|
incidentally the two best lines of the season have to be "Stealing my pussy is a red loving line" and "Eventually, he dick-pukes a little baby paste up her wazoo"
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2018 21:27
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 25, 2024 07:08 |
|
|
HorseRenoir posted:To me, the issue isn't that the punishment was sadistic/disproportionate, it was the fact that the punishment was some sort of famous amusement park where people would line up for years to get cathartic revenge on an infamous killer. In reality, I think an actual White Bear crime would most likely be forgotten by the public after a week or so in the modern 24 hour news cycle. Well like, maybe things have changed these days (which would be quite unnerving thinking about it) but even in America things like the Columbine shooting or Tate murders seemed to leave a long lasting effect on the popular consciousness. Obviously White Bear is working in the context of British things like the Moors murders (I remember when I was young there was another notorious case where two girls were killed called the Soham murders and coverage of that event just went on and on) but I'm sure you could rejigger it to work in the context of America. I wonder if the tendency of most mass shooters in America to kill themselves in the act kneecaps public vilification of the perpetrators, since they can't really remain in the news in the way someone like Charles Manson or Anders Breivik can.
|
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2018 21:30
|
|
|
cosmically_cosmic posted:I think this is the crux of where I view the episode as different than something like White Bear. First of all I am simply saying any form of extra-legal justice whether it is a mob or vigilante is almost always wrong. The only way to think otherwise is if you want to start ceding control from a justice system to one where we just go all in on feels. A mob or vigilante justice both operate under similar rationales, I am not seeing a massive difference if the output is the same. There is a reason we have a legal system (flawed at times) to at least attempt to impartially handle crimes. The alternative turns horribly ugly, even if there are instances where lovely people can fall through the cracks. Like American history is replete with lynchings in the name of 'justice'. The whole argument becomes different if there is no justice system and it is law of the jungle avenging crimes I guess. The woman in black museum was a murderer and given her rationale of stopping a simulation man from being tortured, she surrendered any tiny morality when she additionally tortured the shitpile she hated. Also you are sort of talking about two different situations. When you said punch nazis I assume you mean assaulting right wing people at protests and so such. I don't feel much pity for skinheads getting knocked one, but it isn't legal and the people doing so should face the consequences for assault. If you want to move that to WW2, that was an actual war and the situation is completely different. In a war killing nazis was fine because it was a goddamn war and they were enemy combatants. The resistance weren't murderers and nazis being rightfully convicted of war crimes generally happened under a legal framework. I am going to ignore people executing POWs for this discussion, because lousy but in the face of war generally inevitable. I am not going to weep for the majority of WW2 SS soldier or regular wehrmacht soldiers, but it does bear repeating that we didn't just round everyone in uniform up and execute them. The Cheshire Cat posted:I mentioned a while ago in the thread that the main point of White Bear/Shut up and Dance isn't so much that the protagonists don't deserve punishment (although they don't to the extent that they receive - the whole reason we have impartial judges decide punishments is so that emotional responses to specifically nasty crimes don't result in disproportionate retribution), but rather it's more that the people punishing them are using the rationale of "it's okay because they're bad people" to do horrible things to them. Like people are waiting around just itching to torture someone and jump at the chance as soon as they find a socially acceptable excuse to do so. This is an A+ post. unlawfulsoup fucked around with this message at 21:35 on Jan 2, 2018 |
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2018 21:33
|
|
|
HorseRenoir posted:To me, the issue isn't that the punishment was sadistic/disproportionate, it was the fact that the punishment was some sort of famous amusement park where people would line up for years to get cathartic revenge on an infamous killer. In reality, I think an actual White Bear crime would most likely be forgotten by the public after a week or so in the modern 24 hour news cycle. My impression was that they were there for the show and to have fun and it didn't really matter that much who she was. If she was any other run-of-the-mill murderer, everything would have been exactly the same. I read somewhere that the episode was originally written without the twist of her being a hated criminal and that this part was added very late during the writing process. So, looking at the story without the twist, it's mostly about societal indifference allowing the sadists& sociopaths in society to prey on the weak, the outcasts and outsiders. I think that original theme is still in there. The park operator is the predator and the public is just standing around and watching him play his sadistic games in the park.
|
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2018 21:50
|
|
|
Raspberry Jam It In Me posted:I read somewhere that the episode was originally written without the twist of her being a hated criminal and that this part was added very late during the writing process. So, looking at the story without the twist, it's mostly about societal indifference allowing the sadists& sociopaths in society to prey on the weak, the outcasts and outsiders. I think that original theme is still in there. The park operator is the predator and the public is just standing around and watching him play his sadistic games in the park. Yeah the original plot of the episode was literally just the "fake" storyline used in-universe by the park (some weird signal is turning everyone into passive zombies and psychos are going around taking advantage of the situation), an he only came up with the theme park/bizarre ironic punishment angle like a week before they started shooting.
|
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2018 21:59
|
|
|
HorseRenoir posted:White Bear sucks rear end, it's like Shirley Jackson's "The Lottery" but if the twist was revealed halfway through the story and then the entire second half was just a sadistically detailed depiction of the woman crying and being bludgeoned to death as the narrator goes "whooooah isn't this so hosed up you guys???" White Bear was the one episode where it was just too unbelievable that people would participate in something like this or that it would work without a hitch. At some point in time there would be intervention with her punishment, or her punishment would never exist because people wouldn't even care enough to keep up the charade. And what happens if one of the run throughs she bashes an actor over the head with a rock and kills him, or falls down a hill running from a guy with a gun and snaps her neck? A lot of Black Mirror relies on the slippery slope theory of humanity turning to absolute poo poo and White Bear was one of those episodes where you can safely say humanity would NEVER participate in a convoluted torture plot that takes 100+ people to complete and happens over and over again. We just don't care enough.
|
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2018 22:08
|
|
|
Black Mirror: We'll only torture you to the point that it starts requiring effort.
|
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2018 22:17
|
|
|
Doltos posted:White Bear was the one episode where it was just too unbelievable that people would participate in something like this or that it would work without a hitch. At some point in time there would be intervention with her punishment, or her punishment would never exist because people wouldn't even care enough to keep up the charade. And what happens if one of the run throughs she bashes an actor over the head with a rock and kills him, or falls down a hill running from a guy with a gun and snaps her neck? People in the United States would most definitely go to a theme park to see a criminal run around all scared. Go find any reddit, something awful, twitter, or facebook post about someone committing some terrible crime and look at all the people coming up with all the sick poo poo they want to do to that person as punishment.
|
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2018 22:23
|
|
|
Cojawfee posted:People in the United States would most definitely go to a theme park to see a criminal run around all scared. Go find any reddit, something awful, twitter, or facebook post about someone committing some terrible crime and look at all the people coming up with all the sick poo poo they want to do to that person as punishment. It would be a totally different White Bear episode if you're talking about the quality of people in America who would participate in this. She'd be getting chased by mobility scooters.
|
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2018 22:57
|
|
|
Metalhead was awesome Felt like it was in black and white to hit home that this is the Dog's world, so we see it the way they do Or maybe so that the suicide bed wouldn't cause MPAA issues
|
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2018 23:11
|
|
|
It's kind of depressing how many articles about this season are basically "SHARED UNIVERSE OMG" because they saw a few Easter eggs (which has been a thing at least since White Christmas) instead of addressing any of the interesting implications a show like this has.
|
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2018 23:16
|
|
|
Are we supposed to take away that 15 Million Merits was just a comic book? It's the only episode other than Metalhead that doesn't fit cleanly with the rest of the series apparently taking place over the course of one man's medical career. There have been other references to Wraith Babes and the judge from Hot Shots, so maybe the 15MM world is some hosed up cult somewhere?
|
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2018 23:18
|
|
|
Cojawfee posted:People in the United States would most definitely go to a theme park to see a criminal run around all scared. Go find any reddit, something awful, twitter, or facebook post about someone committing some terrible crime and look at all the people coming up with all the sick poo poo they want to do to that person as punishment. Also, aren't judges in common law countries allowed(under certain circumstances) to come up with alternative punishments? Like, a judge could have given her a life sentences, but also offer her the alternative of being released after 5 years, if she does "community service" in the park during that time. It's voluntary! 
|
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2018 23:26
|
|
|
GoGoGadgetChris posted:Are we supposed to take away that 15 Million Merits was just a comic book? It's the only episode other than Metalhead that doesn't fit cleanly with the rest of the series apparently taking place over the course of one man's medical career. If Black Mirror is a shared universe, I'm going to assume the 15MM characters are cookies. I prefer the episode as a standalone thing but in the context of the kinda dumb "Black Mirror shared universe" thing it seems to me like the best reading. Doesn't fit with the comic book but gently caress, who cares?
|
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2018 23:31
|
|
|
HorseRenoir posted:To me, the issue isn't that the punishment was sadistic/disproportionate, it was the fact that the punishment was some sort of famous amusement park where people would line up for years to get cathartic revenge on an infamous killer. In reality, I think an actual White Bear crime would most likely be forgotten by the public after a week or so in the modern 24 hour news cycle. there was an incredibly popular tv show that outed pedophiles in public. they used an internet vigilante group to run the thing.
|
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2018 23:33
|
|
|
21 Muns posted:If Black Mirror is a shared universe, I'm going to assume the 15MM characters are cookies. I prefer the episode as a standalone thing but in the context of the kinda dumb "Black Mirror shared universe" thing it seems to me like the best reading. Doesn't fit with the comic book but gently caress, who cares? I totally agree on preferring them as standalone. I thought the easter eggs were always a fun little thing but this season really went overboard with IT'S ALL CONNECTED
|
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2018 23:34
|
|
|
Bicyclops posted:I'm "trying too hard" but I'm not assessing the piece enough to understand its subtlety. Yeah, sorry, if not torturing things - even things that "aren't real" - means I'm also trying too hard, well, I'll also own that designation. There is nothing legally wrong with melting your little sister's barbie dolls in the microwave, but it's loving repugnant and at the very least a sign of an unhealthy mind. And that's even before you get to the idea that these programs are, in fact, sentient and can feel pain. Weird torture fetishists gonna fetish, I guess. On topic, I am now a huge fan of Black Mirror. Loved every episode this season.
|
|
#
?
Jan 2, 2018 23:41
|
|
|
Groovelord Neato posted:there was an incredibly popular tv show that outed pedophiles in public. And fun story about that, it resulted in basically no charges being filed because it turns out that baiting pedophiles into outing themselves on your TV show is not proper legal procedure.
|
|
#
?
Jan 3, 2018 00:08
|
|
|
GoGoGadgetChris posted:Metalhead was awesome just a black and white prolonged action/Terminator chase with subtle to-the-side worldbuilding that doesn't shove the answers in your face. it's not one of the best black mirror episodes I don't think I'd say, but it felt "different" this season and that's what mattered to me. I feel like adding the drone operator would've been hamfisted and wouldn't really make sense anyway. The dog was freaky and fun, and while the ending was dark I don't think I actually expected her to survive this encounter. well I did back when she did the river bottle thing but then she just kinda stood around and made a long call until it came back. of course, older lady, I don't wanna be the tactical realism guy, she can't just be continually running. she's not the bot.
|
|
#
?
Jan 3, 2018 00:16
|
|
|
Black Mirror is an anthology series
|
|
#
?
Jan 3, 2018 00:32
|
|
|
Punkin Spunkin posted:Yeah, I really don't get all the backlash with it. I enjoyed feeling like first series Black Mirror again, where it's like "And Now for Something Completely Different!". Starting Black Mirror it was like "Woah, there's one that's basically a near-real-world Prime Minister bestiality thing and then suddenly there's another one where it's this totally created world/society with like...exercise bikes and weird poo poo." whereas a lot of this season's episodes felt too similar or connected or full of commonalities that allowed for Easter Eggs. It was different than the What If Phones approach but it doesn't mean they made a good episode. I would like it if Black Mirror had more episodes like the first episode where it was more a 'What If' than an attack on technology though. Either way my main gripe with Aged Soccer Mom isn't along the tactical realism route. It was that the whole episode kicked off with her doing a tremendously stupid thing that requires neither muscles, endurance, or a special leap of tactical knowledge. She stopped her loving car to look back at the van crash. Not only did she stop, she stopped long enough for the dogbot to slowly commandeer the van and catch up to her. Nothing in the world building of that episode suggests that anyone would do that. They're completely aware of how dangerous these dogbots are and what they're capable of and she stops her car for a long rubberneck to see if her friend was just taking a piss or did in fact die to that superhuman murder machine, thus kicking off the entire series of events. Terrible writing. Just terrible.
|
|
#
?
Jan 3, 2018 00:43
|
|
|
The Cheshire Cat posted:And fun story about that, it resulted in basically no charges being filed because it turns out that baiting pedophiles into outing themselves on your TV show is not proper legal procedure. Last year they screwed up an investigation the US air force was doing because they baited some airman stationed in the UK.
|
|
#
?
Jan 3, 2018 01:01
|
|
|
Eh, the entire episode's premise is about how humans are sentimental creatures that act irrationally. Or at least not min maxing our action points in VATS. I sure as hell would stop for a second to see if a loved one needed help. Even if it was obviously futile.
|
|
#
?
Jan 3, 2018 01:17
|
|
|
There was a neat bit of world building towards the end of metalhead that it isn't common knowledge that they /cast shrapnel grenade on death. They obviously know lot about these things in certain regards as shown by her habituating it from the tree, sending the tracker away and all that. But either they have never killed one, or nobody who has killed one lived
Zenithe fucked around with this message at 01:29 on Jan 3, 2018 |
|
#
?
Jan 3, 2018 01:27
|
|
|
In Metalhead, why does anyone think she would have been home free if she had stayed on the gas pedal? That dog took 10 or so seconds to get the van running and she was maybe 100 feet ahead when the van driver was killed. We didn't know at the time(I thought the grenade was just a riot device) that she was stuck with a tracker. Considering how relentless the dog ended up being it either would have caught her in a longer car chase, caught her when she eventually had to stop to remove the tracker or she would have led her dog and the other ones with the signal to her group of people. She started all this and died because they made an emotional decision to take a huge, unnecessary risk. I'd say the truly dumb decision was using her radio after successfully diverting the dog away. I mean, she said it was a bad idea as she was broadcasting her location. Just rewatched Callister. Ignoring how long the morality of AI torture argument in this thread has gone, ending this episode with Daley shutting the escape down or just reinstalling his game and recreating all of the avatars would have been way more satisfying. AI Nanette went from being completely devastated and distraught to being thrilled to spend her life trapped in an MMO way too quickly.
|
|
#
?
Jan 3, 2018 01:33
|
|
|
The Cheshire Cat posted:I mentioned a while ago in the thread that the main point of White Bear/Shut up and Dance isn't so much that the protagonists don't deserve punishment (although they don't to the extent that they receive - the whole reason we have impartial judges decide punishments is so that emotional responses to specifically nasty crimes don't result in disproportionate retribution), but rather it's more that the people punishing them are using the rationale of "it's okay because they're bad people" to do horrible things to them. Like people are waiting around just itching to torture someone and jump at the chance as soon as they find a socially acceptable excuse to do so. I get that that’s part, maybe most, of what Shut Up and Dance is about, but SUAD is different from White Bear/Callister/White Christmas/Black Museum/Hang the DJ (to a lesser extent; also goddam the ‘torture’ episodes could fill up a season alone now) is that the people that are being ‘tested’ could give up and face the consequences at any time. Sorry, boyo, you jerked off to kiddy porn. You committed the crime, time to do the time. It’s an interesting look into how far you’d go to keep a destructive secret away from people. That concept isn’t in any of the other torture/avatar episodes and is one reason I like it a lot. I can’t really garner sympathy for the people when they can quit at any time if they are honest enough to open up about what they did.
|
|
#
?
Jan 3, 2018 01:36
|
|
|
GoGoGadgetChris posted:Are we supposed to take away that 15 Million Merits was just a comic book? It's the only episode other than Metalhead that doesn't fit cleanly with the rest of the series apparently taking place over the course of one man's medical career. No. They are loving Easter eggs. People are morons.
|
|
#
?
Jan 3, 2018 01:37
|
|
|
facebook jihad posted:No. They are loving Easter eggs. People are morons. A bit funny that this season's easter eggs are literally on display in a museum with incredibly focused, lingering shots of their spotlit glass cases.
|
|
#
?
Jan 3, 2018 01:40
|
|
|
facebook jihad posted:No. They are loving Easter eggs. People are morons. It can be whatever you want until Charlie Brooker says what the answer is.
|
|
#
?
Jan 3, 2018 01:40
|
|
|
facebook jihad posted:No. They are loving Easter eggs. People are morons. To be fair, a few of them are beyond easter eggs at this point. When Nish says "oh, like how we upload old people to the cloud?" that's more than an easter egg, that's directly saying they're in the same universe as the San Junipero episode. Hell, Rolo worked for the same company. Most of the time, it's easter eggs, and I don't think it's all a "shared universe" but some stories definitely take place in the same world.
|
|
#
?
Jan 3, 2018 01:42
|
|
|
Zenithe posted:There was a neat bit of world building towards the end of metalhead that it isn't common knowledge that they /cast shrapnel grenade on death. They obviously know lot about these things in certain regards as shown by her habituating it from the tree, sending the tracker away and all that. But either they have never killed one, or nobody who has killed one lived The factory kicked off with a guy getting a full shrapnel blast to the face and saying leave me, meaning he knew he was hosed, meaning they probably saw that before, meaning she did another ridiculously stupid and emotional thing staring full on into the dog after killing it so she can get the blast. ClumsyThief posted:In Metalhead, why does anyone think she would have been home free if she had stayed on the gas pedal? That dog took 10 or so seconds to get the van running and she was maybe 100 feet ahead when the van driver was killed. Considering that she was driving in backwoods, ya she probably would have gotten away initially. The dogbots amazing and all that but if he pumps the van to full speed to chase after her on a road not meant for high speeds then the dogbots just going to crash. Then again the writers and directors would have had her do an immense gently caress up after getting away anyway. I mean they can progress a story through a character loving up time and again, but at least make it realistic to what they're presenting so far in the world. Why not just have her get away initially and stop to do the message, then have the dogbot roll up in the van without her knowing that it can commandeer them? Why'd they have to have her stop and stare back? It makes zero sense.
|
|
#
?
Jan 3, 2018 01:44
|
|
|
Zenithe posted:There was a neat bit of world building towards the end of metalhead that it isn't common knowledge that they /cast shrapnel grenade on death. They obviously know lot about these things in certain regards as shown by her habituating it from the tree, sending the tracker away and all that. But either they have never killed one, or nobody who has killed one lived I think the one thing that I found excessive bordering on unrealistic. Whether as a security device or war machine its features seemed almost contrary to any kind of real world function. There's just way too much feature creep in the thing for a real life purpose. Like, if it was security drone it can be deadly, but foremost it should should ground and not give chase over miles. If it was an American style assassination drone then it should have better targeting systems to avoid civilian damage. It honestly feels like some super vindicative machine built for ethnic cleansing or mass murder. Which, kinda dampens the impact because we can already do that with some elbow grease and machetes.
|
|
#
?
Jan 3, 2018 01:48
|
|
|
WampaLord posted:To be fair, a few of them are beyond easter eggs at this point. When Nish says "oh, like how we upload old people to the cloud?" that's more than an easter egg, that's directly saying they're in the same universe as the San Junipero episode. Hell, Rolo worked for the same company. Yeah I guess you’re right with respect to BM at least. I still don’t think those comments or references really did anything for any episode’s respective plots, hence they’re Easter eggs. I saw an argument that San Janeperio is sullied now when you consider the hardships that lead to the tech, but no it doesn’t. It stands alone and this one kinda piggy backs off it.
|
|
#
?
Jan 3, 2018 01:50
|
|
|
Considering it's a 99% copy of the robo-dog Boston Dynamics designed for the military, I just assumed that they were military in origin, invented to serve as troops, save human lives, yadda yadda yadda, AI decided to kill all humans
|
|
#
?
Jan 3, 2018 01:51
|
|
|
Thundercracker posted:I think the one thing that I found excessive bordering on unrealistic. Whether as a security device or war machine its features seemed almost contrary to any kind of real world function. There's just way too much feature creep in the thing for a real life purpose. I viewed it as an advanced security drone programmed by someone particularly vindictive/morally bankrupt.
|
|
#
?
Jan 3, 2018 01:52
|
|
|
facebook jihad posted:I saw an argument that San Janeperio is sullied now when you consider the hardships that lead to the tech, but no it doesn’t. It stands alone and this one kinda piggy backs off it. That's a pretty dumb argument, imo. We lost people's lives in the space program but it didn't stop us.
|
|
#
?
Jan 3, 2018 01:52
|
|
|
Holy poo poo holy poo poo holy poo poo White Bear what the crap I watched one episode of this show a while ago and was really turned off by it. National Anthem I think? It really didn't work for me at all - the premise was ridiculous and I "got" the social commentary pretty quickly. I remember just skipping through it a bunch because I found the whole idea dumb. There's no way anyone would negotiate with terrorists at that level, regardless of the funny pigfuckery or not. But wow am I glad I gave this show a second chance. I've now binged through Seasons 4 and 5. Making my way through 3 now. If anyone has any suggestions for what to watch after White Bear, I'd love to hear it. Or should I just watch every episode? Any others to stay away from like National Anthem? Oh my god White Bear, oh my god, just got to the end, oh my god, Jesus that was DARK. Thursday Next fucked around with this message at 01:59 on Jan 3, 2018 |
|
#
?
Jan 3, 2018 01:54
|
|
|
Thursday Next posted:Holy poo poo holy poo poo holy poo poo White Bear what the crap "The Waldo Moment" is pretty dumb, but I've loved every other episode (other than National Anthem)
|
|
#
?
Jan 3, 2018 02:03
|
|
|
Thursday Next posted:Holy poo poo holy poo poo holy poo poo White Bear what the crap The Entire History of You
|
|
#
?
Jan 3, 2018 02:04
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 25, 2024 07:08 |
|
|
Thursday Next posted:I watched one episode of this show a while ago and was really turned off by it. National Anthem I think? National Anthem is pretty weak as an intro to the show. I enjoyed it more on second viewing but it still ranks near the bottom of the series for me. Watch them all, but White Christmas, Shut up and Dance and The Entire History of You are my favorites.
|
|
#
?
Jan 3, 2018 02:04
|
|