Duck comic panel where he explains why Sora, Donald, and Goofy try not to interfere in Disney worlds. God I love this crazy fandom. Fate: If you're not here for waifus, you better be here for philosophical pondering! 
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Dec 28, 2017 03:11
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Sanguinia posted:In the absence of any source of authority to enact his will on innocent 3rd parties outside his own Might, Shirou is clearly acting immorally, but is Jeanne really equally culpable to him in this scenario for using her might to resist the change being forced on those 3rd parties? Is opposing change really equal to enforcing change under these circumstances? I find that a little hard to swallow. My point is that Jeanne isn't saying, "bitch you can't make this decision for everyone else, fight me", she's saying "no, your version of salvation is poo poo, my version (currently in progress) is the right one, fight me". She's operating under the same authoritarian logic as Shirou, the only reason she's not actively changing the status quo herself is because it's already the way she thinks it should be. Throw her into a pool of LCL and you bet your rear end she'll raise a Tang-army in the name of god to turn everyone back into meatbags.
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Dec 28, 2017 08:33
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My question was more about before she found out about the Red Team's zany plans. The other heroes are fighting for a genie wish, what's the restless ghost of Joan of Arc's motivation for enforcing the rules of this wizard fight?
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Dec 28, 2017 11:25
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Dzhay posted:My question was more about before she found out about the Red Team's zany plans. The other heroes are fighting for a genie wish, what's the restless ghost of Joan of Arc's motivation for enforcing the rules of this wizard fight? I think it’s important to remember that Jeanne repeatedly says she doesn’t consider herself a saint, and it’s obvious what she does consider herself - a soldier, working within an unfair, sometimes cruel system because she still believes sufficient good can come out of it. Her role as Ruler is no different to her role as a French commander, and if she’s happy with one, why shouldn’t she be happy with the other?
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Dec 28, 2017 12:15
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So I watched UBW while I wait for the second season of this to come out on Netflix. My friends laughed at me when I screamed down Discord, "Oh poo poo it's Servant Emiya from Saltybet."
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Dec 28, 2017 16:40
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Natural 20 posted:So I watched UBW while I wait for the second season of this to come out on Netflix. You never watched UBW before?
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Dec 28, 2017 18:33
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So I might have missed them going over this earlier in the series, but shouldn't Jeanne be having a crisis of faith this whole time? She's come back to life in a way that kind of invalidates her religious beliefs right? She doesn't talk about being in heaven hanging with Jesus until some mages asked her to play referee for them. So it's like the Christian afterlife thats part of the basis of her faith is disproven? She's still talking all religiously like nothing happened though. I guess the same goes for most servants based on religious people.
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Dec 28, 2017 20:06
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Conspiratiorist posted:You never watched UBW before? I've never watched any of this before. I only realised it existed because of Netflix. That's becoming a fairly common theme for the anime I watch actually.
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Dec 28, 2017 20:07
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