|
Kheldarn posted:They're gonna go back, fix everything, and then get caught by General Hale. We know she's no good, after what she did to Lts. Evan & Lucas. Nah, other way around I think. They'll encounter Hale and then have to deal with the destruction of Earth (which will be the season's big arc).
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2018 02:36
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 25, 2024 16:15 |
|
|
I think what we saw was how Robin sees thing. Her prescience means she is non linear in her mind, though her body is moving through time normally. She's talking about people she meets in the future to people in the past and that's what annoyed Fitz so much. We saw the regular timeline in the flashbacks where they didn't go in the future, because there had to be a timeline where they didn't go. There is zero evidence they ever went in the flashback timeline, any future knowlage they have can come straight from robin.
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2018 04:00
|
|
|
twistedmentat posted:There is zero evidence they ever went in the flashback timeline, any future knowlage they have can come straight from robin. Then... how did they get back to the past?
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2018 04:04
|
|
|
CAPT. Rainbowbeard posted:Then... how did they get back to the past? Doctor Leopold Fitz never returned home.
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2018 04:10
|
|
|
CAPT. Rainbowbeard posted:Then... how did they get back to the past? They never left. The flashback was the linear timeline. It was what happens when they don't go to the future to find out how to stop the earth from being destroyed. Robin is the POV character for much of the episode, she's living both the shows now (SHIELD in cracked earth future) and the past (blue tinged May Mom past). That's why they cut from her as a little girl saying "watch out on your left" and then show her saying that to Daisy in the future who avoids the guy with the knife on her left. As far as we are concerned, the main timeline characters in the future have not gone back into the past yet. Enoch knew where SHIELD would be because Robin told him. She also told them they had to go into the future to save the past.
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2018 04:19
|
|
|
If Deke has an aunt named Beru, he's the Great-Grandson of Coul. Otherwise, I stand by my earlier, even more preposterous theory. The best part of time travel shenanigans is that since they never make any sense, the writers can do whatever. Maybe he's FitzSimmon's grandkid. Maybe he's Just A Guy. Maybe he's his own grandfather. My favorite question is who Daisy was yelling at in the Quinjet. Guessing another Daisy, but guesses on this stuff are meaningless. Dumb Black Panther Wishlist: I'm hoping the Vrellnexians are an unlikely random event in this timeline we're watching, and they gets dragged home with the team and end up somewhere on the version of Earth the show follows after all this. Then they show up in Black Panther and people who've seen SHIELD are all "oh poo poo, SHIELD finally matters in the MCU!" But the movie ends up leaving it vague, but Thanos probably did it.
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2018 04:29
|
|
|
RareAcumen posted:The only things we know for sure is Flint's gonna get juiced up on more teregen Crystal and vibrate the planet at a different frequency to Daisy's powers and prevent Earth's destruction. Except young Robin won't be dead and it's likely Graviton that fucks the planet fighting with Daisy. Flint might figure in there though. He definitely is needed to fix that monolith.
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2018 04:36
|
|
|
OK, I think I've got it my head how we can have Fitz time machine designer and Fitz Van Winkle. There's three key assumptions for this to work: * It's two separate timelines. The split point is Diner Abduction. (There's actually 3, but 2 for the show so far) * Daisy is NOT responsible for the Earth cracking. There's no footage, everyone just assumes based on her power. Graviton is responsible, so it happens in both. * The Robin in each timeline sees both timelines. In Timeline 1: No abduction, SHIELD is in hiding. Graviton rips the Earth apart (why, who knows?). Maybe Dasiy fights and loses. YoYo tired of hiding after cracking and goes to fight a lost cause. May hooks up with Robin just before (probably related to vision shared with her mother that they end up meeting). May clues in Simmons. Robin sees where SHIELD saves the day in the future, but isn't aware she can see multiple time-lines. Simmons and Fitz develop time machine, but this timeline is doomed since there's no team to send to the future. However, remember when Fitz is frustrated about "what if we don't finish" Simmons says "then we trust someone will". That someone is in Timeline2 In Timeline 2: Enoch somehow, someway gets wind of Robin Sets the plan in motion based on Robins visions to get most of team catapulted into the future. Fitz beauty rest. Graviton still fucks up the Earth. Robin continues to receive and communicate visions of both timelines, including the schematics for the Time Machine The Lighthouse survivors build Time Machine. Time Machine used to both displace past SHIELD to (*mumble number*) of days prior, and future crew back to just after that moment. Which then creates Timeline 3 SHIELD saves the day with Flint and Earth not destroyed. Proteus Jones fucked around with this message at 04:53 on Jan 23, 2018 |
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2018 04:50
|
|
|
I am pretty sure there's definitely a different universe/timeline at play here. In fact, if this is a different universe in the future it's a subtle but distinct difference that fixes a lot since the current SHIELD team is in fact in the same timeline with the past SHIELD team. The only reason that breaks is Fitz got there through stasis. ED: The little 616 in-joke definitely suggests it's an alternate something, though.
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2018 05:03
|
|
|
Blazing Ownager posted:I am pretty sure there's definitely a different universe/timeline at play here. In fact, if this is a different universe in the future it's a subtle but distinct difference that fixes a lot since the current SHIELD team is in fact in the same timeline with the past SHIELD team. The only reason that breaks is Fitz got there through stasis. Yeah, the only way I could reconcile Fitz designing it with Fitz seeing it for the first time in the future is multiple timelines. And the only way I could justify multiple timelines was Robin being able to see across them.
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2018 05:06
|
|
|
Proteus Jones posted:Yeah, the only way I could reconcile Fitz designing it with Fitz seeing it for the first time in the future is multiple timelines. In a lot of shows I'd say they'd never explain this or it was a plot hole but honestly despite the poo poo it gets for both the genre and rocky start, it's one of the smarter shows at least explaining this sort of thing (even if some of the explanations are near 4th wall 'Yeah, this is silly, roll with it' descriptions). The fact SHIELD has per-established you cannot change time and this has specifically been brought up several times in the last two episodes, I think we're probably going to get something like this as a canon explanation before it's over.
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2018 05:11
|
|
|
Oh, and Robin being able to see across timelines is also why her memory is all hosed up when she's old. She's remembering both Timeline 1 and Timeline 2 at the end.
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2018 05:14
|
|
|
twistedmentat posted:They never left. The flashback was the linear timeline. It was what happens when they don't go to the future to find out how to stop the earth from being destroyed. Robin is the POV character for much of the episode, she's living both the shows now (SHIELD in cracked earth future) and the past (blue tinged May Mom past). That's why they cut from her as a little girl saying "watch out on your left" and then show her saying that to Daisy in the future who avoids the guy with the knife on her left. I know one thing for 100% certain: this poo poo is confusing. There are just too many hints that they went to the future and came back and failed for me to accept that Robin, who can see the future, did not see them have future shenanigans and then come back. They're just so drat vague about stuff! EDIT: Yes, and the Fitz thing! CAPT. Rainbowbeard fucked around with this message at 05:33 on Jan 23, 2018 |
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2018 05:30
|
|
|
I love this show but this thread is making me hate it because this is me when I try to understand or enjoy time travel/alternate timeline TV stuff. That being said, From what I saw Fitz wasn't angry that Robin told him how Simmons dies, he was angry that Robin told him it AFTER Simmons had died. He was angry that Robin couldn't get it straight enough to warn him so he could have saved her. That's what broke him and his faith in all of this. Losing Simmons. The flashbacks all seemed linear to me. I don't know what he meant by "we've done it before" but I'm not thinking that he was speaking literally. Maybe he was. Maybe they'd done loops and he remembered. But I kind of read it as the old "if I build a time machine come back to this point and tell me" thing. He never believed in time travel the same way he never believed in magic and it seems to make sense to me that Fitz would consider time travel a futile effort because if it had worked they wouldn't be in this mess. Or something. I dunno. I hate time travel/alternate timeline stuff. I guess May remembers what happened in her past/future with Robin? Or maybe Robin just told her that stuff and she believed it because she had faith? gently caress, man...  I love you, SHIELD, but thank god your pods are short and I can trust this will get some resolution soon. STAC Goat fucked around with this message at 05:35 on Jan 23, 2018 |
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2018 05:31
|
|
|
She told him how Gemma dies, not died. He freaks out because now he knows and that he also knows he can't stop it.
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2018 05:39
|
|
|
I disagree. He says "she told me how Gemma dies" because that's how Robin told it. From a present/future tense because that's how she sees it. But the entire point of the episode was that she sees everything out of order and can't line it up right. So it read simply to me as Fitz being angry that she told him how Gemma dies AFTER she died and Fitz being furious about that in his grief. I could be wrong but that's how it read to me and I just rewatched the scene and it still plays that way to me. Fitz: She just described Jemma's death. Why don't you tell me how I'm supposed to live with that? Robin: I thought I already told you. May: You know she can't help it... she sees death like her father but she also sees a way out. That's why you designed the machine! But this is why I hate time travel and alternate timelines and shows that do stuff like this and the threads that follow. I hate all this Lost stuff. edit: On a third rewatch Fitz says "Voss couldn't change it" and Daisy "saw the aftermath and still destroyed the world." So yeah, maybe you're all right. I dunno. This stuff really does just kill my interest in a show I love. STAC Goat fucked around with this message at 05:53 on Jan 23, 2018 |
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2018 05:46
|
|
|
I don't understand why people think frozen Fitz and a Fitz returned from the future overlapping are some sort of paradox. Fitz's personal timeline does a bit of a curly-Q, that's all.
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2018 06:04
|
|
|
I really need to rewatch this episode because I had no idea what the gently caress was going on.
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2018 07:17
|
|
|
STAC Goat posted:I disagree. He says "she told me how Gemma dies" because that's how Robin told it. From a present/future tense because that's how she sees it. But the entire point of the episode was that she sees everything out of order and can't line it up right. So it read simply to me as Fitz being angry that she told him how Gemma dies AFTER she died and Fitz being furious about that in his grief. How you came up with such hogwash i'll never know.
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2018 08:17
|
|
|
e
3 DONG HORSE fucked around with this message at 08:46 on Jan 23, 2018 |
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2018 08:41
|
|
|
STAC Goat posted:I disagree. He says "she told me how Gemma dies" because that's how Robin told it. From a present/future tense because that's how she sees it. But the entire point of the episode was that she sees everything out of order and can't line it up right. So it read simply to me as Fitz being angry that she told him how Gemma dies AFTER she died and Fitz being furious about that in his grief. If you hate it so much just chill and let the show explain. You don't have to get into internet arguments about it. There's no prize for figuring it out.
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2018 11:18
|
|
|
I can't wait for Flint to save the day by manipulating the Earth into a non Newtonian fluid that can't be shattered.
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2018 14:13
|
|
|
RareAcumen posted:I can't wait for Flint to save the day by manipulating the Earth into a non Newtonian fluid that can't be shattered. It all returns to nothing, it all comes tumbling down, tumbling down, tumbling down
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2018 15:32
|
|
|
Proteus Jones posted:In Timeline 2: So where did Enoch come from?
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2018 16:05
|
|
|
spookygonk posted:So where did Enoch come from? He already said he's an observer, so he's kind of always been there. He just decided to get involved. Think of him as a poor man's Uatu with no cosmic power.
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2018 16:09
|
|
|
There are actually four timelines, the one where Trunks goes back in time is actually separate from the timeline that Cell comes from
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2018 16:25
|
|
|
Pyroi posted:There are actually four timelines, the one where Trunks goes back in time is actually separate from the timeline that Cell comes from lol
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2018 16:42
|
|
|
All this speculation is fun and cool. Don't take it seriously, let the show tell you what it wants to tell you, and enjoy the ride.
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2018 16:47
|
|
|
Absolutely. Most of the fun in the SHIELD threads has been the "throw everything on the wall" speculations. And occasionally, one of us is right on the money. But yeah, don't take any of it seriously. My post was just how I untangled the seeming paradoxes in my head (I may even make a timeline diagram for the hell of it). I'm sure they have a completely different, batshit way of explaining it and it will be cool and fun. Or they just don't and we the audience just need to roll with it. I'm more than willing to do that with this super-spy, future-tech show.
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2018 16:55
|
|
|
My money is on Coulson ghostriding Zephyr.
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2018 17:17
|
|
|
hiddenriverninja posted:My money is on Coulson ghostriding Zephyr. If this is how he dies, it will be worth it.
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2018 17:27
|
|
|
I can't believe Coulson makes a deal with Dormammu just to get the Earth fixed.
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2018 17:28
|
|
|
Proteus Jones posted:Yeah, the only way I could reconcile Fitz designing it with Fitz seeing it for the first time in the future is multiple timelines. I bet there's been 4 or 5 timelines by now where the team have jumped forwards to the future, discovered that the Earth is doomed and gone back to the past to try and avert the catastrophe and failed but managed to alter the timeline and change the future each attempt. One of the early timelines causes someone to go further back in time and create the Lighthouse and one of the later attempts leads to Flint being born, both of which are crucial to the team being able to save the Earth. This will obviously be the final timeline where everything is finally in place and they'll be able to stop the Earth from falling apart. Deke is also a key element in some way, possibly becoming his own grandfather and ensuring that his family studies physics and engineering (and passing down that chunk of the monolith) so his father can complete Fitz's work on the time machine. Fitz is left behind each time because he's the inventor of the monolith portal and it'd be paradoxical for him to use it to go forwards in time before it gets made.
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2018 18:01
|
|
|
Pyroi posted:There are actually four timelines, the one where Trunks goes back in time is actually separate from the timeline that Cell comes from Exactly VictorianQueerLit posted:Basically it's Dragonball Z rules of time travel and not Back to the Future. It sucks for everyone living in the lighthouse but their timeline will always exist. The best the team can do is The team will then go back to the diner timeline they are originally from and fix everything. Destroyed timeline Fitz still existed and was super pissed off he had to be in a destroyed timeline because he assumed if time travel worked you could alter you own timeline instead of creating a new and different one. I guess it's kind of depressing though because the original, unchanged timeline without any outside interference was the world being destroyed and everyone dying horribly. So now the show is about an alternate SHIELD team in a third(?) timeline getting a chance to live a different future.
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2018 18:01
|
|
|
VictorianQueerLit posted:So now the show is about an alternate SHIELD team in a third(?) timeline getting a chance to live a different future. The show has probably been about an alternate SHIELD team in a different timeline right from the end of last season. 
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2018 18:04
|
|
|
Wait wait wait. So are Enoch and Stan Lee buddies? Do they have the same relationship to the Watchers established in GOTG2?
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2018 18:12
|
|
|
Snowglobe of Doom posted:The show has probably been about an alternate SHIELD team in a different timeline right from the end of last season. It's going to end like the Newhart Show (which is hands down the BEST series ending ever) Coulson will bolt upright in bed gasping for breath. While checking to make sure his arm is really his arm, his bed companion rolls over. It's May and she asks what's wrong. "I just had the strangest dream, honey" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZgdUWXf8jJk Proteus Jones fucked around with this message at 18:19 on Jan 23, 2018 |
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2018 18:15
|
|
|
Snowglobe of Doom posted:Fitz is left behind each time because he's the inventor of the monolith portal and it'd be paradoxical for him to use it to go forwards in time before it gets made. I don't think paradox means what you think it means. The Fitz who gets left behind and takes the slow way to the future is not yet the Fitz who builds the machine used on the other end, they don't thaw him out and erase his memories partway through. He goes to the future, studies the machine, gets everyone back, then builds it. He's left behind because rescuing them in the future requires him to arrive separately. Everything we've seen so far fits into the "one timeline, stable time loop" view of things. The only reason we have to believe otherwise is because it's a TV show and they're not going to permanently blow up the Earth.
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2018 18:31
|
|
|
Bruceski posted:He goes to the future, studies the machine, gets everyone back, then builds it. That's definitely a causal loop, which is paradoxical.
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2018 19:04
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 25, 2024 16:15 |
|
|
It's impossible to have a paradox if Aida just programs it that way. Come on, guys.
|
|
#
?
Jan 23, 2018 19:23
|
|