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davidspackage
May 16, 2007

Nap Ghost

21 Muns posted:

Maybe you're just struggling with the realization that you're a lovely person?

Fine, I'll put down my thoughts and you be the judge.

Ansari acted like a piece of poo poo to this woman. I hope he read the article and draws some conclusions about how dating life isn't his personal porn flick.

She acted naively. She seemed to think the night was going to turn into something more positive if she stuck around. It was repeatedly made clear that wasn't happening, because he didn't respect her boundaries.

Edit: you might ask why establish her responsibility at all when he was the one being an rear end in a top hat. I think you can draw two lessons from this account. Men, establish consent and stop trying to wear down women. They're not playing hard to get. They just don't want it. And women, when a guy repeatedly shows you he's a disrespectful prick, stop expecting that's just going to change, and loving leave.

davidspackage fucked around with this message at 10:04 on Jan 17, 2018

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Lovely Joe Stalin
Jun 12, 2007

Our Lovely Wang

HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:

Is it? The guy immediately suffered consequences, IMO what's being swept under the rug is the amount of people that likely knew and didn't say or do anything.

That's what I mean. This guy got away with what he did for so long because people, explicitly knowing what he was doing, protected him. But instead of focussing on them the debate has moved on to a more famous person's significantly less lovely (but still lovely) actions.

I want the people who were warned and ignored it, and the people who should have known but say they didn't, to be made to answer. I'm concerned that with the public spotlight moving off to another less serious story all of the people involved in sweeping the stunt guy's poo poo under the carpet will be allowed to just put their heads down an go on as before. And that is the crux of the problem in Hollywood. That the abusive structure is never torn down, and they always just go on as before.

Some Guy TT
Aug 30, 2011

Timby posted:

Don't forget there was that Bill Nighy movie a while back (About Time?) in which Domnhall Gleeson travels back in time repeatedly to make a woman fall in love with him because in his present existence she wanted nothing to do with him. So many of my friends thought it was the sweetest goddamn thing.

She gave him her number and then he accidentally changed the timeline so that they never met. I get the whole "romantic comedies are toxic and terrible" vibe but you really have to willfully misinterpret About Time in order to get that particular read on it. The only really bad part was when Domnhall Gleeson and Rachel MacAdams tell the idiot sister to get a new boyfriend instead of trying to live for herself without needing validation from a man, but nobody remembers that bit because it didn't have anything to do with the time travel.

For real though, does anyone have any better examples? Because aside from straight to DVD crap that no one watches I'm kind of drawing a blank on recent American romantic comedies that explicitly romanticize unhealthy dating behavior. But then I do live in a market that doesn't bother to import them, so...

Lovely Joe Stalin posted:

As lovely as Ansari is, it is really unfortunate that his story seems to be eclipsing that of the highly ranked guy preying on literal children on-set.

I'm honestly kind of baffled that in a thread that was started because of the exposure of a serial rapist and child sex rings, the topics this thread gets hung up on about are French extradition laws, Mark Wahlberg getting paid, and Aziz Ansari being a terrible date.

davidspackage posted:

She acted naively. She seemed to think the night was going to turn into something more positive if she stuck around. It was repeatedly made clear that wasn't happening, because he didn't respect her boundaries.

This bit confuses me too. I can't figure out why she didn't just leave. There's no indication he was using any kind of coercion, physical or emotional, to keep her there. Did she really think the date was going to be salvageable, or that she'd have any interest in a second one after the way he was behaving? I find the whole thing unfathomable really, because I'd never treat a woman like that, and if I did, I would fully expect her to tell me to go gently caress myself and march out the door.

VideoGames
Aug 18, 2003

Some Guy TT posted:

This bit confuses me too. I can't figure out why she didn't just leave. There's no indication he was using any kind of coercion, physical or emotional, to keep her there. Did she really think the date was going to be salvageable, or that she'd have any interest in a second one after the way he was behaving? I find the whole thing unfathomable really, because I'd never treat a woman like that, and if I did, I would fully expect her to tell me to go gently caress myself and march out the door.

According to the Babe.net article they had been texting/flirting for at least a week prior to the date. Perhaps he came across as a completely different person in text form.

I have a friend who went on a date with a guy after she had been flirting via text, and she said the actual date was not anything like how he had come across before hand and she felt really nauseous being there. According to her he had no idea and thought the date was going well.

Then she felt worse during the date. She told me that she had started to blame herself for feeling uneasy after all the texting. Her own words were that she thought she had been 'leading him on'.

It is honestly awful that she felt she had no choice to leave the date and she victim blamed herself for fear that she was going to look bad for making a different decision. I wonder if Grace was feeling a similar sort of guilt about it.

PriorMarcus
Oct 17, 2008

ASK ME ABOUT BEING ALLERGIC TO POSITIVITY

VideoGames posted:


It is honestly awful that she felt she had no choice to leave the date and she victim blamed herself for fear that she was going to look bad for making a different decision. I wonder if Grace was feeling a similar sort of guilt about it.

I dont think the term victim blaming is accurate here. Because going on a bad date doesn't make someone a victim.

PriorMarcus
Oct 17, 2008

ASK ME ABOUT BEING ALLERGIC TO POSITIVITY

Quote is not edit.

DrVenkman
Dec 28, 2005

I think he can hear you, Ray.
While I completely understand 'why didn't she just leave' leads to some ignorant points of view, it's maybe a little telling that the article never addresses the point. Yes lovely things happen to women when they try saying no, but nothing at all here indicates that she felt like she couldn't get up and walk out given that she felt comfortable enough to sit around Ansari naked.

DrVenkman fucked around with this message at 11:31 on Jan 17, 2018

Some Guy TT
Aug 30, 2011

The article reminded me of that Cat Person story from the New Yorker that was big awhile ago. I really felt bad making that connection, because what Ansari did was way, way worse than anything the guy in the story did, but the disaffected literary style in which the article was written really does make the whole thing sound more like a bad experience than an indictment of Ansari as a person. There's moments where it's practically a comedy, because Ansari responding to every obvious moment of discomfort by initiating more oral sex sounds like something out of an Aristocrats joke.

Darko
Dec 23, 2004

Some Guy TT posted:

The article reminded me of that Cat Person story from the New Yorker that was big awhile ago. I really felt bad making that connection, because what Ansari did was way, way worse than anything the guy in the story did, but the disaffected literary style in which the article was written really does make the whole thing sound more like a bad experience than an indictment of Ansari as a person. There's moments where it's practically a comedy, because Ansari responding to every obvious moment of discomfort by initiating more oral sex sounds like something out of an Aristocrats joke.

I read it as Ansari reading her "take it slow" and some actions as him being able to get laid *sometime that night* as opposed to *later in the relationship*, and thus him trying to jump in with any opening.

Vegetable
Oct 22, 2010

Darko posted:

I read it as Ansari reading her "take it slow" and some actions as him being able to get laid *sometime that night* as opposed to *later in the relationship*, and thus him trying to jump in with any opening.
I read it that way too, recognizing it because it's something I might have done in my late teens. This doesn't at all make it okay behavior; as others have said, this merely indicts the greater social body for normalizing such behavior.

Southpaugh
May 26, 2007

Smokey Bacon


Left out of the description of the "back in the apartment" bit of the story is that they were both probably doing loads of drugs. Read between the lines. Aziz isn't sitting around at home with some flowers and some bollinger. He's got a pile of coke and maybe some G or something like that for when things get started. She wasn't into the sex stuff, but something else was keeping her there.

Remulak
Jun 8, 2001
I can't count to four.
Yams Fan
What the hell is G?

Can you get me some?

Vegetable
Oct 22, 2010

Southpaugh posted:

Left out of the description of the "back in the apartment" bit of the story is that they were both probably doing loads of drugs. Read between the lines. Aziz isn't sitting around at home with some flowers and some bollinger. He's got a pile of coke and maybe some G or something like that for when things get started. She wasn't into the sex stuff, but something else was keeping her there.
Time for an avatar change, buddy

Tart Kitty
Dec 17, 2016

Oh, well, that's all water under the bridge, as I always say. Water under the bridge!

Vegetable posted:

Time for an avatar change, buddy

Or take on the duties of thread mascot.

Keeshhound
Jan 14, 2010

Mad Duck Swagger
The Atlantic finally published an Ansari editorial that wasn't written by someone whose head is wedged firmly up their own rear end.

GonSmithe
Apr 25, 2010

Perhaps it's in the nature of television. Just waves in space.

PriorMarcus posted:

I dont think the term victim blaming is accurate here. Because going on a bad date doesn't make someone a victim.

There is a difference between going on a bad date and someone trying to continually gently caress you when you repeatedly make it clear it’s unwanted, dude.

This is the entire point of this and it’s really sad to see how many people have this viewpoint in this whole thing. It’s really gross.

Edit- A good, short, Twitter thread on this point

https://twitter.com/hannahmosk/status/953442144626364416

GonSmithe fucked around with this message at 18:42 on Jan 17, 2018

PriorMarcus
Oct 17, 2008

ASK ME ABOUT BEING ALLERGIC TO POSITIVITY

GonSmithe posted:

There is a difference between going on a bad date and someone trying to continually gently caress you when you repeatedly make it clear it’s unwanted, dude.

This is the entire point of this and it’s really sad to see how many people have this viewpoint in this whole thing. It’s really gross.

Edit- A good, short, Twitter thread on this point

https://twitter.com/hannahmosk/status/953442144626364416

I was referring to his friend who left a date because it wasn't going well, not Grace who definitely was a victim.

Maybe Graham Norton would've understood.

GonSmithe
Apr 25, 2010

Perhaps it's in the nature of television. Just waves in space.

PriorMarcus posted:

I was referring to his friend who left a date because it wasn't going well, not Grace who definitely was a victim.

Maybe Graham Norton would've understood.

Ah, my bad, misread. Sorry!

VideoGames
Aug 18, 2003

PriorMarcus posted:

I was referring to his friend who left a date because it wasn't going well, not Grace who definitely was a victim.

Maybe Graham Norton would've understood.

Ah that is what I was getting at. My friend did not leave the date. She remained the whole way through and had to prevent him repeatedly trying to kiss her.

Luckily she did not go any further but the stories had a similar beginning I felt.

SamuraiFoochs
Jan 16, 2007




Grimey Drawer
Maybe I wasn't giving the story enough gravity but I'm inherently bothered by so many different aspects of it and I hate the world we find ourselves in, really.

To clarify some, I hadn't read the full story, just excerpts (though almost all from Anti-Aziz perspectives) and reading the story, he really did behave in a beyond gross manner. That said, as that editorial pointed out, it's a different category of problem, unfortunately more common. And in trying to parse whether Aziz is a rapist hypocrite or something else, the nature of the story as presented puts him in a really bad light but it's also not entirely out of the realm of possibility that it was just miscommunication. Admittedly the chances are slim and he'd have to be really thick to not pick up her signals if it went down how she characterized (which I believe) but sometimes people are thick. And I guess part of me feels like those should be addressed somewhat differently than the Weinstein and Spaceys of the world (which should probably carry literal jail time) but they'll forever be conflated and I kinda have mixed feelings about that.

SamuraiFoochs fucked around with this message at 00:22 on Jan 18, 2018

i am the bird
Mar 2, 2005

I SUPPORT ALL THE PREDATORS
If we trust Grace, we can’t say it was miscommunication. Yes means yes.

Miseducation, maybe. Some writers have argued that this is indicative of a knowledge gap where a lot of people are still operating on an older model of “no means no” (although this is hard to stomach here because Grace’s account indicates that she rebuffed him several times). But, Lindy West has a pretty good rebuttal in the NYT today, I think, where she outlines that “yes means yes” is neither new nor radical.

I think the key takeaway from all of this, though, is that Aziz is just the current face of this particular discussion; the overwhelming reaction is less about him specifically and more about the troubling fact that a lot of people think this unhealthy interaction is normal.

MiddleOne
Feb 17, 2011

i am the bird posted:

I think the key takeaway from all of this, though, is that Aziz is just the current face of this particular discussion; the overwhelming reaction is less about him specifically and more about the troubling fact that a lot of people think this unhealthy interaction is normal.



For those who suffered through discourse theory in polsci or whatever, the Aziz case is a textbook example of a hegemonic discourse being challenged by an antagonism. For a lot of people accepting that Aziz was acting rapey means re-defining what they even consider sexual assault. Accepting that Aziz was in the wrong means accepting all a lot more than just that which is extremely uncomfortable. That's the reason this is facing such fierce opposition.

SamuraiFoochs
Jan 16, 2007




Grimey Drawer

i am the bird posted:

If we trust Grace, we can’t say it was miscommunication. Yes means yes.

Miseducation, maybe. Some writers have argued that this is indicative of a knowledge gap where a lot of people are still operating on an older model of “no means no” (although this is hard to stomach here because Grace’s account indicates that she rebuffed him several times). But, Lindy West has a pretty good rebuttal in the NYT today, I think, where she outlines that “yes means yes” is neither new nor radical.

I think the key takeaway from all of this, though, is that Aziz is just the current face of this particular discussion; the overwhelming reaction is less about him specifically and more about the troubling fact that a lot of people think this unhealthy interaction is normal.

Well yes I guess miseducation is a better word but there is more nuance to this than out and out rape, which yes speaks more to how hosed up society is than the okay-ness of the behavior but that nuance also means, IMHO, that it's absolutely part of the same conversation and needs to be addressed but is not literally the same thing.

This is an extremely flawed analogy but I have a difficult time coming up with something better right now, it's a bit like the sex offender registry. If you're on there it means you made at least one really dumb or bad decision but that doesn't mean everyone on there is a child molester.

esperterra
Mar 24, 2010

SHINee's back




I've been debating throwing in my two cents on this situation, because it'll probably be seen as A HOT TAKE or I'll get accused of having internalized misogyny or something, but here goes:

Let me preface this by saying Azis Ansari is a loving creep, and while I think this story is being blown out of proportion (he isn't a rapist, nor do I think his shows or specials should be taken down or whatever) I think it's still relevant to the discussion and something that both men and women can learn from. It's also relevant to how he's cultivated this image of being a woke bae or whatever, and shining a light on him actually being an rear end in a top hat when alone with a woman. HOWEVER! And from here on out I am in no way trying to cast any judgement on Grace or how she handled the situation, but speaking from my own personal experience and how it's formed my view on this story:

If it were me in her place, and I have been in her place more than once, with men and women (though let's focus on men), albeit not with a celebrity (which admittedly can bring different pressures and reasons to be potentially scared than with a normie), I was always mad at myself rather than the guy, and I feel pretty justified in being angrier with my own way of handling it than with the guy who was being pushy. Not because being pushy or aggressive is good or right, but because I (and she) were kind of leading him on.

Nonverbal cues are kind of a crapshoot. I hate to say it, but it's true. Especially when substances like alcohol or drugs are involved, but even when people are sober. I know when I'm turned on I can kind of get tunnel vision, and it's easy to miss things or not pick up on it right away. I imagine it's the same for men. This doesn't excuse lovely behaviour, but it can lead to miscommunications. Up until the point Grace verbally tells him to stop, she's reciprocating, and even if it's half-assed and she's clearly not super into it she's still naked, still giving him head, still kissing him/etc. I've done that, too, and I can see how Aziz or the people I've dealt with would get confused by that. Even if she or I were getting up and walking away at points, combining that with those moments of engaging in sexual activity with the aggressor can easily be read as playing hard to get or whatever.

Aziz is a pathetic creep and after the first time she actually spoke up, he should have stopped. But she also should have gotten dressed. She should have left if she was that uncomfortable. I know it's not always so easy in the moment, because again I've been the girl who sticks around too long before finally peacing out of there, and there's a ton of reasons a person might stay:

lovely as they're being in that moment, you may still really like the guy and hope it's a one off and everything will be better later.
You may actually want to be there to hook up but not be cool with the way it's going down.
You may not want to be seen as a tease.
You simply may not see a good opportunity to say 'gently caress this, no', because things are moving fast.
etc etc etc

It's shameful and embarrassing and can make you feel pretty bad about yourself. It sucks. But I don't think it's assault, and I don't think it's rape. I do think it's something that needs to be talked about, but maybe not hyped up as a big part of #MeToo. At least not as big as the actually heinous poo poo happening to children, women and men behind closed doors.

I'm sure I've written this out badly or w/e and I'll gladly clarify anything anyone wants, but the gist of this situation for me is thus:

Everyone should learn from this. The aggressor, male or female, should learn to slow the gently caress down when it seems like the other party isn't giving as good as they're getting. Especially when the other party actually speaks up and says chill the gently caress out. But the person being pressured also needs to learn to speak up. My biggest regret when I look back at the moments I've had like Grace's is not standing up for myself properly, not just loving leaving when I'm not cool with what's going down. I would personally rather say no, put my clothes on and walk for that door and risk my would-be partner getting violent with me than stay and degrade myself with sex I don't want. But that's just me.

Also, obviously, a situation like Grace's where the aggressor is clearly already being violent or very clearly could be violent is a far different beast. That's the kind of situation I'm glad I've never been in and can understand being too scared to speak up or leave. But the story as told has Aziz being completely fine with calling her a cab when she finally does work up the nerve to peace out of there, so I personally find it hard to believe she was ever worried about her physical safety. But I'm not her so maybe she was. I can't really cast any judgment on her for however she may have felt that led her to dealing with it in the way she did. I feel terrible for her because I've been there.


sidenote: they went to a loving oyster bar, you drink white wine when you eat oysters!!!

SamuraiFoochs
Jan 16, 2007




Grimey Drawer
You pretty much nailed how I'd characterize it too but I'm a dude who's never been there so grain of salt I guess. Mind if I PM you about something sorta related to this discussion that I'm curious to know your perspective on, esperterra? I don't wanna derail the thread too much. :shobon:

esperterra
Mar 24, 2010

SHINee's back




SamuraiFoochs posted:

You pretty much nailed how I'd characterize it too but I'm a dude who's never been there so grain of salt I guess. Mind if I PM you about something sorta related to this discussion that I'm curious to know your perspective on, esperterra? I don't wanna derail the thread too much. :shobon:

For sure! I'm about to step away to do some chores but I'll get back to you later.

SamuraiFoochs
Jan 16, 2007




Grimey Drawer

esperterra posted:

For sure! I'm about to step away to do some chores but I'll get back to you later.

Thanks a bunch!

Mister Fister
May 17, 2008

D&D: HASBARA SQUAD
KILL-GORE


I love the smell of dead Palestinians in the morning.
You know, one time we had Gaza bombed for 26 days
(and counting!)

Vegetable posted:

Adding to the list of opinion pieces above, a video criticizing the babe.net piece has been popping up all over. It's by a contributor to HLN, which I now know is a part of CNN rather than a cheap YouTube knockoff of cable news channels.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y4bAULTwAJU

It's a bit disingenuous and reads like it was engineered to go viral. But it's part of a broader backlash.

The writer of the article actually emailed Banfield and uh...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjRYbR_-Dhw

sponges
Sep 15, 2011

Mister Fister posted:

The writer of the article actually emailed Banfield and uh...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjRYbR_-Dhw

lol

Mister Fister
May 17, 2008

D&D: HASBARA SQUAD
KILL-GORE


I love the smell of dead Palestinians in the morning.
You know, one time we had Gaza bombed for 26 days
(and counting!)

It's like something i'd read from a youtube comment. The writer is a hack lol.

Macdeo Lurjtux
Jul 5, 2011

BRRREADSTOOORRM!
I swear to Christ you couldn't sound more like a lovely millennial in a CBS sit com if you tried.

Mechafunkzilla
Sep 11, 2006

If you want a vision of the future...
That is...not a good look.

Vegetable
Oct 22, 2010

Mister Fister posted:

The writer of the article actually emailed Banfield and uh...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjRYbR_-Dhw
That's one way to destroy your reputation

-Blackadder-
Jan 2, 2007

Game....Blouses.

jet sanchEz posted:

Which prison thread?

MiddleOne posted:

Yeah I was about to say the same, didn't the last one die ages ago?

The original that was posted by HidingFromGoro was archived/saved and is still one of the most pro-read things to ever cross the forum.

i am the bird
Mar 2, 2005

I SUPPORT ALL THE PREDATORS
Banfield’s “open letter” was more atrocious than that e-mail but, yeah, she probably shouldn’t have responded.

HUNDU THE BEAST GOD
Sep 14, 2007

everything is yours

-Blackadder- posted:

The original that was posted by HidingFromGoro was archived/saved and is still one of the most pro-read things to ever cross the forum.

Loved this thread and read it cover to cover.

esperterra
Mar 24, 2010

SHINee's back




Mister Fister posted:

The writer of the article actually emailed Banfield and uh...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjRYbR_-Dhw

Classy.

wizardofloneliness
Dec 30, 2008

I don't know what the hell the writer was thinking doing this. I think a lot of the criticism towards the story is pretty bullshit, but responding to someone by insulting their physical appearance is basically never a good idea. There are plenty of legitimate things she could've said, but "ur old and have bad hair" just makes her look like an rear end in a top hat.

Mechafunkzilla
Sep 11, 2006

If you want a vision of the future...

Dr. S.O. Feelgood posted:

I don't know what the hell the writer was thinking doing this. I think a lot of the criticism towards the story is pretty bullshit, but responding to someone by insulting their physical appearance is basically never a good idea. There are plenty of legitimate things she could've said, but "ur old and have bad hair" just makes her look like an rear end in a top hat.

And talking about retweets and "relevance". Not good.

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esperterra
Mar 24, 2010

SHINee's back




Such a bad move. It damages the credibility of a story that I think should be getting discussed, whether that's as part of the #MeToo movement or of a broader conversation people need to be having about sex.

e: granted this is a woman whose stories on babe.net include several articles that seem to consist of learning about how to scam money out of men online by blueballing them, so i'm not surprised

esperterra fucked around with this message at 05:20 on Jan 18, 2018

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