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What about space combat? Is it still abstracted to happen in/across the solar system where the second "combat" starts (e.g. your fleets get within some arbitrary range of any foreign object) your fleets slow to a crawl, spaz out trying to get into some bad and useless formation, then crawl slowly towards the random space object that they want to shoot? Am I still forced to engage random mining stations when I really dont want to when I am trying to urgently get my fleet through the solar system?RabidWeasel posted:everyone starts with level 1 armour, shields, and all weapon types so you can make different ships right from day 1. RabidWeasel posted:Luckily they're dropping the critically flawed multiple FTL types concept so that combat can be meaningful, so this isn't an important consideration any more. Lum_ posted:Nope. There's a mod that will handle it for you though. http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=691008512 Works fine, turn it on and never look at your tiles ever again.
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Jan 8, 2018 16:49
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AAAAA! Real Muenster posted:lol I should not need a mod to make a game playable. life is a series of unfair events
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Jan 8, 2018 16:55
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Lum_ posted:life is a series of unfair events
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Jan 8, 2018 16:57
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AAAAA! Real Muenster posted:What about space combat? Is it still abstracted to happen in/across the solar system where the second "combat" starts (e.g. your fleets get within some arbitrary range of any foreign object) your fleets slow to a crawl, spaz out trying to get into some bad and useless formation, then crawl slowly towards the random space object that they want to shoot? Am I still forced to engage random mining stations when I really dont want to when I am trying to urgently get my fleet through the solar system? it's unclear from the dev diaries so far, but it was mentioned that if you take over a system's starbase during a war, you get that system's economic output including mining stations until the enemy takes it back or the war ends. it would seem a little foolish to have a system like that in place but keep the tendency for fleets to shoot at mining stations without being ordered to, so hopefully they're just going to be passive actors until shot at now.
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Jan 8, 2018 17:04
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Fleets have been tweaked to ignore mining stations unless directly ordered to attack them for a couple patches now.
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Jan 8, 2018 17:10
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Jazerus posted:it's unclear from the dev diaries so far, but it was mentioned that if you take over a system's starbase during a war, you get that system's economic output including mining stations until the enemy takes it back or the war ends. it would seem a little foolish to have a system like that in place but keep the tendency for fleets to shoot at mining stations without being ordered to, so hopefully they're just going to be passive actors until shot at now.
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Jan 8, 2018 17:11
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Making space-stations indestructible doesn't sound like a good design decision
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Jan 8, 2018 17:32
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It's accompanied by making them much much rarer, like only a few per empire. They're now big centralized shipyards or fortresses, strategic assets that you want to capture/protect.
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Jan 8, 2018 17:37
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AAAAA! Real Muenster posted:Thats cool. That reminds me of another gripe I had and what you said makes it sound like they did something about it - spacestations were not "take over"-able previously, has that changed? I thought it was complete insanity that it would take months or years to build and upgrade a space station then a big fleet could pop in and utterly destroy it in an instant. So I had always thought that they should get disabled rather than destroyed, and thus then need to be repaired instead of rebuilt. And then they could get taken over and used by the person doing the takevoer, I guess? every system will have an indestructible (but dismantleable, if you own it and have no colonies in the system) starbase, which is like the top-level holding in CK2 in that ownership of it determines province/system control. most of your starbases will be trivial outposts, a few will be extremely built-up structures. planets will only have civilian shipyards. Jazerus fucked around with this message at 18:21 on Jan 8, 2018 |
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Jan 8, 2018 17:41
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AAAAA! Real Muenster posted:Oh lord their forums must be melting down. Yeah that particular dev diary has like 250 pages of replies and so, so many nerd tears, it's beautiful.
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Jan 8, 2018 18:18
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I mean, as someone who literally never played hyperlane poo poo because I found it dumb and lame, I get it, but it's the least bad of the options present. At least they're finally adding wormholes, though they still haven't gone whole Warlock and added pocket universes to connect poo poo
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Jan 8, 2018 18:58
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RabidWeasel posted:Because MOO had it, basically. No game since MOO had done ships right, including MOO2, because they remove the limitations (8x8 combat grid, 6 designs at a time) that made those systems meaningful.
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Jan 8, 2018 19:06
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Jazerus posted:every system will have an indestructible (but dismantleable, if you own it and have no colonies in the system) starbase, which is like the top-level holding in CK2 in that ownership of it determines province/system control. most of your starbases will be trivial outposts, a few will be extremely built-up structures. planets will only have civilian shipyards. RabidWeasel posted:Yeah that particular dev diary has like 250 pages of replies and so, so many nerd tears, it's beautiful.
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Jan 8, 2018 19:37
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PerniciousKnid posted:No game since MOO had done ships right, including MOO2, because they remove the limitations (8x8 combat grid, 6 designs at a time) that made those systems meaningful. Yeah moo has a very specific ship designer that matched its very specific turn based tactical combat system presenting specific meaningful choices. Every other 4X has just cargo-culted that poo poo without understanding the specifics or the why's.
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Jan 8, 2018 19:40
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ZearothK posted:Did they throw away ship-customizing? AAAAA! Real Muenster posted:lol I should not need a mod to make a game playable. 
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Jan 8, 2018 20:18
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YF-23 posted:Paradox games have a strong legacy of great mods. With EU4 onwards the quality of the base games has been good enough that there's no real "must-haves" in terms of mods. And that's a good thing, but don't just turn your back on our roots.
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Jan 8, 2018 20:21
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Stellaris is totally fine without mods. It's not like Skylines where you're only getting like 5% of the fun of the game if you are juggling a complex web of 16gigs worth of assets and radical game-altering mods.
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Jan 8, 2018 20:26
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Baronjutter posted:Stellaris is totally fine without mods. It's not like Skylines where you're only getting like 5% of the fun of the game if you are juggling a complex web of 16gigs worth of assets and radical game-altering mods.
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Jan 8, 2018 20:33
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AAAAA! Real Muenster posted:Except, in my opinion, it is an unplayable piece of trash right now. Tile management was a bad idea from the outset and is just so awful I do not understand how it got past the initial design phase. The fact that mining/research stations were armed with guns that could not even defeat a single starter combat ship was so insanely dumb I am still mystified. The fact that then, because those things were armed, the decidedly incredibly dumb space-combat mechanics dictated that the second combat starts, which is when your fleets get within some unclear and arbitrary range (a range unrelated to the range of the weapons on your ships) of any foreign object you lose ALL control of your ships, they slow to a crawl, wheel about aimlessly for a few seconds trying to get into some pointless formation, then crawl slowly towards the random space object that they want to shoot. I hear you can still gently caress with the AI by placing a hyperspace anchor with other military platforms a certain distance away in positions opposite each other compared to where the fleet lands, and the combat AI (which, as already noted, takes all control away from you, the player) will completely poo poo itself and essentially sit there and die. These are all 100% valid opinions, the game just manages to be fun for some people despite all that. It's getting better, but they're still a little sensitive and defensive about some of their weird/bad design choices.
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Jan 8, 2018 20:43
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Baronjutter posted:These are all 100% valid opinions, the game just manages to be fun for some people despite all that. It's getting better, but they're still a little sensitive and defensive about some of their weird/bad design choices. I think Paradox's best course of action would be to admit that they hosed up and just make Stellaris 2 right now, then offer a discount to anyone who already has Stellaris. I feel that they would make more money in the long run because loyal Paradox fanboys like me would then be willing to buy Stellaris 2 DLC. No one I know that likes space 4x/strategy games likes Stellaris at all, which I find pretty stark considering those same friends all like CKII and/or EU4.
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Jan 8, 2018 20:52
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I don't understand your complaints about the combat taking away all control from YOU, the player. Is there really a big difference between getting engaged before your ships form up or getting attacked in a province before you can move out? Also IIRC the only time they have to "move into formation" is if they get attacked in the back or just arrived in the system. Might have been different back on release when the formation module existed but I don't remember.
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Jan 8, 2018 20:59
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Stellaris is like their best selling game and remains popular, business wise they have not hosed up at all with Stellaris. The big 2.0 update seems to be gutting a ton of stuff, but I do often think starting over from scratch might be better because I think all the core gameplay "bones" are bad. Tiles are bad, seperate system/galaxy maps you constantly have to zoom in/out of are bad, the economy that's just raw minerals and energy but nothing representing production capacity is bad, the combat and cargo-cult 4X ship designer are bad. Yet since the most recent DLC I've actually racked up a lot of genuinely enjoyable hours into that game.
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Jan 8, 2018 21:00
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I would like to point out, though this won't make the game fun if you didn't like it, that space mining/research stations dragging you into combat has been out for a few patches. You have to very deliberately make your ships attack them now. I agree that it was horrifyingly stupid to have in, but it isn't anymore, thank god.
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Jan 8, 2018 21:02
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GrossMurpel posted:I don't understand your complaints about the combat taking away all control from YOU, the player. Is there really a big difference between getting engaged before your ships form up or getting attacked in a province before you can move out? Also IIRC the only time they have to "move into formation" is if they get attacked in the back or just arrived in the system. Might have been different back on release when the formation module existed but I don't remember. Sometimes it's infuriating because you have to give constant fiddly orders to your fleets in certain situations in order to head off fleets or beat the odds, but at the same time your entire strategy can be ruined because your fleet got 2 pixels too close to an enemy transport or something and suddenly your entire fleet drastically reduces its fleet and starts fanning out to shoot some dumb unrelated thing and now ohhhh gently caress the other fleet you were chasing got away, or the fleet you were running away from has caught up. The game sort of forces you to "micro" your fleets in a lot of tricky situations by horribly punishing you for not, but the game doesn't really seem designed around it and doesn't let you have any input once shots are being fired. So it all ends up feeling frustrating and inconsistent, where you need to babysit and exactly click detailed real time movement orders for your fleet with no margin or error or your tactics won't work as if you were the actual captain or admiral of the fleet working on the tactical level, but once shots are fired it's suddenly "you're the player, not a ship captain this isn't the game's scope!" Give me hands-off combat and fleet movement where I just order fleets around on the galaxy map and they handle in-system movement competently, or give me more control over fleets letting me adjust stances or break off combat or plow through/ignore minor fleets to go after the true target. But instead we get this weird worst of both worlds situation.
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Jan 8, 2018 21:09
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I am willing to die on the hill of defending the tile system and ship designer.
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Jan 8, 2018 21:27
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AAAAA! Real Muenster posted:Ahahaha whaaaat? This is so loving bizarro. I may just go read those Dev Diaries for the laughs. This is good poo poo. It’s really close to how eu4 forts work. They work really well you should go check that game out.
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Jan 8, 2018 21:38
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GrossMurpel posted:I don't understand your complaints about the combat taking away all control from YOU, the player. Is there really a big difference between getting engaged before your ships form up or getting attacked in a province before you can move out? Also IIRC the only time they have to "move into formation" is if they get attacked in the back or just arrived in the system. Might have been different back on release when the formation module existed but I don't remember. I also do not understand what you mean by your second sentence. My complaint is with the fact that, as Baronjutter already alluded to, if the enemy has a transport starbase, or a small fleet in a system, then my fleet arrives in that system, if one of those hostile entities is within range, I lose control of my fleet, and it sloths its way over towards said entity to kill it, regardless of if I want to kill it or not. Since the game's combat is so deadly (you often lose a whole fleet if the fleet is engaged by a superior force) it is incredibly important that your fleet does exactly what you want it to do, otherwise you lose control of it and thus may end up engaging something that you do not want to engage, such as a superior force that catches up to you from out-of-system. That is what many refer to as "not fun" or "infuriating". Bholder posted:I am willing to die on the hill of defending the tile system and ship designer. 
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Jan 8, 2018 21:40
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Senor Dog posted:It’s really close to how eu4 forts work. They work really well you should go check that game out.  I just think its odd that control of planets in a system will be dependent on the control of a space station. It just does not jive with how I think system control should work in a space 4x.
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Jan 8, 2018 21:42
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AAAAA! Real Muenster posted:You know I play EU4 Makes perfect sense to me, planets don't have any way to project force. They won't even be able to build military vessels any more.
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Jan 8, 2018 21:53
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I donno, maybe the stations hold control because they can (threaten to) deploy ur quan slave shields over planets.
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Jan 8, 2018 21:53
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Control isn't tied fully to spaceports, if there are inhabited planets in the system you also need to capture them to gain full control. And planets can build fortresses and FTL inhibitors and poo poo to make you come conquer them instead of just bypassing.
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Jan 8, 2018 21:53
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So I want to do an Austria HRE run but I'm not sure how to approach it. I've done Brandenburg and expanded the usual way by painting the map grey to make Mega Germany but I want to work within the mechanics of the HRE and expand that way. But how?
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Jan 8, 2018 21:54
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Crazycryodude posted:Control isn't tied fully to spaceports, if there are inhabited planets in the system you also need to capture them to gain full control. And planets can build fortresses and FTL inhibitors and poo poo to make you come conquer them instead of just bypassing. Shimrra Jamaane posted:So I want to do an Austria HRE run but I'm not sure how to approach it. I've done Brandenburg and expanded the usual way by painting the map grey to make Mega Germany but I want to work within the mechanics of the HRE and expand that way. But how?
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Jan 8, 2018 21:59
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Shimrra Jamaane posted:So I want to do an Austria HRE run but I'm not sure how to approach it. I've done Brandenburg and expanded the usual way by painting the map grey to make Mega Germany but I want to work within the mechanics of the HRE and expand that way. But how? Here's a good guide to help you get through the first 150 years or so, from there on you should be in a solid position: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TI0aU3PEir0
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Jan 8, 2018 22:28
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AAAAA! Real Muenster posted:Oh lord their forums must be melting down. There are a surprising amount of people who are violently, viscerally opposed to hyperlanes as being the worst scourge on God's green earth since the Huns.
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Jan 8, 2018 23:38
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Tomn posted:There are a surprising amount of people who are violently, viscerally opposed to hyperlanes as being the worst scourge on God's green earth since the Huns. I mean, there is certainly room for argument that the game could and should have been more than 4x-light-EU4-in-space but the die is already cast, now that they're obviously dedicated to fixing the way that warfare is conducted I can't see a better solution than this. The alternatives were discussed in the dev diary and I fully agree with the reasoning that they would not work well in practice; the other alternative is just denying that there needs to be something to restrict unlimited raiding ability, which does seem to be the opinion of the majority of the extremely aggressively pissed off people, but one that I strongly disagree with and I'm glad that they're being sidelined. I would totally agree with them if Stellaris was turn based but it's not and it makes a big difference!
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Jan 8, 2018 23:53
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In honor of the 23 100% male people who viewed Tolerance Wolf in the past week, I made the video public
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Jan 9, 2018 00:11
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i want the guy who added it to a playlist to tell us what the hell else is on there
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Jan 9, 2018 00:15
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AAAAA! Real Muenster posted:Since the game's combat is so deadly (you often lose a whole fleet if the fleet is engaged by a superior force) it is incredibly important that your fleet does exactly what you want it to do, otherwise you lose control of it and thus may end up engaging something that you do not want to engage, such as a superior force that catches up to you from out-of-system. That is what many refer to as "not fun" or "infuriating". They're making combat less lethal too. They're adding a chance for ships at low health to withdraw from combat (bigger chance for smaller ships), and maybe some other stuff I'm forgetting. Also trying to encourage you to split up your fleet. The idea is to make wars closer to wars of attrition, instead of wiping the enemy fleet and then slowly occupying planets one by one while they can't do anything to stop you. They're also adding a war goal system, where notably white peace is gone and replaced by a status quo (not ante bellum) peace where both sides keep any occupied claims. Purifiers etc won't need claims and will immediately annex systems they control. Warscore is completely gone I think, replaced by a war exhaustion system or something?
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Jan 9, 2018 00:32
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RabidWeasel posted:I mean, there is certainly room for argument that the game could and should have been more than 4x-light-EU4-in-space but the die is already cast, now that they're obviously dedicated to fixing the way that warfare is conducted I can't see a better solution than this. The alternatives were discussed in the dev diary and I fully agree with the reasoning that they would not work well in practice; the other alternative is just denying that there needs to be something to restrict unlimited raiding ability, which does seem to be the opinion of the majority of the extremely aggressively pissed off people, but one that I strongly disagree with and I'm glad that they're being sidelined. I've been often critical of Paradox recent releases, but I agree forcing hyperlanes is one of the better moves they can do to make strategic positioning relevant in the game as it is. Stations and planets having upgrades to reduce mobility is also an improvement. ZearothK fucked around with this message at 02:20 on Jan 9, 2018 |
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Jan 9, 2018 01:47
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