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Palladium posted:Or if NV silently nerfing mining performance altogether. Most corporations hate it when a rabid group of people buy out their product at above MSRP prices as fast as you can manufacture them, so this makes sense.
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Jan 18, 2018 16:11
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They might if the above-MSRP price doesn't go to them, actually.
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Jan 18, 2018 16:20
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orcane posted:They might if the above-MSRP price doesn't go to them, actually. Why? They can just raise the MSRP then. Gamers get screwed, but nVidia doesn't have to care.
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Jan 18, 2018 16:25
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Wacky Delly posted:Why? They can just raise the MSRP then. Gamers get screwed, but nVidia doesn't have to care. Itd be major news if they raised chip prices to AIBs. They are happy about the volume im sure but thats all it is to Nvidia and AMD specifically. Distributors win first, AIBs second. Retail typically not at all
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Jan 18, 2018 17:06
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“Gentlemen, we need to do something to our upcoming product line in order to reduce sales,” said no one ever.
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Jan 18, 2018 17:45
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I might take my money from mining and put it in Nvidia stock tbh
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Jan 18, 2018 17:49
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There is something to be said about “not all sales are good” when the sales aren’t helping you build your brand with the demographic you need. Nvidia might like money but they are making gaming graphics cards and if gamers can’t get them it hurts their image. “The best cards for gaming” rings hollow when you can’t get them to play games. The only thing preventing brand image issues right now is that AMD has the same issue. If gamers could get AMD cards now while Nvidia were sold out to buttminers you’d better believe Nvidia’s reputation would take a hit. Nvidia and AMD would greatly benefit from making mining and gaming hardware separate somehow if they can. It’s not like they weren’t selling through their inventory before the crypto boom took off.
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Jan 18, 2018 18:42
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Number19 posted:There is something to be said about “not all sales are good” when the sales aren’t helping you build your brand with the demographic you need. Nvidia might like money but they are making gaming graphics cards and if gamers can’t get them it hurts their image. “The best cards for gaming” rings hollow when you can’t get them to play games. The only thing preventing brand image issues right now is that AMD has the same issue. If gamers could get AMD cards now while Nvidia were sold out to buttminers you’d better believe Nvidia’s reputation would take a hit. Oh and the Fury X I gave to my buddy now resells at 50 dollars less than what I paid for in December of 2015. He contemplated selling it off to trade up to a 1070 before realizing that those are 1000+ now as well. I've been buying silicon to make pixels turn colors for nearly two decades and I've never seen anything like this. ZobarStyl fucked around with this message at 18:59 on Jan 18, 2018 |
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Jan 18, 2018 18:55
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Lockback posted:Most corporations hate it when a rabid group of people buy out their product at above MSRP prices as fast as you can manufacture them, so this makes sense. Nothing stopping Nvidia from making mining-optimized cards and selling them to miners and mining companies directly. They can do that and nerf mining at the GeForce level at the same time. One of the guys from LTT was talking to GN Steve in a video posted yesterday and said that it could bite Nvidia's stock price eventually, since investors will eventually become wary to see Nvidia stock following altcoins up to the moon while the adoption rate remains flat or goes down because so much stock is being collected by such few people. Imagine if I had a five billion dollar company, and I said to you, "we used to have millions of customers, but now all our products are bought and hoarded by eight people. Their businesses are in making videos of pigs dancing on YouTube. So as long as there's a viable economic model for dancing pigs, we'll be all right. But if the dancing pig thing fails, we have no customers." Sound like a company you want to invest in? Craptacular! fucked around with this message at 19:02 on Jan 18, 2018 |
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Jan 18, 2018 18:58
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Explain how one can neuter a card's mining performance without crippling gaming performance? I'm curious.
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Jan 18, 2018 19:02
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PerrineClostermann posted:Explain how one can neuter a card's mining performance without crippling gaming performance? I'm curious. AMD made a driver that enhanced mining performance. I'm pretty sure you can make one that deliberately gimps it, and slap it into the BIOS.
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Jan 18, 2018 19:04
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Craptacular! posted:AMD made a driver that enhanced mining performance. I'm pretty sure you can make one that deliberately gimps it, and slap it into the BIOS. And how do you differentiate the two workloads? Keep in mind miners will do their best to defeat it.
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Jan 18, 2018 19:12
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I really wish I didn't care about actually playing PC games. I would sell this 1080 in a heartbeat, but being stuck with consoles only for god knows how long just isn't going to work.
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Jan 18, 2018 19:13
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PerrineClostermann posted:And how do you differentiate the two workloads? Keep in mind miners will do their best to defeat it. Mining uses different parts of the card, as I understand, and uses much more of the card in that way. You can, for instance, detect any Eth-based coin by the huge DAG file, which is what AMD's optimized driver helps with (as the DAG grows with the difficulty, AMD cards were beginning to struggle.) There are technical differentiation between the workload on a card during mining and during gameplay, and that probably is where you'd go to say "hey, my processor is hardly working and there's no render load here and my memory is full of this huge data, this is probably mining." At the end of the day someone could create a crypto miner that looks like a big fancy video game to fool the software, I'd guess, but doing so would add inefficiency, and likely result in throttling from voltage/heat thus bringing down the hash rate. EDIT: Nvidia is already telling data centers that the license will no longer allow them to use GeForce cards to do things they should be buying Titans for (which comes after they added free performance to the 1080ti for some reason) so there's financial reasons beyond mining where you can picture all this stuff coming soon anyway. If Nvidia were the kind of company to release new products on a regular schedule a la the iPhone, this is one of those cases where they could have their cake and eat it too by unlocking boards for mining (x) months after their launch when there's a new product on shelves for gamers to buy. Craptacular! fucked around with this message at 19:33 on Jan 18, 2018 |
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Jan 18, 2018 19:27
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nVidia cards are so popular, they can't keep their cards on the shelves despite the insane mark-ups, but this is in fact very bad for nVidia because it's hard for gamers to get one. Okay, now I've heard it all.
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Jan 18, 2018 20:46
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The bad part for Nvidia is when the bubble bursts and their sales get cut in half overnight and investors freak about the insanely inflated stock price. As long as GPU mining is profitable, they are in this bind. Gimping mining isn't really an option because they are selling like hell, but the larger the share that mining sales make of their bottomline, the more susceptible they are to the inevitable crash. And investors REALLY don't like it when graph lines suddenly and permanently go down. Nvidia has been diversifying more and more the last few years, which will help. But customer, retail GPUs are still their primary business by far.
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Jan 18, 2018 20:56
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Dadbod Apocalypse posted:nVidia cards are so popular, they can't keep their cards on the shelves despite the insane mark-ups, but this is in fact very bad for nVidia because it's hard for gamers to get one. Okay, now I've heard it all. None of those markups are going to Nvidia. They are also not selling anything to the market they are targeting. They are becoming vulnerable to the general financial pollution cryptocurrencies are spreading. I would imagine that they are actually concerned about what happens to their sales when the music ends and the market is flooded with second hand GPUs.
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Jan 18, 2018 21:03
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Nvidia has probably already halted if not reduced production of Pascal in anticipation of the next launch. I don't think a flood of used cards would adversely affect the next gen too badly. Not to sound elitist, but the PCMR shouldn't even touch a used 1080 Ti for anything over $500 after the next generation comes out. There are going to be a poo poo load of them when the next gen comes out and the crypto market keeps tanking. SlayVus fucked around with this message at 21:08 on Jan 18, 2018 |
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Jan 18, 2018 21:05
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Enos Cabell posted:I really wish I didn't care about actually playing PC games. I would sell this 1080 in a heartbeat, but being stuck with consoles only for god knows how long just isn't going to work. Paying to play any games online kind of sucks. Plus, 30 FPS in way too many games. SlayVus posted:Not to sound elitist, but the PCMR shouldn't even touch a used 1080 Ti for anything over $500 after the next generation comes out. There are going to be a poo poo load of them when the next gen comes out and the crypto market keeps tanking. I don't think so, really. I have a feeling the GPU market is maturing, a lot like the CPU market. AMD isn't providing much competition in the GPU space, and although they are in the CPU space, it's only just enough to provide small bumps to core count. I could be completely loving incorrect, and we have cards next gen that are way faster than 1080 Ti for nothing. Edit: I also think the crypto currency market simply isn't going to tank as much as some think. The current dips are most likely just corrections, although it does highlight how much a single transaction provider can change the value of the currency. Fact is, cryptocurrencies are the choice of criminals, and crime always pays. HalloKitty fucked around with this message at 21:24 on Jan 18, 2018 |
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Jan 18, 2018 21:21
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Cygni posted:The bad part for Nvidia is when the bubble bursts and their sales get cut in half overnight and investors freak about the insanely inflated stock price. This is pretty doubtful. What's more likely to happen is that, when the bubble bursts, the influx of used cards will actually allow the pent-up demand for sanely-priced cards to have an outlet. Like, I don't know, maybe being able to buy a 1070 at +/- $50 from MSRP. You can't really argue things in both directions: either there's a ton of consumer demand that's not being met because all the cards are going to buttminers--in which case the market should be able to absorb huge amounts of used cards before it becomes difficult to sell new ones, or there's not a ton of consumer demand that's not being met, in which case the flood of used cards would depress prices and cut NVidia sales. As has been said, this wouldn't be the case if AMD were actually competitive and consumers could actually jump ship away from NVidia, but AMD isn't even worth consideration for the most part, so NVidia can safely ride this pony basically as long as they want. Especially since they are either cutting or eliminating Pascal production already, so the potential for ending up with a huge warehouse full of unsellable cards ala the R290 is very unlikely. DrDork fucked around with this message at 21:26 on Jan 18, 2018 |
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Jan 18, 2018 21:23
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Number19 posted:None of those markups are going to Nvidia. Number19 posted:They are also not selling anything to the market they are targeting. Yes, it's an additional market on top of the gamers. A increasing demand for video cards from an ever-larger market willing to pay top dollar for them is extremely bad for Nvidia for reasons I can't quite fathom.
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Jan 18, 2018 21:25
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Nvidia made money off gamers. Now they're making money off miners, but it's not any more money since all these price increases are going elsewhere in the chain. They have not raised the price of cards or components. They also can't reliably increase supply. Video games are going to drive the rate of production because crypto is too unstable, whereas video games are at least a reliable benchmark of releases and demand. The longer it goes on the more their stock risks being overvalued, since their stock is a traditional regulated investment that is tied to a runaway libertarian pipe dream of anarcho-capitalism. If you screw up mining on gaming cards and sell cards optimized for mining, you can have both. The risk is that mining collapses and even swapping out some firmware chips or whatever to repurpose them for gaming doesn't help because PC gaming isn't big enough to absorb all that stock either.
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Jan 18, 2018 21:31
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Yes, the smart play might be to split off a line targeted to mining; this way you insulate yourself from future shocks resulting from what you describe. Hell, you could spin it off into its own division if you're concerned about effects on share prices. But right now, as long as your card serves your primary target (gamers) well in terms of performance, additional sales to other unintended markets is gravy.
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Jan 18, 2018 21:41
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That was my original point: make mining specific cards for the idiots so you can service your traditional market along with this new, unstable one. Then you can insulate the risk better, and extract the extra profits yourself instead of letting the AIB or retail chain reap all the benefits. Gaming is a reliable income stream that’s not going anywhere. Buttmining is worth 35 billi...wait 27...no 100 billion oh wait the SEC regulated it it’s worth zero now They definitely do not want all their eggs in that basket and that’s where they are right now (professional/datacenter products excluded). It might not even be possible for them to make mining only gear in which case this is all moot.
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Jan 18, 2018 21:51
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Number19 posted:That was my original point...  My bad -- I don't read so well sometimes.
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Jan 18, 2018 21:57
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I own an RX480 that I got at launch in the stock configuration. I just need someone to reality check me here: selling it on Ebay to get bought by some cryptominer is insane right? I have an R9 380 that I could go back to, but it just seems like a totally crazy idea.
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Jan 18, 2018 22:10
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axeil posted:I own an RX480 that I got at launch in the stock configuration. I just need someone to reality check me here: selling it on Ebay to get bought by some cryptominer is insane right? My concern is that some rear end in a top hat miner will say at day 29 “lol sorry don’t want this, here’s your return” then you get stuck with a card that’s been hosed with for mining (AMD cards especially since the VBIOS can be flashed with weird poo poo) and you’re back at square one. Maybe someone has more recent experience with this, but it seems like a dumb risk IMO given EBay’s mega pro-buyer/anti-seller approach.
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Jan 18, 2018 22:17
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Dadbod Apocalypse posted:But right now, as long as your card serves your primary target (gamers) well in terms of performance, additional sales to other unintended markets is gravy. If it’s completely unaffordable at lower tiers, it’s not serving your primary market. An explosion in price at the 1080 level doesn’t matter to Nvidia because there’s nothing else up there. An explosion in prices of 1050/1060 cards that makes people say “gently caress this, I’ll buy a PS4” is a big problem.
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Jan 18, 2018 22:20
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tehinternet posted:My concern is that some rear end in a top hat miner will say at day 29 “lol sorry don’t want this, here’s your return” then you get stuck with a card that’s been hosed with for mining (AMD cards especially since the VBIOS can be flashed with weird poo poo) and you’re back at square one. Yeah, that is what had me concerned. That and that I actually really like the RX480, although it's a bit hot/loud as it has that stock cooler on it. I feel like going back to the R9 380 is a big downgrade and  at the idea of selling an RX480 and then trying to buy a 580.
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Jan 18, 2018 22:20
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Expanding the console market is especially bad for Nvidia because they don’t have GPUs in any consoles so it is outright lost revenue. AMD at least loses out less there.
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Jan 18, 2018 22:28
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I got a new 1080ti for msrp. Whats a good price to sell my 1070 for ? It's hard to figure out what it's worth, because all I see are stalled ebay auctions for $1000 and newegg is out of stock.
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Jan 18, 2018 22:41
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Number19 posted:Expanding the console market is especially bad for Nvidia because they don’t have GPUs in any consoles so it is outright lost revenue. AMD at least loses out less there. The Nintendo Switch is Nvidia based  AMD does stand to gain more though, being in two of the three main consoles.
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Jan 18, 2018 22:41
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PerrineClostermann posted:And how do you differentiate the two workloads? Keep in mind miners will do their best to defeat it. They already do this for CAD/rendering work - deliberately gimp performance on gaming cards to force you to buy FirePro/Quadro.
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Jan 18, 2018 22:43
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lDDQD posted:They already do this for CAD/rendering work - deliberately gimp performance on gaming cards to force you to buy FirePro/Quadro. I believe most mining programs are written in Cuda for NVIDIA. Nvidia could go and require Cuda applications to have a license from Nvidia to run on GeForce cards and if they don't have a license they can only run on Quadro. As it is now if the developers going to implement Cuda into their game, Nvidia is going to send a developer to help them with coding it anyways. I think that's about the only way you could get them to stop mining on GeForce cards. SlayVus fucked around with this message at 23:11 on Jan 18, 2018 |
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Jan 18, 2018 23:05
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Does HDMI vs DisplayPort matter with my GPU if I'm just running dual monitors (two Dell U2410) that can only do 60hz? Is there any advantage to using DisplayPort? I'm running a RX 480 right now and noticed I get an occasional screen go out for a couple seconds and then come back on. It's maybe twice a day but annoying. I'm wondering if this is due to the HDMI cable and if switching to DisplayPort would potentially fix that? I guess I'm just wondering if the GPU has a preference in HDMI or DisplayPort. Whether it's worth dropping $10 to buy some cables and ditching the HDMI. Niwrad fucked around with this message at 23:24 on Jan 18, 2018 |
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Jan 18, 2018 23:15
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PerrineClostermann posted:Explain how one can neuter a card's mining performance without crippling gaming performance? I'm curious. Like I said earlier: disable OpenCL/CUDA support from VBIOS/firmware, sign VBIOS and enforce signatures to prevent someone from tinkering and re-enabling it, when operating in graphics mode use a strong form of HDCP to ensure that nothing can touch the framebuffer and that the pixels are going to a legitimate display. You could even sell OpenCL/CUDA mode as a DLC - pay $X and get a signed VBIOS that enables CUDA/OpenCL for your particular card's serial number. re: earlier HDCP discussion, the broken forms of HDCP are the lower-level ones. Nobody has actually broken HDCP 2.2 so far, the only attacks are downgrade attacks and you could hypothetically not do that. But yeah DRM is a cat-and-mouse game, but given sufficiently aggressive and substantial DRM it's certainly possible for it to be a substantial speedbump. It's mostly a question of whether it's worth paying for the hardware, and worth enduring the compatibility hassles that will ensue. And the answer is "obviously not", but there's no reason they hypothetically couldn't start going down this road. And as we discussed earlier, NVIDIA already will not let gaming cards run applications while in P0 performance state, while they appear to be enabling that on mining cards (and probably Quadros as well). This makes roughly a 30% performance difference on the mining cards. Why not 50% or 70% performance reduction instead? Paul MaudDib fucked around with this message at 23:46 on Jan 18, 2018 |
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Jan 18, 2018 23:34
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jonathan posted:I got a new 1080ti for msrp. Whats a good price to sell my 1070 for ? It's hard to figure out what it's worth, because all I see are stalled ebay auctions for $1000 and newegg is out of stock. Search ebay for sold listings?
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Jan 18, 2018 23:38
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I think part of it was CAD applications obeying identifying what card you had. Nvidia promised and delivered additional support to them as long as they agreed to only run on Quadro cards. Mining apps DGAF and look for anything that can compute.
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Jan 18, 2018 23:39
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Paul MaudDib posted:Like I said earlier: disable OpenCL/CUDA, sign VBIOS and enforce signatures to prevent someone from tinkering and re-enabling it, when operating in graphics mode use a strong form of HDCP to ensure that nothing can touch the framebuffer and that the pixels are going to a legitimate display. They can't just disable data readback from the GPU to the CPU, that would break every engine that uses occlusion queries (amongst other things). Readback is generally avoided where possible but a huge number of games do rely on it working.
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Jan 18, 2018 23:50
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repiv posted:They can't just disable data readback from the GPU to the CPU, that would break every engine that uses occlusion queries (amongst other things). For legitimate games, you can set up a certificate authority system. NVIDIA has the root cert, you issue a sub-CA to each studio, when they release a binary they sign it and the driver verifies the chain of signatures before allowing HDCP to be disabled. Which would prevent most of the problems with compatibility/expense - the only real problem is that if you are an aspiring game-dev you will need to buy a HDCP-compatible display until you're legit enough to get a cert. The root-of-trust already exists on newer processors, this is why you can't run Netflix 4K on anything except a Kaby Lake or newer or Pascal or newer. Paul MaudDib fucked around with this message at 23:55 on Jan 18, 2018 |
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Jan 18, 2018 23:52
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