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Toplowtech posted:Everything. We do not keep the fucker because we like him, despite what ignorant Americans think. But none of the crimes Polanski is guilty of are even eligible for the death penalty? Like, that's not an actual risk.
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Jan 11, 2018 22:26
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CountFosco posted:But none of the crimes Polanski is guilty of are even eligible for the death penalty? Like, that's not an actual risk. Yeah, I understand a country not wanting to send their citizen over to get executed, but that has zero chance of happening here. Like, the absolute worst I can imagine him getting would be a few years in jail, and I would honestly be pretty surprised if it was that bad.
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Jan 11, 2018 22:37
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CountFosco posted:But none of the crimes Polanski is guilty of are even eligible for the death penalty? Like, that's not an actual risk. edit: *actually could sentence him to death I forgot tons of stuff about the Einhorn case but: quote:Following the court's decision, 35 members of the US Congress sent a letter to French President Jacques Chirac of France to ask for Einhorn's extradition. However, under France's doctrine of the separation of powers, which was invoked in this case, the President cannot give orders to courts and does not intervene in extradition affairs. Toplowtech fucked around with this message at 22:59 on Jan 11, 2018 |
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Jan 11, 2018 22:44
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Toplowtech posted:Okay if you want the some of the motives, Catherine Deneuve is old sure but she also was old enough to be one of the signatories of de Beauvoir's Manifesto of the 343 Sluts. What she is doing is basically telling the young women in france that American style feminism, after nonsense like Gamergate, the new ghostbuster and Hillary Clinton's non-election and ultimate defeat against someone they now daily compare to a brainless idiot (so what are the people he managed to beat, many wonder?) should be seen at best as worthless and at worst as toxic. The thing is we have far better abortion laws and many old school feminists beside Deneuve are currently afraid the current brand of American feminism could end up being toxic, alienate the electorates and cause a regression to the laws in other countries. That if that poo poo spread here (well worse than it's already and some could argue it was born here and just flourished on the other side of the Atlantic), it's going to poison the weel and we are going back to align with country with poo poo abortion laws like the US, Germany or Italy. You're going to have to walk me through that chain of cause and effect. quote:Also the second the state of California stop allowing the death penalty, Polanski will be thrown to a plane to Hollywood quote:and i don't remember the Mexico thing but i think to remember a vaguely similar sounding case of the French woman who was the children mother and it's about the Mexican dad wanting his kids back and accusing her of prostituting them? quote:But hey, feel, free to react by calling us backward rapist-loving assholes that don't know what they are talking about, we are use to that kind of reactions from Americans since the Second Iraq war. It's more or less a formal '#notallmen' lead by powerful people and cultural trendsetters, why the gently caress wouldn't people criticise them for that? Charlotte Rampling, an old, well respected actress, got similarly blasted for being completely tonedeaf on the 'oscars so white' thing. Toplowtech posted:Not allowing extraditions of French citizen to countries which refuse to ban the death penalty is what it is about. I think in the Ira Einhorn case we literally asked the USA to start a new trial because the original one sentenced him to actual death* for murder. But Einhorn wasn't a french national so sending him to serve a life sentence was okay. The golden rule is you aren't deported to death penalty places, if you are French citizen. Moving Polanski trial to new mexico could work, i guess, but i don't think it's an option. It's also absolute bullshit, since Mexico didn't have the death penalty, and Florence Cassez lives as a free woman in France (unlike the Mexican kids she sold into slavery) This isn't a general statement about France. Polanski is a member of the cultural elite, that's why he's protected. It's about the same abuse of power that happens everywhere.
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Jan 11, 2018 23:34
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What about "the new Ghostbuster" was an issue? It was a forgettable movie that had creeps harassing one of the actresses, which, uh, doesn't reflect on the dangers of "American feminism" or whatever. e: actually I'm not sure what any of those things you listed have to do with feminists being "toxic" at all Motto fucked around with this message at 23:41 on Jan 11, 2018 |
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Jan 11, 2018 23:37
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Motto posted:What about "the new Ghostbuster" was an issue? It was a forgettable movie that had creeps harassing one of the actresses, which, uh, doesn't reflect on the dangers of "American feminism" or whatever. It wasn't. It became a feminist rallying cry only because MRA fuckwits decided it was an attack on traditional masculinity or whatever. As a result, they made watching a forgettable movie into a statement. Gamergate was in no way a feminist thing either. It was the opposite. It was anti-feminists getting into lynch mobs over gaming journalism.
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Jan 11, 2018 23:41
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Snowman_McK posted:"If we admit sexual assault is a problem, our abortion laws will be ruined." quote:Protecting a pedophile to make a statement about another country's death penalty while letting him continue to be a free, lauded director is a really lovely way to make a point. Toplowtech fucked around with this message at 23:47 on Jan 11, 2018 |
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Jan 11, 2018 23:43
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Toplowtech posted:Nice way to reinterpret what people say to you. Here is another one "listen and try to understand people". Sexual assault is problem, your solution to it will most likely make poo poo even worse, yes.You know the opposite of better. If you think that make me a monster to doubt you, fell free to put me on your ignore list. I can admire your desire to make the world a better place, ideological napalm and lynching crowds are just not my taste. In what sense will 'calling out people who have committed it' made it worse? In what sense will saying 'I wasn't assaulted' help? What the gently caress does 'ideological napalm' even mean? quote:Pretty sure it's also done on the European level by the European court of Human Rights and it also protect terrorists who actually murdered children. If the USA suddenly decided to abolish the death penalty, i would give the country two weeks top, judging by the raging self righteous fury in this thread to do the same or probably even worse. What? Seriously...what?
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Jan 11, 2018 23:48
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Toplowtech posted:Dumb controversies is what feed the far right machine. I wish it wasn't the case and i may sound crazy to you but that stupid poo poo is actually damaging. loving dumb poo poo like the Leonarda Dibrani mediatic nonsense in France are toxic. So if we're going to go with something like Gamergate, I'm confused as to what the takeaway is. I followed that way more than I should have and it was as cut and dry a case of 'being a female game developers is loving terrible and you'll probably the target of a vigorous, gigantic campaign of online harassment over your sex life' as possible. If that tells us anything the far right machine will manufacture controversies wholesale and it's loving pointless to try get concerned about the feminist movement being 'too toxic', there will always be something, no matter how dumb or how obviously bullshit that they will latch onto and in that world getting preoccupied with tone or trying to make yourself as presentable as possible is an endless losing battle. As well as that almost all of these controversies will just be playing to people who've already made up their minds long ago. quote:Now see, if you do nothing the other side would find poo poo to do to damage you. I am not telling you to do nothing and shut up, i am asking you are you sure you are doing your best to actually improve the situation and not to waste your time on worthless controversies. The point is not to push hard against reactionary, it's to loving win concrete things, like rights or concrete objective not loving online controversy against trolls. But hey, let's firebomb everything, the goddess will recognize her own and i am sure it will make you feel good. Dude, the problem, as I touched on above, is that being preoccupied with optics is not really going to help anything and the idea that you can push too far and awaken the screaming ape in society who'll reverse everything achieved up to this point is a recipe for inaction. Concrete things are already, clearly happening as a result of all of this fallout from stuff like Weinstein, certain people who've been allowed to act completely inappropriately for decades are being kicked to the curb and more and more people are willing to speak up about their experiences. I don't live in France but articles like this lead me to believe that the country is experiencing it's own long overdue boiling over of resentment about the issue of sexual harassment, and if someone like Deneuve is going to concern troll about Notallmen and how some Anglo-influenced Feminism is ruining France's libertine culture then I think she can take a hike.
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Jan 11, 2018 23:50
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Yeah, citing Gamergate as an example of feminists making a big deal out of nothing is not just misunderstanding what Gamergate was, it's reversing the roles almost perfectly.
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Jan 11, 2018 23:52
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Toplowtech posted:Nice way to reinterpret what people say to you. Here is another one "listen and try to understand people". Sexual assault is a problem, your solution to it will most likely make poo poo even worse, yes.You know the opposite of better. If you think that make me a monster to doubt you, fell free to put me on your ignore list. I can admire your desire to make the world a better place, ideological napalm and lynching crowds are just not my taste. How on Earth is "actually accusing rapists of being rapists" a crazy, drastic solution? How does any sort of movement forward happen without that?
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Jan 12, 2018 01:45
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Pigbuster posted:How on Earth is "actually accusing rapists of being rapists" a crazy, drastic solution? How does any sort of movement forward happen without that? Are you really surprised that the person defending Roman Polanski (who was never even close to facing the death penalty, if that's the bullshit argument being presented itt) is against people speaking out against sexual assault? I can't wait to see the explanation they're cooking up for why Harvey Weinstein is actually a great guy who is just misunderstood by unenlightened Americans.
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Jan 12, 2018 04:09
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Grenrow posted:Are you really surprised that the person defending Roman Polanski (who was never even close to facing the death penalty, if that's the bullshit argument being presented itt) is against people speaking out against sexual assault? I can't wait to see the explanation they're cooking up for why Harvey Weinstein is actually a great guy who is just misunderstood by unenlightened Americans. they're not saying that Polanski was ever facing the death penalty, they're saying that French national policy is to not extradite french nationals to countries with the death penalty, regardless of the crime committed. It's a statement meant to make a moral stance about the death penalty as a nation. They don't believe that the justice system in our country is fair simply because of the fact that we have executions as a punishment, not that Polanski would ever be executed for what he did. (IMO the French are right about the death penalty and that being the reason they don't extradite their citizens is the first good argument I"ve ever heard for not extraditing Polanski, even if I don't necessarily think it's enough.) that said, I don't believe for a quarter of a second that if the US (or even California) got rid of it that Polanski would be on his way back here. I've gotten the impression that the french people are split about whether to send him back and they don't have the qualms that the government does.
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Jan 12, 2018 04:24
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This whole defense of the french pov is so nonsensical.
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Jan 12, 2018 04:43
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khwarezm posted:That is some bullshit and basically works off this idea that feminism needs to make itself meek and not push hard too hard against the reactionaries lest they throw a tantrum and take away people's rights. I think it's partially a reflection on how close-minded and partisan modern politics can be, US politics especially. It's human nature to seek out information they agree with, to readily dismiss or to pass over arguments that don't align with them, and be disengaged with issues they are unsure about. Over-reach can cost political movements support and momentum, because it pushes people to stop reading up on related events, and become sceptical and disinterested. The most obvious recent example of this is climate change. Early in the climate change debate there were those who thought the only way to bring this debate to public attention and motivate action was to provide exaggerated doomsday scenarios. Ten metre rises in sea levels and the like. This caused a significant portion of the population to become dismissive of climate change, to not read up on it, to question the motives of the scientists who made predictions like that, and to view the constantly increasing temperature as a potentially natural phenomenon, with the climate change scientists changing their predictions to match the facts. The climate change debate should not even be a debate, yet it is, and has lost a decade of time thanks to, in my mind, those early claims. It's a sad reflection on how we engage with political issues, but it's just how it is. Look at the sexual assault on US campuses issue, and the damage that the Rolling Stone "A Rape on Campus" article did. One article about one person that wasn't true created an undercurrent of scepticism, to the point where Trump winding back the Obama changes was met with relative disinterest. The abuse in Hollywood is having an impact at the moment, and I can see why people would want to reign it back a bit, just to keep in a position of being beyond reproach, especially if you want this to be not just about Hollywood, but a call to action across all industries. They don't want over-reach causing people to start questioning all new claims without looking into them, and start viewing the entire situation as tabloid trash where vain, super-rich stars complain about other vain, super-rich stars, because their unobtainably luxurious lifestyles and pretend jobs are occasionally interrupted by a jerk co-worker. Keep the message on topic that there is endemic sexual abuse and harrassment and the current power structures not only fail to address this, but they actively cover it up. Force change, bank the win, push on with the next issue. It's nice to think that this a super cynical reading of modern politics and political engagement, but with Trump as the US president, I don't know what to think anymore.
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Jan 12, 2018 05:45
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US politics on the right, and increasingly on the left, is fueled by outrage and offense. This can get people worked up and have positive short term effects, but it does not seem to be conducive to actually getting things done. Yes some people tone police because they don't actually want you to express yourself and find it easier to criticize tone than actually engage in explicit disagreement, but other people tone police because they actually dislike the tone despite agreeing with the content and feel the tone is making them look bad for agreeing with you and making it harder to make new allies. It's important to call out the first, but when you reach a point that you're calling out people who agree with you and disregarding their concerns (which ironically is also a form of tone policing, you must full throatedly agree or shut up) it starts to become toxic. Whether this is a point feminism has actually reached in the US is debatable, but it's not a stretch to see why people who aren't in the US and are, or have been, involved in actual activism may see things this way when their experience isn't daily person to person interactions or activist debate but rather twitter slacktivism that seems to feed on the same kind of outrage cycle that brought the right to Trump. A more constructive way to view the French letter than to try to shame them and call them traitors is to consider why these natural allies felt the need to publish such a letter. Maybe it says something about them actually being traitors to the cause, or cowards, or maybe it says something about generational gaps, or maybe it says that they're unwilling or unable to understand the movement, but maybe, at least in part, it also says that the movement is not expressing itself as well as it could. This is, of course, an inevitable outcome of any crowdsourced movement of this sort, it's not an indictment or a call to stop, but rather an opportunity to look forward and find ways to clarify and work towards improvement of society for everyone.
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Jan 12, 2018 06:45
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DC Murderverse posted:
It would be a good argument if Polanski was being charged with a capital offense. Frances policy is dumb and shortsighted and it's being used to protect a pedophile, by a guy whos more worried about rapists getting lynched than about justice for their victims. Lets put 2 and 2 together here.
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Jan 12, 2018 07:20
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Snowman_McK posted:What? Seriously...what? Neither the European Convention on Human Rights or the EU itself (for which becoming a member of signing the convention is mandatory) fucks around when it comes to the death penalty, there are no exceptions.
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Jan 12, 2018 07:50
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Eh, it's not surprising Deneuve is out of sync with modern feminism. The movement and the ideas/ objectives behind it changes with each generation and pushes for more social change so it snowballs. Her kind of feminism was once necessary and useful but now it isn't. It would be nice if people with her kind of cultural cachet kept current with it (maybe some do, but none I'm aware of right now) but I'm pretty sure there are studies that show the values you embed in your 20s never really change.
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Jan 12, 2018 08:13
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YodaTFK posted:It would be a good argument if Polanski was being charged with a capital offense. Frances policy is dumb and shortsighted and it's being used to protect a pedophile, by a guy whos more worried about rapists getting lynched than about justice for their victims. Lets put 2 and 2 together here. nah, the death penalty is barbaric and we're a backwards loving shithole as long as we continue to have it and those european countries have the right idea. It would be a really lovely moral stance if they said "we will not extradite our citizens to any country who uses the death penalty because it is inhumane and any country with it has a hosed up justice system except if they're really bad." Do unto others as you would have them do unto you, etc. like i cannot stress how loving awful the death penalty is, both morally and from an efficiency and efficacy standpoint. edit: let it be known that I cannot loving stand Roman Polanski and it is an incredibly awful situation and until this moment I wanted him extradited but quite frankly "France should just send him over because the US is never going to get rid of the death penalty and it's not like he's going to be executed" is a trash argument. More countries should not extradite their citizens until we get rid of the death penalty because even though I don't think it would actually do anything if we're gonna act like some loving shithole they should treat us like some loving shithole. And yes I'm aware that this makes Japan and China "some loving shithole" but you know what if the shoe fits edit: what we can and should do is loving shame and not support anyone who goes over there to make movies with him. we're never going to get the french government to change their policy, and the US is a bloodthirsty hellscape that will never say "maybe we shouldn't execute people like we're in the middle loving ages", so the most we can do is remove support from the other entities that continue to support him. DC Murderverse fucked around with this message at 09:17 on Jan 12, 2018 |
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Jan 12, 2018 09:11
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Yeah, the death penalty is basically terrible and has no legitimate reason to exist. Anyway, the problem isn’t really France refusing to send him back, it’s that he ran away in the first place. And as far as I understand it, he admits he did it but doesn’t actually think what he did was wrong. Yeah I know there was that thing where he thought he was going to get 50 years or something and that’s why he ran away, but the chances of something like that actually holding up are pretty drat low. Polanski’s a pretty despicable guy.
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Jan 12, 2018 11:31
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Dr. S.O. Feelgood posted:Yeah, the death penalty is basically terrible and has no legitimate reason to exist. Anyway, the problem isn’t really France refusing to send him back, it’s that he ran away in the first place. And as far as I understand it, he admits he did it but doesn’t actually think what he did was wrong. Yeah I know there was that thing where he thought he was going to get 50 years or something and that’s why he ran away, but the chances of something like that actually holding up are pretty drat low. Polanski’s a pretty despicable guy. Yeah I mean check out interviews he did afterwards talking about 'younger' girls. He hid behind it as being the European way, which is a load of bullshit. You can say what you want about the case (and really I've seen plenty of good points that the judges stance would've been talked down from what he was telling the press), but Polanski himself didn't see what he did as being wrong, not really. That's the part that's frustrating about Hollywood's seeming forgiveness of him. It's repurposed as well you see Polanski was a victim too. Poor man, he was having to hide all these years.
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Jan 12, 2018 12:30
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Dr. S.O. Feelgood posted:And as far as I understand it, he admits he did it but doesn’t actually think what he did was wrong. Yeah I know there was that thing where he thought he was going to get 50 years or something and that’s why he ran away, but the chances of something like that actually holding up are pretty drat low. Polanski’s a pretty despicable guy. He was going to get a much larger sentence, because the original was a sweetheart deal that would have had him out in 40 days or something atrocious. Some people seem to see it as a miscarriage of justice that the plea agreement wasn't held to, even though judges are perfectly free to set those aside (such as in cases like Polanski's).
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Jan 12, 2018 16:54
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If I had big money in Hollywood, I think I'd commission an absurdly sympathetic Polanski biopic as a schmaltzy Oscar bait movie, and I'd trick a bunch of high-profile actors who support Polanski into being in it. Then I'd promote the gently caress out of it, so as many people as possible would see it, be actively morally offended by it, and think "holy poo poo, this is actually how Hollywood sees things". Accelerationism woo!
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Jan 12, 2018 17:25
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IANAL, but wouldn't the statue of limitations on the 79 charge have expired eons ago? Or since Polanski skipped town, its a perpetuating thing?
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Jan 12, 2018 17:58
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Child rape is one of those things that doesn't have a statue of limitations, but I guess you'd have to check the relevant laws of the prosecuting jurisdiction.
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Jan 12, 2018 18:08
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Rhyno posted:What's the opposite of being shocked? That's how I feel hearing that Douglas is also a sex pest. Resigned?
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Jan 12, 2018 20:14
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Nissin Cup Nudist posted:IANAL, but wouldn't the statue of limitations on the 79 charge have expired eons ago? Or since Polanski skipped town, its a perpetuating thing? The statute of limitations doesnt apply, Polansky had already been convicted when he ran away.
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Jan 13, 2018 01:16
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DrVenkman posted:Yeah I mean check out interviews he did afterwards talking about 'younger' girls. He hid behind it as being the European way, which is a load of bullshit. Having to hide all these years in the country that he's actually from. How awful. Holding up France's actions as any kind of moral stand is bollocks, because it's not like they've prosecuted him themselves, or limited him in any way. They just protect their own, like a lot of governments do.
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Jan 13, 2018 03:56
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France is really sticking it to the USA by letting the convicted pedophile loose on their own streets, because the USA has the death penalty.
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Jan 13, 2018 05:12
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GORDON posted:France is really sticking it to the USA by letting the convicted pedophile loose on their own streets, because the USA has the death penalty. Those bastards!
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Jan 13, 2018 05:16
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Snowman_McK posted:Holding up France's actions as any kind of moral stand is bollocks, because it's not like they've prosecuted him themselves, or limited him in any way. They just protect their own, like a lot of governments do. I'm starting to think you Americans don't get how rule of law is supposed to work.
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Jan 13, 2018 06:26
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MiddleOne posted:I'm starting to think you Americans don't get how rule of law is supposed to work. I feel caught between a rock and a hard place in that I hate America but also child rapists
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Jan 13, 2018 07:01
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21 Muns posted:I feel caught between a rock and a hard place in that I hate America but also child rapists me irl e: I think France is right in keeping him, if there's precedent/they refuse to extradite any citizen to a country with the dealth penalty, even for non death penalty crimes. The death penalty is terrible and needs to go away everywhere. On the other hand, Polanski admitted to being a child rapist so esperterra fucked around with this message at 08:06 on Jan 13, 2018 |
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Jan 13, 2018 08:03
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Yeah, let's be clear, Polanski is sub-human scum but America is just a broken clock in this case. It's a sexually repressed, puritanical right-wing shithole that breaks into foaming-at-the-mouth hysterics just from being flashed a nipple on tv, while not even blinking at the Khmer Rouge levels of ultra-violence and gore that permeates its media (and real life actions, internationally). The fact that its endless moral panicking, mass hysteria, and love affair with witch-hunts occasionally targets the right people with their cartoonishly medieval "justice" system doesn't make the country any less of an Idiocracy-level garbage fire.
-Blackadder- fucked around with this message at 11:16 on Jan 13, 2018 |
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Jan 13, 2018 08:52
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How is your exaggeration of the actual condition of the US any better than the moral panicking you accuse it of, you hypocrite?
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Jan 13, 2018 14:48
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https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1769957739689557&id=162172567134757 Eliza Dushku was molested by a stunt coordinator as a 12 year old El Gallinero Gros fucked around with this message at 16:27 on Jan 13, 2018 |
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Jan 13, 2018 16:22
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El Gallinero Gros posted:https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1769957739689557&id=162172567134757 God, how terrible. Looking at his IMDB page, Kramer has been consistently working since the alleged event took place. He was a stunt coordinator on Blade Runner 2049 just last year. A lot of the films on his resume have kids involved. I wonder if the "tough adult female friend" was Jamie Lee Curtis.
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Jan 13, 2018 17:11
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Fart City posted:I wonder if the "tough adult female friend" was Jamie Lee Curtis. The wording makes it seem like the friend came to visit the set specifically to confront Kramer, not that she was another actress in the movie.
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Jan 13, 2018 17:16
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Basebf555 posted:The wording makes it seem like the friend came to visit the set specifically to confront Kramer, not that she was another actress in the movie. Yeah it says specifically that she came out to set to visit. And Jesus Christ those replies. So quick to say "Yeah this is awful but lets talk about your parents...."
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Jan 13, 2018 19:38
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