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Drone_Fragger posted:And given it's under a mile of granite (and most nuclear weapons air-burst for maximum damage) it would be very difficult to blow "through" the mountain unless they'd developed some kind of insane penetrating warhead. Insane penetrating warhead, you say? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B61_nuclear_bomb#Mod_12 http://www.lasg.org/videos/B61-12_SAND8928_2015.mp4 (skip to about 2:50) A site buried under a mile of granite is about as secure as you can get, but ramming a 350-kiloton warhead fifty feet under the surface before detonation goes a long way to digging it up. I'm sure the Russians already have something similar.
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Jan 14, 2018 19:40
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At that point, I imagine it's easier to take control of the area surrounding the entrance/exit and just drive the warhead to the front door in a truck.
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Jan 14, 2018 20:02
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The map that goes around the internet based on the full extent of the soviet arsenal shows that if every ICBM made it out of the silo or sub (in retrospect this is painted as a big if as depending who you asked there was never effective ICBM maintenance) there was plenty of yield to excavate Washington DC, Cheyenne Mountain, and other suspected underground facilities like strategic resource dumps etc. just by inefficient ground strikes. The brinksmanship was pretty intense, but also its a bit of a facetious analysis because even ignoring maintenance issues, the other piece of nuclear war is you have to assume some fraction of your reserve is going to get hosed before even launching in a first strike and the excavation targets would be the first to be ignored in favor of just erasing the military and economy first.
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Jan 14, 2018 20:14
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Plus the goal is only to survive long enough to shoot back, not actually survive survive.
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Jan 14, 2018 20:44
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Theoretically whoever gets hit first will suffer fewer civilian casualties and infrastructure damage because their enemy will be trying a primarily counter-force attack focusing on military targets to destroy missiles/bombers before they can launch and submarines before they can sail. So with the degradation of military capabilities, the target nation will switch to causing as much damage as possible with whatever they have left, and target more cities and infrastructure. For example, outside of Portland and some bridges/dams along the northern border, Oregon is barely touched in a counter-force attack, while in a counter-value attack there are more missiles hitting Portland and Salem, and Medford eats a nuke because it's got a international airport, I-5 goes through it and IIRC is a junction for oil and gas pipelines going north and south. 
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Jan 14, 2018 21:05
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Oh, They didn't need to survive to shoot back. The USA has a similar system. For some reason I though it was called 'Spoilsport', but nope, just has a boring vaguely related title. It's like mankind was (and still is) in the grips of some collective mental disorder.
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Jan 14, 2018 21:11
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It's all academic because if the nukes ever go, a statistically significant value of Everyone is gonna die on an extremely accelerated timeline storm drain chat: used to dam up a drainage ditch off a new subdivision construction site that led into a giant culvert/storm pipe thing just like the kids in It and got yelled at repeatedly not because it was dangerous (it was) but because we were stealing scraps out of the dumpsters. Which was also dangerous.
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Jan 14, 2018 21:15
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Anger over dumpster diving always confused me. (As long as they don't leave a mess behind.) I mean, they've tossed it out on the curb(literally or figuratively) but the moment someone goes "Hey, I can use that", the butthurt is suddenly real.
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Jan 14, 2018 21:36
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Moto42 posted:Anger over dumpster diving always confused me. (As long as they don't leave a mess behind.) America Runs On Spite™
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Jan 14, 2018 21:41
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Ol Standard Retard posted:It's all academic because if the nukes ever go, a statistically significant value of Everyone is gonna die on an extremely accelerated timeline I thought this was the point of MAD. They were making sure nobody could have a chance of surviving a nuclear exchange so they would be discouraged from striking first.
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Jan 14, 2018 21:58
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General Specific posted:I thought this was the point of MAD. They were making sure nobody could have a chance of surviving a nuclear exchange so they would be discouraged from striking first. More or less, though the threat of worldwide annihilation wasn't the original strategy. MAD was originally about maintaining a balance of power -- ensuring that neither side gained enough of an advantage over the other that they started to think "hey, maybe we could destroy enough of their military in a sneak attack that they couldn't retaliate." That concept applies regardless of the weaponry used, and is fundamental to keeping detente in any conflict. The secondary idea that any exchange would kill nearly everyone on both sides only came around after both sides started building thousands of thermonuclear weapons.
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Jan 14, 2018 22:11
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Well it also evolved into the guarantee of universal death by virtue of the gradual accumulation of interconnected global supply chains underpinned by cheap fossil fuels being the only way to move enough calories into seven billion mouths. and all the other bits of logistics that create modern society. Essentially "we're all in this together" became literally true within the time span of nuclear weapons existing.
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Jan 14, 2018 22:17
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C.M. Kruger posted:Theoretically whoever gets hit first will suffer fewer civilian casualties and infrastructure damage because their enemy will be trying a primarily counter-force attack focusing on military targets to destroy missiles/bombers before they can launch and submarines before they can sail. So with the degradation of military capabilities, the target nation will switch to causing as much damage as possible with whatever they have left, and target more cities and infrastructure. i'll never not lol at the soviets thinking modesto was worth a nuke in 500 missile strike scenario, we already nuked it ourselves with meth guys
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Jan 14, 2018 23:07
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Ol Standard Retard posted:Well it also evolved into the guarantee of universal death by virtue of the gradual accumulation of interconnected global supply chains underpinned by cheap fossil fuels being the only way to move enough calories into seven billion mouths. and all the other bits of logistics that create modern society. Essentially "we're all in this together" became literally true within the time span of nuclear weapons existing. you must be fun at parties
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Jan 14, 2018 23:13
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[video="tom lehrer we'll all go together when we go"]
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Jan 14, 2018 23:20
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C.M. Kruger posted:Theoretically whoever gets hit first will suffer fewer civilian casualties and infrastructure damage because their enemy will be trying a primarily counter-force attack focusing on military targets to destroy missiles/bombers before they can launch and submarines before they can sail. So with the degradation of military capabilities, the target nation will switch to causing as much damage as possible with whatever they have left, and target more cities and infrastructure. alright, i give in, what's the deal with the large clumps of black in montana, south dakota, and the colorado/wyoming/nebraska border?
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Jan 14, 2018 23:24
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trapped mouse posted:alright, i give in, what's the deal with the large clumps of black in montana, south dakota, and the colorado/wyoming/nebraska border?
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Jan 14, 2018 23:25
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Those are our missile silos. Black dots are a first strike: the russians launch 2000 warheads, aiming to decapitate the american military and prevent retaliation. The targets are predominantly military bases and command and control systems. Major cities and infrastructure are preserved where possible, since the goal is an eventual invasion and occupation. Purple triangles are a retaliatory strike: the Americans have already hit the Russians and destroyed three quarters of their nuclear force on the ground. The American missile silos and air bases are empty. The Russian counterstrike is 500 warheads targeted at population centers, aiming to kill as many people as possible and destroy the american will to fight. Sagebrush fucked around with this message at 23:33 on Jan 14, 2018 |
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Jan 14, 2018 23:25
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trapped mouse posted:alright, i give in, what's the deal with the large clumps of black in montana, south dakota, and the colorado/wyoming/nebraska border? Missile silos
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Jan 14, 2018 23:26
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trapped mouse posted:alright, i give in, what's the deal with the large clumps of black in montana, south dakota, and the colorado/wyoming/nebraska border? Russians really hate the midwest.
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Jan 14, 2018 23:27
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fissle hilos
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Jan 14, 2018 23:27
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Is it safe?
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Jan 14, 2018 23:29
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Sagebrush posted:Those are our missile silos. So glad I live and work in a first strike zone, I definitely don't want to survive.
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Jan 14, 2018 23:33
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The general idea was to put missile silos in the most god-forsaken depopulated wasteland that no one would miss if they got attacked or if one of the nukes or missiles accidentally blew up.
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Jan 14, 2018 23:37
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I know it always gets brought up when the Damascus incident is mentioned, but Command and Control is a really good look at the nuttiness of the US nuke program, and that accident in particular.
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Jan 14, 2018 23:49
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Also, locating the silos in the center of the continent put them out of the reach of bomber-delivered weapons and early SLBMs, forcing the Russians to use an expensive ICBM of their own to attack the site. There was a decent period of detente when both sides had all single-warhead ICBMs located in remote places, because it was pretty much a 1:1 trade-off -- one of our missiles to destroy one of yours. Then one side invented MIRVs (not sure who actually fielded them first) and now one of my missiles can destroy three or five or ten of yours, and that started another massive race and Reagan got elected and it was a statistically impossible miracle that we survived the 1980s
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Jan 14, 2018 23:49
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Ceiling fan posted:The general idea was to put missile silos in the most god-forsaken depopulated wasteland that no one would miss if they got attacked or if one of the nukes or missiles accidentally blew up. Everyone should read Command and Control: Nuclear Weapons, the Damascus Accident, and the Illusion of Safety. The most important part of that title is at the end. The number of times that poo poo nearly kicked off due to rank incompetence and fevered egos was staggering. This is my all-time favourite passage, from an incident that happend on October 5th, 1969. quote:At Homestead Air Force Base in Florida, thirty-five members of an Army unit were arrested for using and selling marijuana and LSD. The unit controlled the Nike Hercules antiaircraft missiles on the base, along with their nuclear warheads. The drug use at Homestead was suspected after a fully armed Russian MiG-17 fighter plane, flown by a Cuban defector, landed there unchallenged, while Air Force One was parked on a nearby runway.
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Jan 14, 2018 23:54
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https://twitter.com/yogthos/status/951905438727057408
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Jan 15, 2018 00:01
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Moto42 posted:Anger over dumpster diving always confused me. (As long as they don't leave a mess behind.) It's less that and more that its a dumpster for a CONSTRUCTION site. I am all for scavenging and recycling but you do NOT want people loving around a construction site dumpster. Someone gets hosed up, it's on YOUR rear end.
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Jan 15, 2018 00:11
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Memento posted:Everyone should read Command and Control: Nuclear Weapons, the Damascus Accident, and the Illusion of Safety. I think I want the nuke guys to be smoking weed. Make sure they're chilled out. Maybe not acid though.
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Jan 15, 2018 01:16
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Memento posted:Everyone should read Command and Control: Nuclear Weapons, the Damascus Accident, and the Illusion of Safety. To be fair, firing a nuclear-tipped surface-to-air missile (designed to be used against a whole formation of Soviet bombers) at a single MiG-17 coming out of Cuba would probably have instantly started World War 3.
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Jan 15, 2018 01:35
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Johnny Aztec posted:It's less that and more that its a dumpster for a CONSTRUCTION site. Can't speak to all sites, but I knew one firm would have a hopper for metal offcuts and swarf which would be sold to scrappers on a regular basis; just because it's in what looks like a bin doesn't mean it's valueless garbage to the people that put it there.
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Jan 15, 2018 02:00
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Memento posted:Everyone should read Command and Control: Nuclear Weapons, the Damascus Accident, and the Illusion of Safety. Have it on my kindle somewhere but haven't gotten around to reading it yet. PBS made a good documentary, looks like you have to pay to watch it right now though https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7Sg0NTEivE
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Jan 15, 2018 02:11
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jamal posted:Have it on my kindle somewhere but haven't gotten around to reading it yet. It's on Netflix, if anyone wants to watch it
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Jan 15, 2018 02:20
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Memento posted:Everyone should read Command and Control: Nuclear Weapons, the Damascus Accident, and the Illusion of Safety. climbing from the cockpit the Cuban defector is seized by an airman who shakes him wildly and shouts "have you tried LSD?!"
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Jan 15, 2018 02:33
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Sagebrush posted:To be fair, firing a nuclear-tipped surface-to-air missile (designed to be used against a whole formation of Soviet bombers) at a single MiG-17 coming out of Cuba would probably have instantly started World War 3. Sure, but I would want my dudes who are responsible for that to, I dunno, at least radio the guy as he's coming in to land and then meet him on the runway to see what's going on. It's less about them letting a nuke go at someone and more about them being vaguely competent while they're in control of said nukes. Edit: ^ fuckin' 
Memento fucked around with this message at 02:51 on Jan 15, 2018 |
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Jan 15, 2018 02:33
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if you hurt yourself dumpster diving, you're going to sue the dumpster owner
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Jan 15, 2018 02:39
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C.M. Kruger posted:climbing from the cockpit the Cuban defector is seized by an airman who shakes him wildly and shouts "have you tried LSD?!" lmao
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Jan 15, 2018 02:39
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jamal posted:Have it on my kindle somewhere but haven't gotten around to reading it yet. Just search a bit more. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YiecixAsm8w
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Jan 15, 2018 02:45
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https://twitter.com/Aviationdailyy/status/952473924335558656
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