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TooMuchAbstraction
Oct 14, 2012

I spent four years making
Waves of Steel
Hell yes I'm going to turn my avatar into an ad for it.
Fun Shoe
Yeah, I've never been asked for references that I can recall. :shrug:

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Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


I mean that I mixed up them asking for references with asking for letters of rec - it’s the former, not the latter.

Skandranon
Sep 6, 2008
fucking stupid, dont listen to me

Pollyanna posted:

I mean that I mixed up them asking for references with asking for letters of rec - it’s the former, not the latter.

If they are external recruiters, they are probably just fishing for people to spam.

Che Delilas
Nov 23, 2009
FREE TIBET WEED

Skandranon posted:

If they are external recruiters, they are probably just fishing for people to spam.

It's this.

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


Figures. I usually expect references to be asked for by hiring managers and the people at the actual company, rather than recruiters.

Got another interview in a bit. This time, I want to grill them about:

- Company’s long-term prospects
- Work-life balance (expectations, etc)
- Decent tech
- Employee development and advancement (i.e. management style)
- Do employees enjoy time at company, do they feel securely employed, confidence in long term health of company

I’m specifically doing this to find a company that offers good, long-term employment and won’t suddenly downsize for dumb reasons. Sick of jobs ending for dumb reasons. I want to be more selective this time.

metztli
Mar 19, 2006
Which lead to the obvious photoshop, making me suspect that their ad agencies or creative types must be aware of what goes on at SA
Before there is a specific offer on a specific position? That sounds sketchy.

The only way I would give out contact info for people in my network would be if it were for an amazing position and it was a dealbreaker requirement. Even then I’d probably suggest they check my linked in first and see the endorsements I’ve gotten instead.

E: I’d be curious what questions you plan on asking to get those answers.

metztli fucked around with this message at 00:16 on Jan 18, 2018

ProSlayer
Aug 11, 2008

Hi friend
I'd like input on my current work situation. I'm currently a first year full-time MBA student at a top 20 program with four years software development experience and Computer Engineering undergrad. I initially joined the program to switch into a finance role, but quickly realized that was not something I wanted to do. Since I did not have much of a backup plan, I switched to recruiting for product management because it was closely related to my background. I've received some traction on looking for summer internships but am worried it's not enough and have expanded my search to product marketing manager internships.

After spending some time researching the career path for Product Managers, I'm not convinced that it is more lucrative/flexible than staying in software engineering, and trying to become a lead or a manager. In the past, I applied to the major tech companies, but have never been able to get passed the technical interview. I'll continue looking for internships for the summer, but I'm looking for advice on next steps after I graduate. My goal is fairly straightforward: earn more money, have a career path towards management, and less stress. Location wise, I would prefer moving to New York / Boston / DC area. I think San Francisco / Seattle are better tech hubs, but as a single guy I figure the social scene would better at cities that aren't so male-dominated.

The way I see it, my best bet would be apply to product management and software engineering jobs on the east cost and go for the job that I get that pays the most. Any thoughts from people who have moved from engineering roles to product management or people management?

kitten smoothie
Dec 29, 2001

Skandranon posted:

If they are external recruiters, they are probably just fishing for people to spam.

A friend was getting a job as a W-2 employee with a staffing firm, and he gave my name as a reference.

The person from the staffing firm calls me, spends like 90 seconds tops on discussion about my friend, and then immediately goes into trying to sell me on how he's got chairs that need warming all over town and how do I feel about J2EE.

Ither
Jan 30, 2010

Skandranon posted:

If they are external recruiters, they are probably just fishing for people to spam.

This is usually the case.

I don't give out references until I've gotten an offer.

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


Well, now I feel bad that I gave them the email of a previous team lead. :(

metztli posted:

Before there is a specific offer on a specific position? That sounds sketchy.

The only way I would give out contact info for people in my network would be if it were for an amazing position and it was a dealbreaker requirement. Even then I’d probably suggest they check my linked in first and see the endorsements I’ve gotten instead.

E: I’d be curious what questions you plan on asking to get those answers.

During yesterday's interview, I asked them how they felt about the company's direction, if they knew what they would be working on in the next year or two years, if they felt they could manage their day-to-day expectations, and how their product was being received by their users. For tech, I asked about their tech stack, the history for their product, how their recent rewrite went, and whether their tech fit their needs.

The first person I was interviewing with handwaved the product and company-related questions by saying he didn't really care. Fair enough, I guess. We didn't have time for the tech questions, unfortunately.

The second person I interviewed outright said that the products weren't really selling well, that he didn't know what he would be doing in 6 months let alone a year, and that he couldn't really justify why they were using their tech. He also gave an overall nervous and pressured demeanor that made me wonder how stressful his position was, but apparently he was just another senior engineer.

I came from the interview feeling like it wasn't a good fit and not having much confidence in the company's long-term prospects.

I've had pretty blah experiences with recruiters - I'm just not going to deal with them anymore.

Good Will Hrunting
Oct 8, 2012

I changed my mind.
I'm not sorry.
The last time I spoke with HR about a team switch, they asked how I liked our new lead (not the boss-man who is a toxic tool obviously, the cool new guy). I championed his cause as aggressively hard as I could and had a long, long chat about how great of a tech manager and leader I could see him being. Turns out, the plan was always to install him as the manager of my team and transition bad boss baby away to a "different role". I heard whispers that it's going to happen very, very shortly.. talking weeks. :woop:

asur
Dec 28, 2012

ProSlayer posted:

I'd like input on my current work situation. I'm currently a first year full-time MBA student at a top 20 program with four years software development experience and Computer Engineering undergrad. I initially joined the program to switch into a finance role, but quickly realized that was not something I wanted to do. Since I did not have much of a backup plan, I switched to recruiting for product management because it was closely related to my background. I've received some traction on looking for summer internships but am worried it's not enough and have expanded my search to product marketing manager internships.

After spending some time researching the career path for Product Managers, I'm not convinced that it is more lucrative/flexible than staying in software engineering, and trying to become a lead or a manager. In the past, I applied to the major tech companies, but have never been able to get passed the technical interview. I'll continue looking for internships for the summer, but I'm looking for advice on next steps after I graduate. My goal is fairly straightforward: earn more money, have a career path towards management, and less stress. Location wise, I would prefer moving to New York / Boston / DC area. I think San Francisco / Seattle are better tech hubs, but as a single guy I figure the social scene would better at cities that aren't so male-dominated.

The way I see it, my best bet would be apply to product management and software engineering jobs on the east cost and go for the job that I get that pays the most. Any thoughts from people who have moved from engineering roles to product management or people management?

I wouldn't exclude SF. The city itself isn't male dominated and it tends to pay better than everywhere else. DC in particular has low pay unless you work for very specific companies or have a top secret clearance.

Munkeymon
Aug 14, 2003

Motherfucker's got an
armor-piercing crowbar! Rigoddamndicu𝜆ous.



asur posted:

I wouldn't exclude SF. The city itself isn't male dominated and it tends to pay better than everywhere else. DC in particular has low pay unless you work for very specific companies or have a top secret clearance.

http://www.bestplaces.net/docs/studies/solocities_gap1.aspx


src http://www.businessinsider.com/maps-show-cities-where-single-women-outnumber-men-2015-2

feedmegin
Jul 30, 2008

That's...pretty stark. Are women scared of the Great Frontier or something?

Jaded Burnout
Jul 10, 2004


feedmegin posted:

That's...pretty stark. Are women scared of the Great Frontier or something?

It does specify single. Maybe the West coast men are all unloveable assholes and/or ugly.

Good Will Hrunting
Oct 8, 2012

I changed my mind.
I'm not sorry.
It's a New York City problem

mrmcd
Feb 22, 2003

Pictured: The only good cop (a fictional one).

Jaded Burnout posted:

It does specify single. Maybe the West coast men are all unloveable assholes and/or ugly.

tech_industry.txt

ultrafilter
Aug 23, 2007

It's okay if you have any questions.


San Francisco proper isn't as skewed as the south bay, but that's setting a pretty low bar.

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


Boston is actually majority women, so at least I fit in.

the talent deficit
Dec 20, 2003

self-deprecation is a very british trait, and problems can arise when the british attempt to do so with a foreign culture





feedmegin posted:

That's...pretty stark. Are women scared of the Great Frontier or something?

military bases

Munkeymon
Aug 14, 2003

Motherfucker's got an
armor-piercing crowbar! Rigoddamndicu𝜆ous.




That makes sense for a bunch of them and I think forestry, mining and fracking explain a lot of the others.

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


Getting further ahead in this one job prospect, the one that's a W-2 under a recruiter agency. Having some trouble understanding how it works...as I understand it, the client pays a particular rate to the agency, the agency takes a particular % of that for themselves and to pay for basic benefits like health insurance (apparently not vacation time though?), the rest goes to me depending on the hours I've worked (checking in and out each day). So if - random-rear end number - the client is paying 80/hr, then the agency takes 25~30 of that, uses it to pay for probably lovely health insurance and social security and taxes and whatever, I get 50~55/hr?

I dunno, this math is all weird and different from what I'm used to and I'm gonna be grilling the agency about it, getting all the numbers down. That said, I know I asked before and got a couple answers, but has anyone worked under a system like this? If so, how was it? Was it worth it, assuming everything else about the job was cool?

The Fool
Oct 16, 2003


With a W2 contract, you will get paid whatever the agency pays you and get whatever benefits the agency gives you. It almost doesn't matter to you what the company you are placed at is paying the agency. You are almost certainly overthinking it, and the arrangement is without a doubt in favor of the contracting agency.

Because it's a W2 contract, the agency will handle tax withholding just like any other job with a W2.

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


I get that. I just wanna know exactly what I'll be getting in the deal, and make sure I don't get shafted (or shafted too hard). That's what I'll be working out with the agency.

The Fool
Oct 16, 2003


I guess I don't understand.

In the context of this one job, the employment agency is going to make you an offer and either the compensation you negotiate is acceptable or it's not. I don't see how the agency's contract with any of their client companies matters to you at this stage. What are you going to do, make a counter offer directly to the company you would be placed at?

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


Well, they said they had to lock in the number before they could forward my resume 'n stuff (yeah, I know), so I asked for a particular $$/hr. Now I'm wondering how much of that $$/hr goes specifically to me, and that's what I'll be asking them about.

spiritual bypass
Feb 19, 2008

Grimey Drawer
That amount you asked for would be what you get paid. Their arrangement with the place you'd be working is all behind-the-scenes.

Jose Valasquez
Apr 8, 2005

You aren't going to know how much the company is paying the agency, all that matters and all that you will know is how much they are going to pay you

Munkeymon
Aug 14, 2003

Motherfucker's got an
armor-piercing crowbar! Rigoddamndicu𝜆ous.



Jose Valasquez posted:

You aren't going to know how much the company is paying the agency, all that matters and all that you will know is how much they are going to pay you

When I was doing W2 contracting I found this number out because the clients' time entry systems told me or else I wouldn't have known.

the talent deficit
Dec 20, 2003

self-deprecation is a very british trait, and problems can arise when the british attempt to do so with a foreign culture





Pollyanna posted:

Well, they said they had to lock in the number before they could forward my resume 'n stuff (yeah, I know), so I asked for a particular $$/hr. Now I'm wondering how much of that $$/hr goes specifically to me, and that's what I'll be asking them about.

as far as you're concerned this is just a normal job except you have to tie work done to particular contracts/customers. if you asked for $50/hr you'll get $2k a week regardless of how many of your hours you actually bill (but you'll probably get fired if you're not billing above average hours for the week)

(if this isn't the deal, run away)

asur
Dec 28, 2012

Based on the 2014 Cenus data there's about a +11.28% men in the 20-34 age range in SF. That sounds bad, but the effect on dating is pretty minimal in my experience. If you assume people pair off roughly equally based on a scale then the math agrees as well unless you're on the low end of the scale. See https://medium.com/fun-with-data-and-stats/how-san-francisco-s-gender-disparity-affects-the-attractiveness-pairings-of-couples-1f504acb937d.

I've lived in DC as well which has pretty much the exact opposite ratio and found it easier to date in SF.

fantastic in plastic
Jun 15, 2007

The Socialist Workers Party's newspaper proved to be a tough sell to downtown businessmen.

Pollyanna posted:

Getting further ahead in this one job prospect, the one that's a W-2 under a recruiter agency. Having some trouble understanding how it works...as I understand it, the client pays a particular rate to the agency, the agency takes a particular % of that for themselves and to pay for basic benefits like health insurance (apparently not vacation time though?), the rest goes to me depending on the hours I've worked (checking in and out each day). So if - random-rear end number - the client is paying 80/hr, then the agency takes 25~30 of that, uses it to pay for probably lovely health insurance and social security and taxes and whatever, I get 50~55/hr?

I dunno, this math is all weird and different from what I'm used to and I'm gonna be grilling the agency about it, getting all the numbers down. That said, I know I asked before and got a couple answers, but has anyone worked under a system like this? If so, how was it? Was it worth it, assuming everything else about the job was cool?

Yes, you've got the right idea in your hypothetical example. The benefits are usually meh, but hey at least it's health insurance, and if you don't like managers that's helpful because you'll probably never see one from your employer. If you're working on-site with the client, you'll want to know how the client treats contractors -- what is and is not billable, do you have to clock out to go to the bathroom, that kind of stuff.

metztli
Mar 19, 2006
Which lead to the obvious photoshop, making me suspect that their ad agencies or creative types must be aware of what goes on at SA
I would murder the sumbitch who said I have to clock out to pee.

Please tell me that isn’t a real thing and that there are no real people who agree to that.

Volguus
Mar 3, 2009

metztli posted:

I would murder the sumbitch who said I have to clock out to pee.

Please tell me that isn’t a real thing and that there are no real people who agree to that.

It certainly exists and no sane worker would see that as "fair". However, this kind of treatment is usually reserved for the low income jobs, warehouse temp workers (Amazon for example) , illegal immigrants and so on. Where an employer can afford to. In software/IT ... hahaha, no.

comedyblissoption
Mar 15, 2006

metztli posted:

I would murder the sumbitch who said I have to clock out to pee.

Please tell me that isn’t a real thing and that there are no real people who agree to that.
:capitalism:

Mniot
May 22, 2003
Not the one you know
I interviewed with a financial company that got all their workers as contractors. I got as far as an on-site interview, but then they rejected me because they could tell that I didn't want to wear a suit.

Anyway, as far as I could tell, the whole thing was legit. The entire team was contractors who'd been there fore years and seemed happy and well-paid. The recruiting agency would either just handle recruitment and take the finder fee (if you already had your own contracting business) or they'd handle the W-2 and then exclusively hire you out to the fintech company.

I tried asking why the company wanted contractors for a permanent position and the best that I got was that people thought it was a company philosophy thing -- you get paid for the hours you put in, so you don't get paid for doing nothing and you don't do work for free.

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


I'll definitely be checking out the workplace itself and seeing how other people like working there before agreeing to it. The idea of having to clock out to pee and eat is weird and bullshit and I don't like it so I sure as hell hope that's not the case.

As for why, it's a local government job so apparently they have to go through recruiters and can't hire anyone directly. :shrug:

Mao Zedong Thot
Oct 16, 2008


pollyanna have some free advice: don't take a contract job (whether or not you are directly doing the contracting). Given your history it seems an obviously bad fit. Like if you *need* a job ASAP, yeah, take it, and keep looking every spare moment. But if you take it, don't be surprised if it turns out all sideways, seems like you need a more permanent and structured environment.

Pollyanna posted:

As for why, it's a local government job so apparently they have to go through recruiters and can't hire anyone directly. :shrug:

Yeah, that doesn't make it sound better...

MrMoo
Sep 14, 2000

Mniot posted:

I interviewed with a financial company that got all their workers as contractors.

A lot of banks work like this, it works out better tax-wise for higher paid incomes.

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Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


Mao Zedong Thot posted:

pollyanna have some free advice: don't take a contract job (whether or not you are directly doing the contracting). Given your history it seems an obviously bad fit. Like if you *need* a job ASAP, yeah, take it, and keep looking every spare moment. But if you take it, don't be surprised if it turns out all sideways, seems like you need a more permanent and structured environment.

That is one of the concerns, yeah. Whether or not it's a well structured environment depends on if/when I go see it, but it still wouldn't be permanent and I'm not sure I'm cool with that. The big things going for it are 1. tech stack that I'm interested in 2. job that isn't dependent on finding customers that may or may not even exist. It's more money than usual for me, but so was the last one...

quote:

Yeah, that doesn't make it sound better...

Supposedly it's a requirement but I'll be damned if I understand how local government works.

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