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Inescapable Duck posted:I still think that romantic comedies and romance subplots hosed up people's ideas of relationships at least as much as porn. Probably moreso, really
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Jan 16, 2018 18:44
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21 Muns posted:Has Aziz Ansari (dumb name by the way, loving alliteration) faced any actual consequences yet? Nah. He likely won't other than reputational harm.
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Jan 16, 2018 18:45
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khwarezm posted:If you're trying to engage with this in non-disingenuous way then shut up about wine, god. Q: What do u call it when a chick complains about a bad date and fills her tale with superfluous and emotional tidbits? A: White wine.
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Jan 16, 2018 19:02
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21 Muns posted:Has Aziz Ansari (dumb name by the way, loving alliteration) faced any actual consequences yet? The only consequence so far has been people saying you are racist if you believe the accusations
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Jan 16, 2018 19:09
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Uncle Boogeyman posted:Probably moreso, really With the Ansari allegations they're particularly relevant, because as we've seen every single attempt to discredit the claims fall back on a fantasy that there exists this "code" of conduct that the claimant should have been wise to: 'Being invited back to a guy's apartment to Netflix-and-chill is code for 'let's somehow or other have sex,' if you didn't want to go further you shouldn't have performed oral sex, you should have just gotten up and left, etc. Merely the fact that we find ourselves speaking in terms of "code" points up the central crisis of patriarchal masculinity, which is that men (and women by extension as objects of desire) are educated to treat sex as this matter that must be treated in "code." That merely the word "code" implies that you are trying to obscure something, not to actually make your motivations clear, is completely glossed over, because we begin with the presumption that women are either disingenuous or emotionally repressed, and that therefore men are entitled by whatever means necessary to engage with them sexually. Which is to say, nothing that Ansari is alleged to have done falls outside of the spectrum of behaviors that are conventionally coded as seduction. Except "seduction" is revealed to be this sociocultural fantasy, a "coded" version of what is actually just straightforwardly predatory behavior - aggressively and relentlessly prodding a woman until she relents in some fashion to be used as a sexual object. In this context, reactionary commentary immediately regresses to the question of legal consent, when the whole point of the narrative is that consent is given, but under conditions that are inherently dehumanizing, and to which the predatory aggressor is unconscious because he already accepts these conditions as natural. We're reaching a critical point in the collective conversation about patriarchal coercion of women (to say nothing of queer and non-binary groups) where it's no longer a question of the consent of the individual, but of the ideological systems that render relationships between men and women inherently coercive.
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Jan 16, 2018 19:12
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Yeah, dating blows.
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Jan 16, 2018 19:15
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The Ansari allegations should open up larger conduct about people making sexual intentions or refusal clear and *when* to back off, but people are incapable of nuance and are either full defense or full offense on this. It mainly still centers around issues with the patriarchy as men being forced more often to be sexual aggressors and taught by nothing but movies and TV and women being taught to be non direct and submissive creates a ton of issues where both parties are communicating differently and don't know what the hell is going on. The onus falls on the aggressor to not keep pushing stuff after someone backs off - but then a lot of men have experience with being told they weren't aggressive *enough* from women and that she wanted them to read their mind and try harder which even further confuses things. Ansari is wrong for being too persistent and seemingly doing a horrible job of reading body language and intention, and the fact that practically every guy over 21 that has attempted to have casual sex with a woman (and also a lot of women do similar with men, just not the same ratio) has done stuff like this makes it a huge thing that could possibly be explored and actually improved if an actual dialogue would start, but...people. Darko fucked around with this message at 20:18 on Jan 16, 2018 |
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Jan 16, 2018 19:47
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I've read a few opinion pieces that speak out against the babe.net piece. Some of it is reductive, some of it is worth reading. I think the Guardian piece is important, though it's a bit of a mess to read. Washington Post: "Babe’s Aziz Ansari piece was a gift to anyone who wants to derail #MeToo" quote:I would suggest there’s a reason this story appeared in babe, rather than the New York Times or BuzzFeed or the Los Angeles Times or, yes, The Washington Post. One of the reasons is that, however Grace now thinks of the encounter, what happened isn’t sexual assault or anything close to it by most legal or common-sense standards. And bad dates — including terrible ones that leave one person feeling humiliated — aren’t actually newsworthy, even when they happen to famous people. New York Times: "Aziz Ansari Is Guilty. Of Not Being a Mind Reader." quote:Aziz Ansari sounds like he was aggressive and selfish and obnoxious that night. Isn’t it heartbreaking and depressing that men — especially ones who present themselves publicly as feminists — so often act this way in private? Shouldn’t we try to change our broken sexual culture? And isn’t it enraging that women are socialized to be docile and accommodating and to put men’s desires before their own? Yes. Yes. Yes. The Guardian: "The poorly reported Aziz Ansari exposé was a missed opportunity" quote:What we haven’t touched on nearly as thoroughly is heterosexual sex for women in a society that still sees sex as primarily about male pleasure; that continues to position women’s bodies as sexual objects, receptacles and stand-ins for sex itself; and that encourages sexual aggressiveness in men and congeniality and passivity in women
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Jan 16, 2018 20:10
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I was a little on the fence about this but hadn't read the accusation until now. Having just read it maybe I'd be sympathetic to Ansari for the first part of the story but once she actively tells him to slow down and stop not once but twice and he keeps pushing I'm comfortable calling Ansari at the very least a gross creeper.
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Jan 16, 2018 20:13
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dont even fink about it posted:I think the quintessential unsafe set story is the Vic Morrow helicopter incident.
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Jan 16, 2018 20:20
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STAC Goat posted:once she actively tells him to slow down and stop not once but twice and he keeps pushing I'm comfortable calling Ansari at the very least a gross creeper. I mean, he groped her within moments of getting into his apartment, kept trying to shove his fingers in her mouth and then immediately into her vagina, continued to do so repeatedly for a half-hour after she made it clear she wasn't interested, sat naked in front of her pointing at his junk until she went down on him, then pushed his naked dick against her after forcefully bending her over a counter and asking if she wanted him to gently caress her there, then kept trying to undo her pants on the couch. To me that's more than "gross creeper."
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Jan 16, 2018 20:21
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Well I said "at the very least." I'm not sure I personally can identify exactly what he did there with the somewhat confusing "mixed signals" but I'm sure as gently caress not going to go to bat for that gross creeper who kept trying to turn a no into a yes with his fingers and dick. So if you wanna call him something worse I'm not gonna fight.
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Jan 16, 2018 20:24
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Vegetable posted:I've read a few opinion pieces that speak out against the babe.net piece. Some of it is reductive, some of it is worth reading. I think the Guardian piece is important, though it's a bit of a mess to read. Written, in order, by the absolutely execrable Sonny Bunch, Bari Weiss and Jill Filipovich. gently caress all three of them.
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Jan 16, 2018 20:25
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Knowing nothing of babe.com before the Ansari story, I would have put money on it being a porn site Babe.com
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Jan 16, 2018 20:31
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It's actually about pigs
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Jan 16, 2018 20:37
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This whole thing reminds me of something that I heard asked when the Weinstein-Spacey stuff was coming rapid fire: what happens when it’s someone that people like? Generally speaking, Aziz Ansari is a popular guy. And popular in a way that Louis C.K. or other disgraced men have not been. He’s generally been viewed as a “safe” entity in Hollywood thanks to the feministic leanings presented in his stage sets, the inclusive style of Master Of None, not to mention having his first major mainstream break came from a show produced by Amy Pohler of all people. It feels like there’s less of a broad condemnation for this situation than what we’ve seen previously. I suppose that might change if it proves that this isn’t an isolated event. But the amount of thinkpieces being published about this suggests that there is perhaps a greater struggle with the situation than usual.
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Jan 16, 2018 20:44
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Adding to the list of opinion pieces above, a video criticizing the babe.net piece has been popping up all over. It's by a contributor to HLN, which I now know is a part of CNN rather than a cheap YouTube knockoff of cable news channels. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y4bAULTwAJU It's a bit disingenuous and reads like it was engineered to go viral. But it's part of a broader backlash.
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Jan 16, 2018 20:54
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I don't think it's so much that Ansari's well liked, I think it's that it's a far more ambiguous situation going by the given story, and it's bringing all the "witch hunt/slipper slope!" folks out in confidence. I know I'm having a lot of difficult formulating an opinion on this story. Every time I try to put down something coherent, I find myself using a lovely term like "mixed signals" and delete the whole thing.
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Jan 16, 2018 20:59
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Ashleigh Banfield used to do some hard-hitting work (I remember like 15 years ago, she took pretty much the entire mass media, including her bosses at NBC, to task for eagerly lapping up the Bush administration's propaganda over the invasion and occupation of Iraq, and she never lost her cool even as Tower 7 was literally collapsing behind her), but she basically became a sensationalist along the lines of Nancy Grace when she went to work for HLN.
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Jan 16, 2018 21:03
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davidspackage posted:I know I'm having a lot of difficult formulating an opinion on this story. Every time I try to put down something coherent, I find myself using a lovely term like "mixed signals" and delete the whole thing. Maybe you're just struggling with the realization that you're a lovely person?
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Jan 16, 2018 21:04
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21 Muns posted:Maybe you're just struggling with the realization that you're a lovely person? This isn't helpful.
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Jan 16, 2018 21:25
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I think a lot of people are thinking "Well, it's not like he raped her! She's making a big deal over nothing," and then just leave it at that because Ansari's behavior is honestly really common, especially among younger guys. With Weinstein and people like that, it's somebody pretty much everyone can point to and recognize as an awful person. Like, a lot of guys can behave pretty terribly, but most of them are not actual serial rapists on the level of Weinstein. However, a lot of guys absolutely will act the way Ansari did in that piece: misread or ignore body language, badger their date for sex until she relents, use dumb moves they obviously learned from porn, and just generally act really desperate and pathetic. I think some people don't want to criticize Ansari because doing so would criticize a lot of "normal" guys who don't think of themselves as rapists or sexual harassers. I'm reminded of that study where men were asked if they had ever raped someone, and of course the vast majority said no. But when the language was changed to something a little less confrontational, such as "Have you ever pressured someone into sex or repeatedly asked them?", suddenly a whole lot more men were saying they had. Right now, a lot of this stuff has been focused on individuals, but locking the really bad guys away isn't actually going to solve the underlying issue here. People are willing to point to a guy like Weinstein and go on about how awful and disgusting and horrible he is, but most of them are not interested in reflecting on their own behavior in their everyday lives.
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Jan 16, 2018 21:25
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I mean, I want to make it clear I'm absolutely fine criticizing Ansari for his behavior. I think MAYBE (huge question on that) you could maybe argue "mixed signals" early on in the story and dismiss him as "aggressive" or "pushy". And I'd agree that that's a problem in itself. But once she's telling him "I don't want to" and he keeps making "advances" then I lose any and all sympathy I may possess from my younger less evolved days. And again, if you want to argue that the early stuff is wrong and any sympathy I have is just from my own messed up ideas of sex when I was younger I'd probably agree and hang my head with a fair amount of shame that while I can definitely say I never crossed a line into pushing sex I really can't be sure I never hit on a woman too much or pursued her in a way that made her uncomfortable.
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Jan 16, 2018 21:32
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21 Muns posted:Maybe you're just struggling with the realization that you're a lovely person? Everyone is a lovely person.
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Jan 16, 2018 21:43
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I'm betting at least some of the women defending Aziz are because they've been in similar uncomfortable situations and don't want to go down a path that means they have to admit to themselves they were sexually assaulted. And some of those situations might not be sexual assault, just people who can't communicate because US society is entirely stupid on sexuality and communications. This is way more nuanced than "bad man did bad thing" but it isn't something to be easily dismissed or rejected and the people who are doing that are doing just as much as a disservice as the people defending Weinstein et al. Add to that a mixture of clickbait titles and articles on both sides and you got yourself a messy stew. By not focusing on these accusations we are eliminating the potential for a discussion on consent that is needed, but also people will get very defensive about.
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Jan 16, 2018 22:33
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Aziz did nothing wrong.
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Jan 16, 2018 22:34
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Criticizing behavior and condemning the person is different. And there is a wide gulf of difference between being too pushy due to misreading body language or the mood or something (which is relateable for every guy that has to work their way through that stuff when young) and an older guy purposely threatening women over and over again for sex.
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Jan 16, 2018 22:34
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STAC Goat posted:I mean, I want to make it clear I'm absolutely fine criticizing Ansari for his behavior. I think MAYBE (huge question on that) you could maybe argue "mixed signals" early on in the story and dismiss him as "aggressive" or "pushy". And I'd agree that that's a problem in itself. But once she's telling him "I don't want to" and he keeps making "advances" then I lose any and all sympathy I may possess from my younger less evolved days. Practically every guy that isn't shy to the point of doing nothing and being completely passive all the time has, especially as you go back towards Gen X. At least some of us learned better over time. Edit, I mean some of our first exposure to relateable romance was drunken Elliot grabbing a classmate and forcing a kiss on her and her *liking it.* Darko fucked around with this message at 22:44 on Jan 16, 2018 |
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Jan 16, 2018 22:42
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Dr. S.O. Feelgood posted:I think a lot of people are thinking "Well, it's not like he raped her! She's making a big deal over nothing," and then just leave it at that because Ansari's behavior is honestly really common, especially among younger guys. With Weinstein and people like that, it's somebody pretty much everyone can point to and recognize as an awful person. Like, a lot of guys can behave pretty terribly, but most of them are not actual serial rapists on the level of Weinstein. However, a lot of guys absolutely will act the way Ansari did in that piece: misread or ignore body language, badger their date for sex until she relents, use dumb moves they obviously learned from porn, and just generally act really desperate and pathetic. I think some people don't want to criticize Ansari because doing so would criticize a lot of "normal" guys who don't think of themselves as rapists or sexual harassers. IMO any definition of rape that excludes what Ansari did is worthless and pushed by rape apologists.
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Jan 16, 2018 22:45
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the nyt article uses intersectionality as a reason that aziz is being treated unfairly, ignoring the aspects of not just being a celebrity but a noted feminist celebrity.
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Jan 16, 2018 22:54
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Tars Tarkas posted:I'm betting at least some of the women defending Aziz are because they've been in similar uncomfortable situations and don't want to go down a path that means they have to admit to themselves they were sexually assaulted. And some of those situations might not be sexual assault, just people who can't communicate because US society is entirely stupid on sexuality and communications. This is way more nuanced than "bad man did bad thing" but it isn't something to be easily dismissed or rejected and the people who are doing that are doing just as much as a disservice as the people defending Weinstein et al. Add to that a mixture of clickbait titles and articles on both sides and you got yourself a messy stew. By not focusing on these accusations we are eliminating the potential for a discussion on consent that is needed, but also people will get very defensive about. Yeah, I had the same feeling about some of the women defending him. Obviously, no one wants to say they've sexually assaulted someone, but there can be a lot of issues around admitting, even just to yourself, that you were assaulted or victimized in some way. That's what I don't get about people thinking these women are just making things up, they really don't realize how hard it can be say that you were a victim. And it is really exhausting having to put up with guys "figuring out" or "working through" how not to act like this. On the one hand, you're absolutely right that the US and many other places have severely hosed up ideas about relationships, dating, sex, communication, and a bunch of other things. So I can't exactly blame young people for absorbing and acting on this information that is presented to them every day. But it's really depressing that learning not to sexually harass or assault people is basically a growing up process for many men. And a lot of them never learn. If you're a woman, you basically have to just put up with it as a normal thing, because if you do speak out about it you risk getting the type of response this woman is getting. I guess this is why I'm not exactly optimistic about the long-term effects of this whole movement. I think it's great that so many abusers are getting outed, but these people don't just pop into existence. Even if all of these abusers/predators never work again, there will just be a new crop of them in the future.
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Jan 16, 2018 23:18
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Tars Tarkas posted:I'm betting at least some of the women defending Aziz are because they've been in similar uncomfortable situations and don't want to go down a path that means they have to admit to themselves they were sexually assaulted. And some of those situations might not be sexual assault, just people who can't communicate because US society is entirely stupid on sexuality and communications. This is way more nuanced than "bad man did bad thing" but it isn't something to be easily dismissed or rejected and the people who are doing that are doing just as much as a disservice as the people defending Weinstein et al. Add to that a mixture of clickbait titles and articles on both sides and you got yourself a messy stew. By not focusing on these accusations we are eliminating the potential for a discussion on consent that is needed, but also people will get very defensive about. Not to defend old Aziz, but a friend of mine doesn't like the idea of calling what he did sexual assault because she was sexually assaulted in a much more violent way and she thinks it diminishes the term.
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Jan 16, 2018 23:23
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porfiria posted:Not to defend old Aziz, but a friend of mine doesn't like the idea of calling what he did sexual assault because she was sexually assaulted in a much more violent way and she thinks it diminishes the term. how does she feel about the term "super sexually assaulted"? She could really use that to differentiate if she's that determined. like, a woman who gets coerced into having sex she doesn't want by a man with more power than her, a woman who gets drugged, and a woman who is violently raped are all rape victims, but i think we can all agree that if the latter said that she didn't like calling the former two "rape" because it devalues what happened to her would be rebuffed.
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Jan 16, 2018 23:36
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Lmao. This is FTW.
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Jan 16, 2018 23:36
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porfiria posted:Not to defend old Aziz, but a friend of mine doesn't like the idea of calling what he did sexual assault because she was sexually assaulted in a much more violent way and she thinks it diminishes the term. Dr. S.O. Feelgood posted:Yeah, I had the same feeling about some of the women defending him. Obviously, no one wants to say they've sexually assaulted someone, but there can be a lot of issues around admitting, even just to yourself, that you were assaulted or victimized in some way. That's what I don't get about people thinking these women are just making things up, they really don't realize how hard it can be say that you were a victim. I don't like that term either, but I also recognize that a lot of people come from places where some of this is encouraged, where sleeping with women is just a numbers game and you need to get high score to prove you are a man, and some guys will do whatever it takes because they think they are entitled to it. There just isn't good answers. I think there is a path of redemption for people, but far too often that is abused by the very people who were hiding behind being woke feminists or what not. So any thing that does happen will look suspicious at best and cynical at worst. I do agree that there will just be a new crop of bad people in a few years, but hopefully things have shifted enough that many of them don't become entrenched power brokers. I'm not going to hold my breath, heck right now there are people who did bad things who are slipping through the cracks because the other names are getting the press. It will probably be easier to deny things once the big wave is over. And we still have a sex criminal as a sitting president...
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Jan 16, 2018 23:49
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The Aziz thing is different though because it's not workplace related and, as far as I can tell, was dealt with privately. He was a lovely person, she told him and he apologised. His apology was rubbish, but the matter was resolved. He didn't do anything illegal. The only backlash he should receive is a hit to his reputation and a chance to change his behaviour and learn from this public shaming. Because that's what this is. It's a public shaming. That's why it's different to Me too and why most people are struggling with it The fact that babe.com did a terrible, rambling, amateur job of reporting it doesn't help.
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Jan 17, 2018 00:13
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Aziz Imsorry
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Jan 17, 2018 00:31
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PriorMarcus posted:The Aziz thing is different though because it's not workplace related and, as far as I can tell, was dealt with privately. He was a lovely person, she told him and he apologised. His apology was rubbish, but the matter was resolved. He didn't do anything illegal. I’m sure Graham Norton will do a much better job
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Jan 17, 2018 00:34
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GonSmithe posted:I’m sure Graham Norton will do a much better job Hmmm... I'm not sure how I'm meant to read that. Maybe I'm on edge because it's a very difficult subject.
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Jan 17, 2018 00:38
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My point is is that calling it “public shaming” and that the article “was reported terribly” is idiotic. It’s being mentioned because it shows what some men think is a “normal” sexual encounter. It is not antithetic to the MeToo movement because allowing culture to grow where what he did seems okay to someone is the entire point of the movement. It’s not okay.
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Jan 17, 2018 00:42
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