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Something that really struck me in the CNN article I posted above was the note that the average age of a reporter at Babe is twenty-four. That might be fine for blogging or softball listicles on Buzzfeed, but it’s hard to believe that one could gather enough journalistic experience and tact at that age to properly report on a high-profile sexual assault story. Like I think back on who I was at twenty-four, and I still thought the Boondock Saints was a good movie. I mean, my god. I was an idiot.
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Jan 18, 2018 18:31
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jet sanchEz posted:No, of course he is a creep but anyone can now say that the story is the problem, not Ansari. Game over. No, it really doesn't. Anyone can dismiss a story as not worth their time. If you meet people who want to dismiss this than they'll do it regardless of anything else. The credibility of Grace's story isn't in question and its very easy to explain that or counter it with anyone who attempts to dismiss it with the Babe.net problems.
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Jan 18, 2018 18:32
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STAC Goat posted:But Babe.net seems to have done and continue to do a bad job and its just kind of lucky that Ansari didn't deny it and make the entire story suspect. Yeah, this is why legitimate outlets generally have things like, you know, editors, as opposed to 20-something kids who don't know any better. poo poo, back in 2006, I was an editor of a bi-weekly magazine at 22 and I was loving awful at it for my first year, year and a half because I was fresh out of J-school and had almost no real-world experience, yet here I was, a partner in a communication firm and running a magazine after we fired the first editor. Looking back on my first 35 issues or so ... yeeeeeesh.
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Jan 18, 2018 18:33
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STAC Goat posted:Again, its pretty clear Grace's story is true and Ansari effectively confirmed all of it with his account. Anyone who seeks to dismiss her story because of Babe.net's clear flaws is a piece of poo poo. That's a huge strawman, i don't think i've read any opinion pieces that said the story was false. People are disputing the story's claim that this constituted assault.
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Jan 18, 2018 18:34
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Mister Fister posted:That's a huge strawman, i don't think i've read any opinion pieces that said the story was false. People are disputing the story's claim that this constituted assault. Fair, and I apologize if I unintentionally mischaracterized anything in my haste. Point is Grace's story - regardless of your interpretation of it - really isn't in question and Babe.net's credibility or journalistic professionalism really doesn't factor into whether what Grace went through was assault or not.
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Jan 18, 2018 18:37
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Fart City posted:Something that really struck me in the CNN article I posted above was the note that the average age of a reporter at Babe is twenty-four. That might be fine for blogging or softball listicles on Buzzfeed, but it’s hard to believe that one could gather enough journalistic experience and tact at that age to properly report on a high-profile sexual assault story. Like I think back on who I was at twenty-four, and I still thought the Boondock Saints was a good movie. I mean, my god. I was an idiot. Accepting all that, CNN (owned by Time Warner) has certainly not been some kind of steward of journalistic integrity.
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Jan 18, 2018 18:40
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You don't think that now that Babe and it's journalist are seen in a less than favourable light (I am being generous here) cast a shadow over Grace and her story?
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Jan 18, 2018 18:41
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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:Accepting all that, CNN (owned by Time Warner) has certainly not been some kind of steward of journalistic integrity. I can certainly agree with that. I would argue the biggest problem with the Ansari story is that it’s become so much more about the reporting than the actual victimization claimed in the original article (which I will acknowledge I am guilty of to some extent as well, though my issue with Babe comes from the disservice it’s done to Grace, rather than being critical of the accusations themselves). The problem now is that if there is to be any justice for Grace, it’s going to come mired in such various shades of bullshit that she’ll always be held in doubt by some. Tart Kitty fucked around with this message at 18:46 on Jan 18, 2018 |
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Jan 18, 2018 18:43
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STAC Goat posted:Fair, and I apologize if I unintentionally mischaracterized anything in my haste. Rolling Stone didn't interview the fraternity brothers for the rape story (babe's attempt to contact aziz is just one step above that). It's pretty important to get the other side. Aziz wasn't allowed opportunity. I'm sure most of the story is accurate, but human recollection is pretty fallible even if you're not intentionally being malicious. How do we know every single point in that article is accurate? Because of Aziz's public statement (which i'm pretty sure was vetted by a PR firm)? I don't even know how people can justifiably say Aziz confirmed the whole story based on that statement alone, especially given the circumstances. How do we know he wouldn't have made corrections to the story, if given enough time?
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Jan 18, 2018 18:45
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jet sanchEz posted:You don't think that now that Babe and it's journalist are seen in a less than favourable light (I am being generous here) cast a shadow over Grace and her story? In a theoretical situation where Grace's story was in doubt, it would. But in this situation Grace's "abuser" has confirmed the gist of the story so there is no question of its credibility, there's only a difference of interpretation over abuse or not. Babe.net and the writer being bad and making themselves look bad is another issue, but it COULD have hurt Grace's credibility if Ansari had responded differently. If you find someone dismissing Grace's story based on the Babe.net stuff they're either uninformed or disingenuous.
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Jan 18, 2018 18:47
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Weren't there a number of tweets with other stories about Ansari being a creep after Babe published their article? Like obviously tweets aren't rigorous journalism, but it's not nothing. I could just be imagining this though.
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Jan 18, 2018 18:50
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Asking stars in general about details of a single time hookup or meeting is an issue. It's M. Bison/Chun Li in the wonderful Street Fighter: The Movie - for the star it is often just a Tuesday. Especially if they were innocent or did something by accident or had a different perspective, since nothing in particular would even stand out to them.
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Jan 18, 2018 18:52
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GrandpaPants posted:Weren't there a number of tweets with other stories about Ansari being a creep after Babe published their article? Like obviously tweets aren't rigorous journalism, but it's not nothing. I could just be imagining this though. There was. I posted one here I think the day after the Babe story broke. I cautioned then that it was worth seeing how things would play out, and so far there has been no real follow up on that particular field. That’s not to say that more incidents aren’t out there, but they’re not coming rapid fire as they did with, say, Kevin Spacey or Louis C.K. Which, again, I think is another fault to lay on Babe. When those stories dropped they had accounts from multiple sources over a timeline. If there are more legit claims out there, a little more work should have been done by Babe to compile the information into a more cohesive story.
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Jan 18, 2018 18:57
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jet sanchEz posted:You don't think that now that Babe and it's journalist are seen in a less than favourable light (I am being generous here) cast a shadow over Grace and her story? I think the issue is that they did a poor job reporting on the story. Like even in that account as it is, you can see Ansari clearly stepping over boundaries and that is indisputable for me. However, there's also a myriad of things a real journalist would've cleared up. For example, why did she stay? Did she feel threatened? Did she feel as though she could leave at any time? Why did she sit undressed with Ansari for a while? Some benign and some awful things happen to women when they feel like they can't say no, but Grace's account doesn't read that way. They're difficult questions but ones that absolutely have to be answered because the journalist needs to completely understand it before they write about it. A good journalist would've cleared so much up within the story and keep the focus where it needs to be. Now it's turning into 'lets not talk about boundaries but instead talk about this crazy Babe.net' stuff.
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Jan 18, 2018 19:00
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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:Accepting all that, CNN (owned by Time Warner) has certainly not been some kind of steward of journalistic integrity. It's more like CNN (under the leadership of Jeff fuckin' Zucker) has certainly not been a bastion of journalistic integrity. They plaster loving Chris Cillizza all over their front page, for God's sake.
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Jan 18, 2018 19:03
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CNN going after someone for chasing clickbait stinks of some sort of scheme (to get clicks).
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Jan 18, 2018 19:06
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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:CNN going after someone for chasing clickbait stinks of some sort of scheme (to get clicks). I literally laughed out loud maybe a year, year and a half ago when they literally started putting Outbrain sponsored content at the bottom of their articles. So I'd be reading something about interest rates or the DOL Fiduciary Rule or whatever, and at the bottom there's poo poo like "You won't believe these gadgets that are disrupting the market!"
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Jan 18, 2018 19:10
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Seriously. They're six months off from publishing unpaid Medium style articles from "CNN Contributors" themselves.
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Jan 18, 2018 19:20
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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:Seriously. They're six months off from publishing unpaid Medium style articles from "CNN Contributors" themselves. Lol I figured they did already
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Jan 18, 2018 19:23
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MacheteZombie posted:Lol I figured they did already They're just trying to figure out how to have even more worthless content than Forbes.
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Jan 18, 2018 19:24
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Well, turns our Graham Norton would've done a better job.
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Jan 18, 2018 20:06
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lol at the idea that people who don’t want to believe women are now “vindicated,” as if venue/journalist make a difference to them. Ansari didn’t deny poo poo and the story is still awful. The conversation around Babe is something entirely different.
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Jan 18, 2018 21:00
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It's also not strictly about not believing women. I believe this woman. Separately, I believe babe.net seems dumb and hurt the cause. I believe what Aziz did was not assault. Miscommunication at worst even reading only the babe.net post. Of course we can't get the other side at this point because it'd be PR suicide to actually defend himself. Separately to that there are a lot of dumb arguments going around saying that due to his high power and fame he had a power imbalance (he has no control over her and this argument kinda spins out, if you've got a Netflix show you're powerful now?) or his age from a few posts ago? Seriously? A woman in her 20s can't just leave if she feels uncomfortable? When the argument is coming down to "non verbal communication" and no other accusers have confirmed behaviour (other than drive bys on twitter ) then you don't have a slam dunk story on which you can proclaim to the masses as absolute proof that aziz is part of the problem etc. I don't even think it'll derail the cause as surely there are more obvious cases still to come that will take the news cycle anyway but that still doesn't give this a pass.
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Jan 18, 2018 21:27
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I hope aziz sues babe net for slandering him but he’s too nice a guy to do that and I respect that about him.
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Jan 18, 2018 21:28
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I know that for some reason there are Woody Allen defenders here (PS: gently caress you), but have an interview with Dylan Farrow: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ic1kMoM_kPw
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Jan 18, 2018 22:01
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Ansari is ruined
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Jan 18, 2018 22:11
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teacup posted:It's also not strictly about not believing women. I believe this woman. Separately, I believe babe.net seems dumb and hurt the cause. Either you believe her and it’s non-consensual (because she did not say yes to the entire encounter, because she pushed him away several times, and because she verbally expressed that she was not down in several situations), or you don’t believe her. Arguing legality is another issue, but the story as written (and basically confirmed by Aziz’s statement) is gross and coercive, which is not consensual and is the entire point of sharing the story: that the cultural norms around sex/consent are unhealthy and need to change. The power imbalance is literally that he has cultural power and sway as a ‘woke feminist bae’ and is also a 34 year old man pursuing and pressuring a 22 year old woman who knows his public reputation. He has a loving PR team, for christ sake. The idea that he has to control her paycheck to be powerful is nonsense.
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Jan 18, 2018 22:11
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teacup posted:I believe what Aziz did was not assault. I've been seeing this poo poo way too often. New York State defines Sexual Abuse in section 130 of the penalties code quote:The baseline act of subjecting another person to sexual contact without the person's consent constitutes third-degree sexual abuse. Grace makes it abundantly clear throughout the story that she did not consent, and no, the fact that she allowed him to pressure her into engaging in oral does not constitute consent. It absolutely counts. If anyone seriously thinks that going "but the law says it's abuse, not assault  " is a defense against this,1. It's not 2. gently caress you.
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Jan 18, 2018 22:20
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i am the bird posted:he power imbalance is literally that he has cultural power and sway as a ‘woke feminist bae’ and is also a 34 year old man pursuing and pressure a 22 year old woman who knows his public reputation. He has a loving PR team, for christ sake. The idea that he has to control her paycheck to be powerful is nonsense. I must admit i wasn't expecting PMK BNC to pull the CNN orbital cannon to nuke the blog from cable network orbit. If you though Aziz was too aggressive in his dating before, Jesus wait to see the next move of his agents. sponges posted:Ansari is ruined
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Jan 18, 2018 22:28
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Toplowtech posted:It's now a full PR war and yes, the agents and publicists are where the power is. i do not think he did "i am a woke feminist" thing because he was a woke feminist. It was more likely because his agents tell him to do it. But hey why i am pessimist about hash-tag hacktivism, i wonder. I don't think this equates with him writing Master of None at all. I think he fully sees/saw himself as a feminist and either didn't realise how badly his actions contradicted it or he rationalised the issue away ("I'm not like those guys. I get the struggle women go through. I'm just trying to enjoy my date").
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Jan 18, 2018 22:35
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Steve2911 posted:I don't think this equates with him writing Master of None at all.
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Jan 18, 2018 22:36
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Toplowtech posted:It's now a full PR war and yes, the agents and publicists are where the power is. Come on now. I think it's pretty tinfoil hat to be blaming his agency for the blog appearing to be the journalistic equivalent of an ambulance chaser. It's Babe's own words that make them appear to be lacking in experience, integrity, and a basic ability to communicate like adults, let alone professionals.
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Jan 18, 2018 22:37
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Whether it's a PR scam or his own belief and decision, Ansari has still fostered the public image of being a feminist and ally so I don't really see why it matters whose idea it was to do that. Either way it appears to be a lie.
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Jan 18, 2018 22:40
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Lovely Joe Stalin posted:Come on now. I think it's pretty tinfoil hat to be blaming his agency for the blog appearing to be the journalistic equivalent of an ambulance chaser. It's Babe's own words that make them appear to be lacking in experience, integrity, and a basic ability to communicate like adults, let alone professionals.  *nudge* *nudge*.edit: i mean they are in the top 5 of most lists for 50 most powerful PR firms in America but they aren't doing anything there. No, sir. Toplowtech fucked around with this message at 22:48 on Jan 18, 2018 |
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Jan 18, 2018 22:43
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This but unironically.
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Jan 18, 2018 22:44
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Toplowtech posted:Oh yeah they sure are poo poo at babe and PMK BNC is so good at doing nothing to defend their Aziz after his non apology/denial, when suddenly so many media starts pointing babe's weakness out. *wink* *wink* Don't be a loving idiot. It does no good to anyone or to the cause as a whole to start crying conspiracy to defend what you perceive as an outlet on your side. Babe have conducted themselves like, at best, amateurs. At worst they come across as more interested in their own aggrandisement than in justice for 'Grace'. This is a problem specifically because it opens the story up to a natural redirection into covering what a bunch of berks they are as opposed to 'Grace''s complaint. It doesn't take a conspiracy of the rich and powerful to get your poo poo called out on air when your interaction with with the news broadcasters involves insulting their appearance and age like you were a 14 year old. I don't think there are any news broadcasters who wouldn't have considered that poo poo to be relevant to reporting on the source of a story.
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Jan 18, 2018 22:52
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Lovely Joe Stalin posted:Don't be a loving idiot. It does no good to anyone or to the cause as a whole to start crying conspiracy to defend what you perceive as an outlet on your side. Babe have conducted themselves like, at best, amateurs. At worst they come across as more interested in their own aggrandisement than justice for 'Grace'. This is a problem specifically because it opens the story up to a natural redirection into covering what a bunch of berks they are as opposed to 'Grace''s complaint. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jan 18, 2018 22:55
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GrandpaPants posted:I know that for some reason there are Woody Allen defenders here (PS: gently caress you), but have an interview with Dylan Farrow: Maybe I'm just too cynical, but it's depressing to imagine that this could get drowned out by Babe loving up their reporting of the Ansari story in terms of #MeToo.
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Jan 18, 2018 22:58
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Nucleic Acids posted:Maybe I'm just too cynical, but it's depressing to imagine that this could get drowned out by Babe loving up their reporting of the Ansari story in terms of #MeToo. If you want the real tinfoil conspiracy consider that Babe is funded by Murdoch, and then think about whether Babe loving up helps or hurts the movement. Then wrap yourself entirely in tinfoil and consider that with their habit of hacking phones, they wouldn't even need to talk to 'Grace' given that we know Ansari had a conversation about his conduct via text.
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Jan 18, 2018 23:06
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Lovely Joe Stalin posted:If you want the real tinfoil conspiracy consider that Babe is funded by Murdoch, and then think about whether Babe loving up helps or hurts the movement. Then wrap yourself entirely in tinfoil and consider that with their habit of hacking phones, they wouldn't even need to talk to 'Grace' given that we know Ansari had a conversation about his conduct via text.
Toplowtech fucked around with this message at 23:14 on Jan 18, 2018 |
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Jan 18, 2018 23:10
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