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Waldo is redeemed by actually coming true. How can you hate a dystopian Black Mirror episode that came true?
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Jan 2, 2018 00:05
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Hated in the Nation was extremely well made and had great actors (esp. Kate From Trainspotting). it is by no stretch "bad"
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Jan 2, 2018 00:06
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I just looked it up and apparently Waldo was originally an idea for Nathan Barley which makes a lot of sense.
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Jan 2, 2018 00:07
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unlawfulsoup posted:A running theme in Black Mirror is that people, even the awful ones don't always deserve the tortures/fate they endure. It has sort of morphed from 'hazards of tech' to being more abstract at times now. Like even if you hate pedophiles, greedy corporate types, etc. cheering on their deaths is sort of lovely irregardless. It was one of the main things that Hated in the Nation was hamfistedly making a statement on. That's why Black Museum was doing the big poke you in the face move with people being participating in the last exhibit too. Same with White Christmas, in a way. It made you sympathize with those being tortured for heinous crimes, then when it happened to Jon Hamm the director was basically yelling the message at us.
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Jan 2, 2018 00:17
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Doltos posted:That's why Black Museum was doing the big poke you in the face move with people being participating in the last exhibit too. Same with White Christmas, in a way. It made you sympathize with those being tortured for heinous crimes, then when it happened to Jon Hamm the director was basically yelling the message at us. Black Museum also had the protagonist torture/murder the museum owner for torturing a virtual representation of her father. I guess most people cheer for that, but what can I say.
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Jan 2, 2018 00:18
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khwarezm posted:It's not 'morally confusing' it's a basic bait-and-switch since the episode initially leads you to believe that Daly is a put upon nerd bullied by his mean co-workers whose worst crime is indulging is some videogame power fantasy. You're obviously meant to sympathize with him and maybe think 'man, he really should get back at those guys somehow' until you start to realize that his getting back at those guys means horrifyingly out of proportion punishments that he inflicts on sentient beings under the guise of Shatnerien digital Satan. At that point the POV of the episode switches to a character who hasn't really done much wrong and the characters that you could previously categorize into boxes like 'Office Bitch' or 'Backstabbing CEO' turn out to be more fully rounded people who transcend the silly high school stereotypes into actual human beings who should never be placed in such a ghastly situation. What I don’t like about it further is the real world implications aren’t really explored. The real Cole or whatever her name was is gonna be hella hosed up and might even be considered responsible for the death of Fatt Damon. She basically got hosed over by the avatars into doing something against her will. She had no beef with the guy, she respected his work. It was just a sloppy episode. Finished the 6th episode. It was one of the better ones of the season, but the ending was weird (again). Like, ok. The bad guy was bad and deserved his fate, but the daughter really sunk to his level by torturing him endlessly in that souvenir (assuming the souvenir still has consciousness, which I think they stated). So, congrats I guess. Instead of being the better person and just killing him, you sunk to his level and tortured him too. That episode definitely invoked the most emotion out of me (for multiple reasons), moreso than maybe any episode outside of Be Right Back, but the ending left a bad taste in my mouth. The story had issues though. The museum owner went from being semi-well meaning in the first two segments to a complete monster in the third with no real transition. That change was jarring. One of the problems with a few episodes of Black Mirror is that the evil bad technology sometimes is completely impractical and/or really designed for plot convenience. For instance, the doctor being able to feel pain...like, is there really any practical necessity for that? Yeah, there will be any instances where medical professionals can’t identify the problem for the patient, but would feeling said pain really do anything but possibly incapacitate or cloud the doctor’s judgment? When would feeling a type of pain give said professional a better understanding of the issue? Then the teddy bear thing...like who would ever think that’s a good idea outside of someone suffering intense grief who clearly isn’t thinking with logic? The ending of that segment was blantantly obvious. This issue comes up in a few other episodes, in particular Nosedive. Someone has a bad day and loses some points and it’s basically all down hill from there. You have to either be a smiling automaton or you’ll be out on the street. Millions of people would experience what the protagonist did. The problems with the tech can be hand waved away with ‘well it’s sci-fi and doesn’t matter’; but when the show is using the tech as a main vessel to tell the story, it does hurt it.
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Jan 2, 2018 01:01
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I really find it hard to sympathise with people trying to make the digital slave owning torture prison runner seem like a victim in totally the same circumstances as the innocent black man enslaved and tortured by him. And I know 'violence against nazi's makes you a nazi' is a popular thing nowadays, but people acting like she is literally the same as him lose me a little. She put the man who repeatedly murdered and tortured a black dude, into the machine he himself designed for use on other people, and then destroyed it. The more I think about it the more I'm kind of on her side, especially considering the whole reason she had to go there was because everyone else decided 'oh well nothing can be done without us being as bad as them'. It might be a passing mood but I feel like I'm kind of on her side, gently caress that guy. Say what you will about murder, but at the end of the day I think what she did was an improvement on what things were like when she arrived.
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Jan 2, 2018 01:27
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facebook jihad posted:One of the problems with a few episodes of Black Mirror is that the evil bad technology sometimes is completely impractical and/or really designed for plot convenience. For instance, the doctor being able to feel pain...like, is there really any practical necessity for that? Yeah, there will be any instances where medical professionals can’t identify the problem for the patient, but would feeling said pain really do anything but possibly incapacitate or cloud the doctor’s judgment? When would feeling a type of pain give said professional a better understanding of the issue? That one was explained pretty well in the episode I thought. It's not just that he can feel their pain, it's that he has past experience of pain and their associated symptoms and can catch things that a patient without his experience wouldn't even think to mention because of it. The usefulness of "Oh I've felt this one before, this is.." would be pretty great. It's not like he then treats them while in pain, he's used as a consultant. Fans fucked around with this message at 01:31 on Jan 2, 2018 |
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Jan 2, 2018 01:29
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cosmically_cosmic posted:I really find it hard to sympathise with people trying to make the digital slave owning torture prison runner seem like a victim in totally the same circumstances as the innocent black man enslaved and tortured by him. I’m not defending the guy at all, outside of the actor being really good. He sucked and gently caress him (though it seemed to indicate he was not comfortable with his new clientele after the museum stopped being popular). And he needed to die. The decision to torture him puts her in a weird level of morality though. If you’re going to bring up Nazis, it would be as if the Allies or Israel or whoever you want decided the best way to punish Germany would be to gas six million Germans who voted for the Nazis.
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Jan 2, 2018 01:35
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facebook jihad posted:What I don’t like about it further is the real world implications aren’t really explored. The real Cole or whatever her name was is gonna be hella hosed up and might even be considered responsible for the death of Fatt Damon. She basically got hosed over by the avatars into doing something against her will. She had no beef with the guy, she respected his work. It was just a sloppy episode. We have no idea if real Nanette will get any repercussions, there's no reason to assume Daly's death had anything to do with her since it would likely be entirely understood as him loving himself over by misusing the mod of the game that he built. The Avatars had almost no other options to release themselves from the system and real Nanette was the only link to the outside they knew they could exploit so I think I can let that slide. quote:This issue comes up in a few other episodes, in particular Nosedive. Someone has a bad day and loses some points and it’s basically all down hill from there. You have to either be a smiling automaton or you’ll be out on the street. Millions of people would experience what the protagonist did. Well, it doesn't matter, and it probably shouldn't. You can poke holes in almost all concepts in the most popular sci-fi ever made, it's impossible to bring back Dinosaurs using from blood found in amber, mostly because it's impossible for blood to preserve for that long, and it's further ridiculous they repaired their damaged DNA with frogs genetic code and then for the dinosaurs to spontaneously change sex as a result. Replicants are kind of a dumb idea thinking about them, they're advantages aren't very clear and they seem to be as prone to things like rebellion and violence as any real human. The corporation repeatedly cloning Sam Rockwell in Moon seems like a horrendously inefficient and dangerous way to avoid paying one guy's salary. Jeff Goldblum turning into a full-on fly monster after one gets into a teleporter with him (to say nothing of building a teleporter in his apartment) is a ridiculous leap considering the gigantic difference in mass between the two organisms. I won't even get into the litany of issues that pop up in almost every time-travel story ever from Looper to the Time Traveler's Wife. But in most short-form sci-fi like short stories, movies and, in this case, single TV episodes those kinds of plot holes don't really matter since it's not about building a completely watertight universe every time, it's about taking a few ideas that when giving a bit of examination aren't even close to realistic but can be used to explore various parts of the human condition.
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Jan 2, 2018 01:42
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cosmically_cosmic posted:I really find it hard to sympathise with people trying to make the digital slave owning torture prison runner seem like a victim in totally the same circumstances as the innocent black man enslaved and tortured by him. She didn't though. The criminal was executed by the state, Museum proprietor didn't kill him. What was being tortured was simulation of him. She killed him proprietor without any sort of a trial or procedure. That the crime, not consciousness transfer and the souvenir, though he didn't consent to that either.
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Jan 2, 2018 01:55
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Xenaul posted:That the crime, not consciousness transfer and the souvenir, though he didn't consent to that either. drat that’s a good point I didn’t consider. He at least got consent from the guy before doing it. khwarezm posted:We have no idea if real Nanette will get any repercussions, there's no reason to assume Daly's death had anything to do with her since it would likely be entirely understood as him loving himself over by misusing the mod of the game that he built. The Avatars had almost no other options to release themselves from the system and real Nanette was the only link to the outside they knew they could exploit so I think I can let that slide. Eh...it was pretty clear she was terrified and was held against her will to do the avatars’ bidding. In the greater context of the episode’s theme it’s a minor point, but I feel it hurt the episode. To be fair, I don’t think the avatars expected Fatt to die in real life. They just wanted to escape and probably die themselves. quote:Well, it doesn't matter, and it probably shouldn't. You can poke holes in almost all concepts in the most popular sci-fi ever made, it's impossible to bring back Dinosaurs using from blood found in amber, mostly because it's impossible for blood to preserve for that long, and it's further ridiculous they repaired their damaged DNA with frogs genetic code and then for the dinosaurs to spontaneously change sex as a result. Replicants are kind of a dumb idea thinking about them, they're advantages aren't very clear and they seem to be as prone to things like rebellion and violence as any real human. The corporation repeatedly cloning Sam Rockwell in Moon seems like a horrendously inefficient and dangerous way to avoid paying one guy's salary. Jeff Goldblum turning into a full-on fly monster after one gets into a teleporter with him (to say nothing of building a teleporter in his apartment) is a ridiculous leap considering the gigantic difference in mass between the two organisms. I won't even get into the litany of issues that pop up in almost every time-travel story ever from Looper to the Time Traveler's Wife. That’s a fair point, and these arguments are nit picky in a way that doesn’t affect my enjoyment of the show.
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Jan 2, 2018 02:12
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For a show about advanced technology they sure do like to use stalling cars as a plot point.
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Jan 2, 2018 02:16
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Shneak posted:For a show about advanced technology they sure do like to use stalling cars as a plot point. Yeah next time my car takes more than one try to start I am taking it in for a top-to-bottom checkup before I end up dead.
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Jan 2, 2018 02:20
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Shneak posted:For a show about advanced technology they sure do like to use stalling cars as a plot point. According to Charlie Brooker, stalling cars are how you throw in unexpected problems for characters when you have no budget to do anything more dramatic. He talked about this when he made this zombie show for channel 4 where that happens too.
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Jan 2, 2018 02:23
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Just finished the season, thought all the episodes were good except Crocodile which was slightly redeemed by the baby reveal and gerbil because it was hilarious . Also the worst episode is Nosedive.
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Jan 2, 2018 02:33
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The worst episode is Playtest for very specific personal reasons.
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Jan 2, 2018 02:37
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I tend to agree that this season of Black Mirror was the weakest one because for anthology shows, I'd rather have a terrible episode and an outstanding one instead of two okay-ish ones. But anyway, I wanna shout into the vacuum about what I thought of each episode so: Callister: This is probably the only "fun" episode in the entirety of Black Mirror. It feels like a high-concept sci-fi movie where the absolutely disturbing concept isn't ever taken seriously enough for you to digest just how dark it is. For a BM episode it's incredibly light, being more dark comedy than tragic, and you know what, that's fine. It makes for an enjoyable watch, if not a especially fulfilling one. Phillip Seymour Hoffman expy made for a hateable villain, it's interesting to see his sanitized hell develop and how he got pettier and pettier when adding new people to it. The MMO joke at the end was cheesy but then again the whole episode was a bit cheesy, so gently caress it. I had fun. Arkangel: I'm not sure how to feel about this one. It's probably veers the closest to traditional Black Mirror fare this season. It takes an already existing idea (child surveillance) and turns it up to 11, to expound on the dangers of that technology and how it affects people. Thing is, the moral seems way too shallow and the main plotline wasn't engaging enough for me to care about Arkangel. It didn't quite get off the rails hard enough to add any nuance to a helicopter parenting story - the mother succumbs to the temptation of checking on her daughter, the daughter lashes off (in a very exaggerated way), "if you love something, let it go", etc, etc. the one interesting aspect of the tech, the blurring, didn't get enough play in my opinion. I thought it would make an interesting point about sheltering your kids from bad experiences, but it gets turned off halfway into the episode and only gets play again at the very end...where it doesn't really add anything except for a cool visual. I'unno, it was more disappointing than bad. Crocodile: Oh my God this was so stupid. It's a classical farce leading up to a pile of bodies and an ending akin to a Black Mirror strawman. It's so grimdark and ironic, my God. Even the tech couldn't save it, it's just a better, visual-based polygraph. But really, can we focus on the murder of a BABY that ended up being BLIND because we had to depict how long her downfall was and how she's still ironically punished? It's bad. It's arguably worse than the stupid immigrants-as-zombies episode, that one at least had interesting things going on. Hang the DJ: I really liked this one, but I blinked and missed a thing that kinda soured my enjoyment of it. As an observation on the nature of relationships and today's dating apps with a cute romance story as its background, it was really good. The actors had great chemistry, their other relationships were interesting in their own right - and that woman is the worst creature in all of Black Mirror, holy poo poo - and it was heartbreaking to see Frank's one-sided decision to check the expiry run down the clock. So I was really into it, except I got distracted during the simulation reveal scene (which you could see coming from miles away) and I didn't notice the 1000 simulations were all THEIRS. I thought it was just a very successful algorithm, which is already a creepy thing to paint in a positive light for Black Mirror, but it literally generated copies of a pairing to see how well they got along. With at least half the episodes pushing the idea that cookies are real people too, thaaaat's kinda hosed up. However, it's supposed to be a happy ending, you don't even get the slightly off tone of San Junipero's last sequence. So I'd say great execution, landed off-balance, still on the top half of Black Mirror episodes. Metalhead: a solid short film about a slasher drone. Wait, this was Black Mirror? I quite liked the visual concept of the episode, the dogs were cool and creepy, and it was tense enough with some pretty good performances, but...it didn't say anything. It felt like a college project by some really talented film students. The last-second reveal of it all being for a teddy bear was bad, and the episode itself didn't hint towards any reason for the universe being the way it is. I didn't want an exposition scene where we learn the dogs are actually humans and the humans are the real dogs, but it was such a bare-bones post-apocalyptic setting that I couldn't give that much of a drat, as someone that likes Black Mirror for its high-concept ideas and how they'd impact human interactions. Good puppies though. Black Museum: This one felt too meta for its own good and too happy with a conclusion that doesn't match the tone of the series, in my opinion. A straight-up successful revenge ploy with an ironic punishment being painted as a happy ending bothers me a little on a series that is all about how terrible humans can be to each other. Sure, gently caress the Nazi-enabling, carny-rear end evil son of a bitch, but driving away happily with a token of his eternal despair on your rear-view mirror...hmm. As for the rest of the episode, I agree with people sayin' it feels like a commentary on Black Mirror itself sometimes, or at least on the shows it takes inspiration from. The creepy host telling semi-connected short stories about technology going wrong is too on-the-ball. The Penn Jilette short story was goofy in a way that really reminded me of those horror anthology shows, and Momkey also carried a bit of lightness to its frankly horrifying ending. The weakest sub-plot was the prisoner one, but it was there just so it could tie into the ending and show our friend as an unreliable narrator. One thing I quite disliked were the attempts to tie together a lot of Black Mirror's "tech" or episodes. You risk forming a canon of sorts that people get attached to, and I can't see a worse fate for an anthology than having to deal with the baggage from previous episodes. Huh, maybe that's Black Mirror's ironic punishment.
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Jan 2, 2018 02:37
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Is it weird that I really liked Frank's second date? Yeah, she's absolutely awful to Frank, but she doesn't strike me as a fundamentally antisocial person, just someone deeply incompatible with Frank. Assuming she's based on a real user of the app somewhere out there, I hope things turn out well for her!
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Jan 2, 2018 02:43
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21 Muns posted:Is it weird that I really liked Frank's second date? Yeah, she's absolutely awful to Frank, but she doesn't strike me as a fundamentally antisocial person, just someone deeply incompatible with Frank. Assuming she's based on a real user of the app somewhere out there, I hope things turn out well for her! Her first reaction, even before him saying a word, was disgust. She's the exact type of person that I try to avoid at all costs in real life and it would be my personal hell getting stuck with her for a date, nevermind a year. I might've just camped outside the house.
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Jan 2, 2018 02:50
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21 Muns posted:Is it weird that I really liked Frank's second date? Yeah, she's absolutely awful to Frank, but she doesn't strike me as a fundamentally antisocial person, just someone deeply incompatible with Frank. Assuming she's based on a real user of the app somewhere out there, I hope things turn out well for her! They intentionally made her character cold and included all the little bits that make people abrasive in a relationship so I guess that's weird ya
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Jan 2, 2018 02:52
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Black Museum definitely had a meta element to it, and it seems like a good final episode of the series entirely. I look at the call backs to other episodes as minor Easter eggs (see Wraith Girls or whatever on the porn menu in Crocodile) as supposed to some kind of fan theory interconnected world building. I think one of the problems with this season is that it was hard to find sympathy with any of the tragic characters. Episodes 1, 2, 3, and 6 has clear ‘bad guys’ that weren’t as apparent in early seasons. In The Entire History of You, you went back and forth between sympathizing with the guy and being repulsed by his behavior, same with the avatar and the lady in Be Right Back (though less with the repulsion in that one). The best episode I can come up with that had a ‘bad guy’ like these episodes did was Jon Hamm in the Christmas episode and maybe Doug Stamper in the military episode (though he was minor). These were a lot more black and white. This season seemed to retread a lot of ideas/themes already explored in early episodes, or gave those themes a twist (Hang the DJ was sort of a twist on San Janepeiro, Callister and much of Black Museum were retreads of the Christmas episode, ArkAngel was a retread of The Entire History of You). The exception was Metalhead, which was barely a Black Mirror episode and more of a short film sci-fi thriller. They’re really going to that ‘torturing/using avatars of consciousness’ well too much. I think they’re running out of ideas, which is a shame.
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Jan 2, 2018 02:54
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Yeah this season is definitely more Black and White, with Metalhead and all.
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Jan 2, 2018 02:56
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Really disappointing that the dogs in Metalhead don't look like this https://twitter.com/ikez0/status/947688420838481927
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Jan 2, 2018 03:08
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21 Muns posted:Is it weird that I really liked Frank's second date? Yeah, she's absolutely awful to Frank, but she doesn't strike me as a fundamentally antisocial person, just someone deeply incompatible with Frank. Assuming she's based on a real user of the app somewhere out there, I hope things turn out well for her! Are abrasive people a fetish for you?
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Jan 2, 2018 04:15
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Gaunab posted:Are abrasive people a fetish for you? I don't think so, but she certainly made being abrasive look good.
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Jan 2, 2018 04:19
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The man's loving name is Jesse Plemons.
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Jan 2, 2018 04:29
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In Hang the DJ, I wonder if they run 1000 simulations of every possible pairing among their customers, or do they use the some other approach to weed out obvious mismatches? It seems inefficient to do it the first way, but maybe you don't want to rule out someone prematurely?
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Jan 2, 2018 04:32
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I was hoping in Hang the DJ the relationships would develop and end organically instead of the weird forced longevity/exits they had. I think the episode could have gone in a better way if, say, those two long relationships started out poorly but eventually lead to something that kept both (or all four really) parties interested, with something happening that would have lead to a break up coinciding with the time of the expiry. It would have been interesting to explore concepts of knowing one’s fate. Instead you had this weird authoritarian thing kind of going on. It was kind of a mess. Also if the female didn’t like the other dudes and knew there was no future, why did she gently caress them? It was one of the better episodes this season still (ending blew though), but wasn’t a great Black Mirror episode.
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Jan 2, 2018 04:42
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HorseRenoir posted:Speaking of callbacks, seeing the postcard for San Junipero in Metalhead made me go Unrelated to anything, but the idea of postcards for SJ is kind of funny to me because going "Wish you were here!" for San Junipero is basically saying "I wish you were dead".
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Jan 2, 2018 04:59
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facebook jihad posted:Instead you had this weird authoritarian thing kind of going on. It was kind of a mess. Also if the female didn’t like the other dudes and knew there was no future, why did she gently caress them? I noticed in the time lapse sequence that one of her quick flings was another woman, I wonder if the guy got a gay interest check too.
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Jan 2, 2018 05:16
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facebook jihad posted:Also if the female didn’t like the other dudes and knew there was no future, why did she gently caress them? "There was a pole." (also "the female"?)
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Jan 2, 2018 05:19
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McSpanky posted:I noticed in the time lapse sequence that one of her quick flings was another woman, I wonder if the guy got a gay interest check too. Pretty sure he was only with that one lady for a year before meeting up with the first lady again and then dating a few more women.
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Jan 2, 2018 05:25
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black mirror season 5 is lit, y'all https://twitter.com/callummarkiee/status/948003797556658176
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Jan 2, 2018 05:50
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Cojawfee posted:Pretty sure he was only with that one lady for a year before meeting up with the first lady again and then dating a few more women. Yeah I just found it odd she had the weird montage of guys she slept with while the male had like...one more sexual encounter I think? The one where they were talking about their loves while they hosed.
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Jan 2, 2018 05:51
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facebook jihad posted:Yeah I just found it odd she had the weird montage of guys she slept with while the male had like...one more sexual encounter I think? The one where they were talking about their loves while they hosed. dating app algorithms determined her to be more horney than the male character
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Jan 2, 2018 06:05
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withak posted:In Hang the DJ, I wonder if they run 1000 simulations of every possible pairing among their customers, or do they use the some other approach to weed out obvious mismatches? It seems inefficient to do it the first way, but maybe you don't want to rule out someone prematurely? I like this episode because I've been thinking about the technology in it. In the real world, it seems like it might be more of a tinder thing, in which you choose someone and it shows you how much of a match you are. (Alternatively it's still a dating service that selects your "perfect match" for you based on the simulations it runs.) Regardless it makes sense that they'd test the simulations against previous data/other users, right? So if it's a tinder thing then maybe those 1000 cookie pairs could show up as like, 78% compatibility and in the real world you'd need to decide whether to go for it and see if you can work out some compromises or wait for a more "perfect" relationship. If it's a dating service that just tells you your perfect match then I guess you wouldn't even need to do that since it would have run all the simulations against everyone else. Which I guess is fine if it's real and not fine if it's feeding bullshit data like in a simulation. Better hope you're not a cookie.
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Jan 2, 2018 06:25
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cosmically_cosmic posted:I really find it hard to sympathise with people trying to make the digital slave owning torture prison runner seem like a victim in totally the same circumstances as the innocent black man enslaved and tortured by him. Yeah good job, this pretty much is exactly my point. If you are going to sacrifice your morals because they are a lovely person, at least have no illusions of having any moral high ground. You can use the same justifications to say that the White bear and Dance protagonists deserve their torture. Mob/Vigilante justice is really no justice at all. I am not going to defend the museum owner, him torturing the black guy is indefensible. BUT, that doesn't give someone license to torture and murder him back. This is ignoring the fact that in the Black Mirror universe torturing digital representations of people is common as hell and you will have a REALLY long list of people who are culpable for your vengeance fantasy if you wanted to take things to that logical conclusion. I also detest nazis but I am really wary of people who think that gives them some god given right to randomly attack them. Naturally in physical defense of someone else is understandable, but that isn't what we are usually talking about. Especially since there is a growing contingent of people who think anyone right of their interpretation is a nazi. edit: white bear not rabbit, wrong scifi unlawfulsoup fucked around with this message at 10:48 on Jan 2, 2018 |
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Jan 2, 2018 07:18
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On this threads recommendation, I watched the episode "White Bear" In all my years, I have never seen anything that good.
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Jan 2, 2018 09:18
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In what world do 10 year old boys still eat massive candy lollipops? Can a guinea pig's testimony really be accepted in a court of law?
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Jan 2, 2018 09:25
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