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Origami Dali
Jan 7, 2005

Get ready to fuck!
You fucker's fucker!
You fucker!
If Aziz did nothing wrong, then neither did Louis CK.

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PriorMarcus
Oct 17, 2008

ASK ME ABOUT BEING ALLERGIC TO POSITIVITY

GonSmithe posted:

My point is is that calling it “public shaming” and that the article “was reported terribly” is idiotic.

It’s being mentioned because it shows what some men think is a “normal” sexual encounter. It is not antithetic to the MeToo movement because allowing culture to grow where what he did seems okay to someone is the entire point of the movement. It’s not okay.

Okay.

I don't really think my work history is a worthwhile rebuttal of my opinion but thanks for explaining your side.

To me, MeToo seems less inclusive of everyone's stories and more specifically industry driven and Hollywood insider focused.

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

Watching you sleep.

Butt first, let's
check the feeds.

GonSmithe posted:

My point is is that calling it “public shaming” and that the article “was reported terribly” is idiotic.

It’s being mentioned because it shows what some men think is a “normal” sexual encounter. It is not antithetic to the MeToo movement because allowing culture to grow where what he did seems okay to someone is the entire point of the movement. It’s not okay.

Maybe I'm wrong but I read the OP as suggesting that there's probably different levels of "punishment" in this. Individuals who commit crimes should be brought to justice. Individuals who abuse power should be stripped of that power. And individuals who treat women poorly without the power or legal stuff in play should be publicly shamed to force them to change their behavior and for other men to see that its not the right way to act. And that in the big picture while getting predators out of power and abusers in prison are both good goals the bigger picture goal is probably to convince a culture to change their ways and that probably happens through shaming them that they're bad now.

wizardofloneliness
Dec 30, 2008

porfiria posted:

Not to defend old Aziz, but a friend of mine doesn't like the idea of calling what he did sexual assault because she was sexually assaulted in a much more violent way and she thinks it diminishes the term.

I really do not like this line of thinking at all. What would she call it instead? I don't want to call out your friend over it since I can see where she's coming from, but it's kind of lovely. There's pretty much always going to be someone who has dealt with something worse than you, regardless of what happened. I'm sure your friend would probably be pretty pissed off if someone who had had an even more violent assault told her that her experience didn't count because it wasn't as bad as what she had to deal with, and she would have every right to be angry. If you follow this line of thinking, only the person who has had the absolute worst experience would count, and how would you even determine that?

Like Tars Tarkas said, I can't fully blame someone who thinks like this though. I don't know the specifics of what happened to your friend, but if you are someone who is violently sexually assaulted by some non-famous person, there's a good chance no one is going to give a poo poo or do anything about it. Especially if you're not white. So then someone else comes along and describes an experience with a celebrity that is bad, but not as bad as yours, and now all of a sudden (some) people care and are talking about it. Meanwhile, most people continue to ignore what happened to you. There's a ton of people who have been failed in this way, so I can't really fault someone for having that opinion, even if I think it ultimately contributes to the problem.

Not Operator
Jan 1, 2009

Not A doctor, THE Doctor!
All I can think is like eight months ago in the Misogynoir thread, Aziz came up and within two posts someone said his on-stage feminism gave them the impression of someone who probably feels a sense of sexual entitlement.

I thought it felt unfair at the time, but sexually entitled is really the perfect description of the guy in that story.

PriorMarcus
Oct 17, 2008

ASK ME ABOUT BEING ALLERGIC TO POSITIVITY

STAC Goat posted:

Maybe I'm wrong but I read the OP as suggesting that there's probably different levels of "punishment" in this. Individuals who commit crimes should be brought to justice. Individuals who abuse power should be stripped of that power. And individuals who treat women poorly without the power or legal stuff in play should be publicly shamed to force them to change their behavior and for other men to see that its not the right way to act. And that in the big picture while getting predators out of power and abusers in prison are both good goals the bigger picture goal is probably to convince a culture to change their ways and that probably happens through shaming them that they're bad now.

This is my point.

Because I think Aziz is getting the punishment he deserves. It's tarnishing his brand because it's very off-brand for him, and he's been publically made aware that this behaviour is not okay.

But that's it.

Some one was asking when Netflix will remove Master of None but is that really necessary? Because his crime has nothing to do with the work place or power dynamics inside the industry.

Also, ignoring the fact that I've worked for The Graham Norton Show (which might not be hard hitting journalism but has won 18 BAFTA awards) I don't think it's unfair to say that a lot of places would've done a better job with the story than babe.com did.

Magic Hate Ball
May 6, 2007

ha ha ha!
you've already paid for this

Inescapable Duck posted:

I still think that romantic comedies and romance subplots hosed up people's ideas of relationships at least as much as porn.

Every time I have to sort the comedy DVD section at work I feel gross because they're all movies that promote absolutely horrible cultural standards and "man wants to gently caress and woman has to be pressured or coerced" is easily one of the most prevalent sexual threads.

Gorn Myson
Aug 8, 2007






The Graham Norton Show loving owns, leave off

MMD3
May 16, 2006

Montmartre -> Portland
like 6+ years ago I had an encounter with Aziz that made me go wow that guy is a douche and totally full of himself. It was a bummer because I had been a fan of his standup for a bit but it was before he'd broken really really big. I've been a huge fan of Master of None and it was tricky to reconcile the short interaction I had with him with his character on the show but something has never sit quite right with me with him ever since.

That being said, I see both sides of this, I do think there's value to exposing even stories like this for the benefit of progress but I would be pretty disappointed if his career was somehow ruined because of what was reported in that article. I do think there's something interesting in the NYT article and it seems difficult to fathom that someone going on a date with a celebrity who has a show where he talks openly about his dating life (and even depicts himself hooking up with tinder dates) would be surprised when they end up at his place and he tries to take things to the bedroom... You should probably be mentally prepared to stop things or ask to move slower if you're a 20-something dating in NYC right? I dunno, maybe I'm wrong here but I felt that that part of the NYT article made a valid argument.

GrandpaPants
Feb 13, 2006


Free to roam the heavens in man's noble quest to investigate the weirdness of the universe!

MMD3 posted:

You should probably be mentally prepared to stop things or ask to move slower if you're a 20-something dating in NYC right?

Or the message can be to not be a loving creep.

Keeshhound
Jan 14, 2010

Mad Duck Swagger

MMD3 posted:

You should probably be mentally prepared to stop things or ask to move slower if you're a 20-something dating in NYC right? I dunno, maybe I'm wrong here but I felt that that part of the NYT article made a valid argument.

You should probably read the babe article.

Magic Hate Ball
May 6, 2007

ha ha ha!
you've already paid for this
It’s going to scan as disagreeable but normal behavior to a lot of people, who will dismiss the complaint as blown-up needy hysteria without stopping to consider what it means that it’s normal behavior.

GORDON
Jan 1, 2006

by Fluffdaddy
She never said "no," nor, "stop." One presumes English is her first language, and that she's a grown-up.

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

GonSmithe
Apr 25, 2010

Perhaps it's in the nature of television. Just waves in space.

GORDON posted:

She never said "no," nor, "stop." One presumes English is her first language, and that she's a grown-up.

“Whoa, let’s relax for a sec, let’s chill.”
“He really kept doing it after I moved it away”
“It was 30 minutes of me getting up and moving and him following and sticking his fingers down my throat again.”
“Most of my discomfort was expressed in me pulling away and mumbling.”
“I know I was physically giving off cues that I wasn’t interested.”
Etc.

Just because she is in a position where she might not feel comfortable straight up saying the word “no” doesn’t mean she’s “not a grown up” or deserves to still have him sexually advance on her.

poo poo like this is exactly the issue. “Well she didn’t SAY no” is some reductive, rapist poo poo.

peer
Jan 17, 2004

this is not what I wanted
“I said something like, ‘Whoa, let’s relax for a sec, let’s chill.’

“He probably moved my hand to his dick five to seven times,” she said. “He really kept doing it after I moved it away.”

“It was 30 minutes of me getting up and moving and him following and sticking his fingers down my throat again."

"“After he bent me over is when I stood up and said no, I don’t think I’m ready to do this, I really don’t think I’m going to do this."

yeah how could he POSSIBLY have known that she wasn't into it??? After all she apparently only said "no" a single time


edit: gently caress!!!

Snowman_McK
Jan 31, 2010

Steve2911 posted:

Nah. He likely won't other than reputational harm.

Almost no one ever does. I mean, it has to be a flood of really horrible allegations for anything to actually happen, yet somehow the idea that 'we have to be careful, because false accusations can ruin a career' persists. Even though it's hard enough for real allegations to do any damage.

Timeless Appeal
May 28, 2006

Babe posted:

Grace says she spent around five minutes in the bathroom, collecting herself in the mirror and splashing herself with water. Then she went back to Ansari. He asked her if she was okay. “I said I don’t want to feel forced because then I’ll hate you, and I’d rather not hate you,” she said.

The notion that she did not give a clear verbal cue for him to stop is bullshit.

twerking on the railroad
Jun 23, 2007

Get on my level

GonSmithe posted:

My point is is that calling it “public shaming” and that the article “was reported terribly” is idiotic.

A public shaming can be a good thing, but... Of course it's a public shaming. I mean, duh. Grace said she's doing it now because he won the golden globe with a times up button on. She wants to shame him because he's not who he was pretending to be.

Magic Hate Ball
May 6, 2007

ha ha ha!
you've already paid for this

Timeless Appeal posted:

The notion that she did not give a clear verbal cue for him to stop is bullshit.

Yeah I hate that take. She:

-Repeatedly pulls away
-Gets up and moves
-Says "I don't want to feel forced"
-Goes quiet and still
-Says "I really don't think I'm going to do this"
-And finally turns away and says "you guys are all the loving same"

Mystery and intrigue in flirting can be fun but if you're gonna gently caress someone you need to preface it with "do you want to" and then check in with them throughout. It's not difficult but our culture is so obsessed with this weird concept of horny ESP that we've managed to convince ourselves the state of "just knowing" is essential, which leads to a situation like this, where one party assumes the other wants to gently caress, and then aggressively pretends like that's true.

Magic Hate Ball fucked around with this message at 03:02 on Jan 17, 2018

Timby
Dec 23, 2006

Your mother!

Magic Hate Ball posted:

Every time I have to sort the comedy DVD section at work I feel gross because they're all movies that promote absolutely horrible cultural standards and "man wants to gently caress and woman has to be pressured or coerced" is easily one of the most prevalent sexual threads.

Don't forget there was that Bill Nighy movie a while back (About Time?) in which Domnhall Gleeson travels back in time repeatedly to make a woman fall in love with him because in his present existence she wanted nothing to do with him. So many of my friends thought it was the sweetest goddamn thing.

Timby fucked around with this message at 02:54 on Jan 17, 2018

bad day
Mar 26, 2012

by VideoGames
I got curious about Babe.net and this internet publication dates back to Feb 2016, debuting with the listicle "How To Train A Fuckboy In 10 Easy Steps"

https://babe.net/2016/02/23/how-to-train-a-fuckboy-2251

precision
May 7, 2006

by VideoGames
I know extremes of thought are the hotness especially in the Twitter culture, but I think it's fair to say both "Aziz was being a pushy horny rear end in a top hat" and "She should have left earlier or not gotten naked or not gone down on him". That people who say the latter get tarred with the epithet "rapist apologist" is loving sickening. I've been raped. What happened to that woman was not rape.

The REAL Goobusters
Apr 25, 2008

MMD3 posted:

like 6+ years ago I had an encounter with Aziz that made me go wow that guy is a douche and totally full of himself. It was a bummer because I had been a fan of his standup for a bit but it was before he'd broken really really big. I've been a huge fan of Master of None and it was tricky to reconcile the short interaction I had with him with his character on the show but something has never sit quite right with me with him ever since.

That being said, I see both sides of this, I do think there's value to exposing even stories like this for the benefit of progress but I would be pretty disappointed if his career was somehow ruined because of what was reported in that article. I do think there's something interesting in the NYT article and it seems difficult to fathom that someone going on a date with a celebrity who has a show where he talks openly about his dating life (and even depicts himself hooking up with tinder dates) would be surprised when they end up at his place and he tries to take things to the bedroom... You should probably be mentally prepared to stop things or ask to move slower if you're a 20-something dating in NYC right? I dunno, maybe I'm wrong here but I felt that that part of the NYT article made a valid argument.

Same I met him twice in 2011 (at SXSW and then at NYC) and it really bummed me out. He later blew up with Parks And Rec but I never watched the show because of my interactions with him lol.

sponges
Sep 15, 2011

Well, what’s he do?

The REAL Goobusters
Apr 25, 2008

sponges posted:

Well, what’s he do?

I was like 19 and he lined up behind me and friends at this food truck at a fader music party. I was like oh hey dude I’m a big fan of your stand up all that or whatever and he was just super stand-off ish and was like bothered we even talked to him. My friends got a pic with and he was nice about that i guess but the interaction totally rubbed me the wrong way. Like this wasn’t the vip area, and I get that. But man like he came across as this arrogant rear end in a top hat lol. Like drat man I’m loving sorry I even talked to you, I’m just this star struck kid and it was like one of the first few times I’ve had in a big city.

2 weeks later I was at the “final” LCD sound system show at Madison square garden. When that show ended I was walking to the subway with a group of people and this guy behind us just goes “drat that show was loving AWESOME.”

I turned around and was like “hell yeah dude” and we both looked at each other and it was crazy awkward. Like he definitely recognized me as the guy he blew off and immediately him and his posse just turned right into the first alleyway.

Like the gently caress? Lol. One of the most surreal experiences of my life.

sponges
Sep 15, 2011

That sucks but at least he didn’t ram his fingers down your throat

Darko
Dec 23, 2004

Magic Hate Ball posted:

Yeah I hate that take. She:

-Repeatedly pulls away
-Gets up and moves
-Says "I don't want to feel forced"
-Goes quiet and still
-Says "I really don't think I'm going to do this"
-And finally turns away and says "you guys are all the loving same"

Some of this can go into perception by parties, especially when drinking is involved. As a slightly similar example I have good friends and an ex girlfriend who hooked up at one time, and her story to me was that they basically begged her to have sex and she finally gave in, their version was that she ran down the hall excitedly and jumped in their bed. I could see all kinds of scenarios where parties got different impressions or were not being exact or using hyperbole or whatever (since I knew the people involved), and in that case the only reason I took any side in the end was based said ex using similar hyperbole about others that she got busted on. And there are a million more examples I've seen of two differing details in a story about two people hooking up, especially having worked around service industry people that are always around alcohol and always hooking up with each other.

Nobody is denying that Aziz was being a shithead that was begging and harassing that should have quit by any account (and *this* is what people really need to learn), but a one-sided story like that *can* be missing important perspectives or information that the other perspective may shine a light on.

The REAL Goobusters
Apr 25, 2008

sponges posted:

That sucks but at least he didn’t ram his fingers down your throat

True

Made me believe that article tho lol

precision
May 7, 2006

by VideoGames

Darko posted:

Some of this can go into perception by parties, especially when drinking is involved. As a slightly similar example I have good friends and an ex girlfriend who hooked up at one time, and her story to me was that they basically begged her to have sex and she finally gave in, their version was that she ran down the hall excitedly and jumped in their bed. I could see all kinds of scenarios where parties got different impressions or were not being exact or using hyperbole or whatever (since I knew the people involved), and in that case the only reason I took any side in the end was based said ex using similar hyperbole about others that she got busted on. And there are a million more examples I've seen of two differing details in a story about two people hooking up, especially having worked around service industry people that are always around alcohol and always hooking up with each other.

Nobody is denying that Aziz was being a shithead that was begging and harassing that should have quit by any account (and *this* is what people really need to learn), but a one-sided story like that *can* be missing important perspectives or information that the other perspective may shine a light on.

Generally agree with this. Automatically believing the first person who talks about something is not really a great idea - not because the person might be lying, because that's a slope you don't want to slide down, but because humans are, well, human and memory - especially when alcohol or other drugs are involved - is never perfect.

One situation that happened to me, with a male friend, very closely resembles her story - in that, to me, it was bizarrely aggressive and should have been very clear to him that I wasn't having a good time (if my dick is limp and you can see that, maybe I'm not into what you're doing). When I talked to him about it later, he was aghast and dumbfounded, because in his mind the encounter was completely un-coerced and positive. And in that case, there wasn't even alcohol or drugs involved.

Magic Hate Ball
May 6, 2007

ha ha ha!
you've already paid for this
So are you describing a massive difference in perception or lying in a published article?

precision
May 7, 2006

by VideoGames

Magic Hate Ball posted:

So are you describing a massive difference in perception or lying in a published article?

I don't think she's lying, because I think her memories are genuine. I'm saying that perception and objective truth are very far apart sometimes.

ihatepants
Nov 5, 2011

Let the burning of pants commence. These things drive me nuts.



The conduct of whoever was interviewing her also has a chance unintentionally altering her memory or confirming a flawed recollection, much like what can happen during an interview by a lawyer or police officer. I’m not saying this happened, but that it’s possible. Especially since the interview was possibly more driven by the reporter than the victim, since it was said that the reporter hunted down Grace to talk about the story and not the other way around.

Also I agree with whoever called it “sexual entitlement”. I thought that was a perfect way to describe it.

VVVV: I want to be clear that believe her, too and do hope she’s doing alright. I’m just playing devil’s advocate.

ihatepants fucked around with this message at 05:38 on Jan 17, 2018

Yaws
Oct 23, 2013

I for one choose to believe Ansaris victim and I hope she's ok after getting raked over the coals in the media.

Rhyno
Mar 22, 2003
Probation
Can't post for 10 years!

Yaws posted:

I for one choose to believe Ansaris victim and I hope she's ok after getting raked over the coals in the media.

Same.

banned from Starbucks
Jul 18, 2004




Yaws posted:

I for one choose to believe Ansaris victim and I hope she's ok after getting raked over the coals in the media.

Noone even knows her name

Yaws
Oct 23, 2013

banned from Starbucks posted:

Noone even knows her name

It's nuts that she didn't want to give her name innit?

What a crazy mixed up world we live in!

Lovely Joe Stalin
Jun 12, 2007

Our Lovely Wang
As lovely as Ansari is, it is really unfortunate that his story seems to be eclipsing that of the highly ranked guy preying on literal children on-set.

banned from Starbucks
Jul 18, 2004




Yaws posted:

It's nuts that she didn't want to give her name innit?

What a crazy mixed up world we live in!

I agree its good she didnt give her name

Peaceful Anarchy
Sep 18, 2005
sXe
I am the math man.

Lovely Joe Stalin posted:

As lovely as Ansari is, it is really unfortunate that his story seems to be eclipsing that of the highly ranked guy preying on literal children on-set.
No it isn't. What happened to Dushku is undoubtedly worse, but it's something everyone knows is worse, it's gotten enough press to have consequences for the guy and hopefully there will be appropriate legal remedies. But the guy isn't well known outside the industry and everyone is aware that pedophiles exist so it's really not relevant to people who aren't directly involved beyond adding another drop in the bucket that yes sexual harassment and abuse of power exists.

This story, on the other hand, regardless of how you want to label it or what opinion you have on the matter, is something much more relatable to many people's experiences. As such the debate around it is less about Ansari himself (nearly everyone seems to agree his behaviour is creepy and wrong) and more about where exactly do we as a society draw the line on sexual assault and coercion. A good deal of people, for various reasons, are saying it's not rape but doing so in a way that still condemns his actions, which raise the question, are the actions criminal? Should they be? How should women react in such situations? How much awareness should men be expected to have in these situations? How aggressive is too aggressive? How will you act if you find yourself in this situation as either party? Not everyone is explicitly asking themselves these questions or debating them, but they're part of the conversation and implicit when people answer and when people read and react to other people's answers. If the goal is to build a better society then this kind of debate about what our society's shared values are when it comes to sex and gender and dating and power dynamics and all the surrounding issues is necessary. This one thing isn't going to make or break anything, but more people are going to self reflect and reconsider their behaviours in light of this story than a story about a pedophile stuntman or Weinstein's criminal behaviour precisely because it is not as important as a news item and not as clear cut a situation.

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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD
Sep 14, 2007

everything is yours

Lovely Joe Stalin posted:

As lovely as Ansari is, it is really unfortunate that his story seems to be eclipsing that of the highly ranked guy preying on literal children on-set.

Is it? The guy immediately suffered consequences, IMO what's being swept under the rug is the amount of people that likely knew and didn't say or do anything.

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