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Phobeste posted:Stealing this for cyberpunk names thread. Be my guest, I was going to use that for my new SA name or Twitter handle but I'm going with Ty Bitcoin $ign instead. Also wish I was writing Python and not a mix of Scala and Groovy because my job is gluing several modules together and amalgamating lovely fat jars to be run as Spark jobs scheduled by a 5 year old OSS project not managed anymore
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Jan 26, 2018 01:49
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Hey so you know what's fuckin' exhausting? Having to keep tasks lined up in front of a productive engineer. I'm four days into being mini-TL for this project and I feel like that claymation GIF of laying track directly in front of a locomotive.
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Jan 26, 2018 02:34
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:Hey so you know what's fuckin' exhausting? Having to keep tasks lined up in front of a productive engineer. I'm four days into being mini-TL for this project and I feel like that claymation GIF of laying track directly in front of a locomotive. I'm convinced that TL is how managers trick you into secretly auditioning for manager ladder. I won't do it, I refuse! I just want to feel like not a fraud and write some actual code now and then.
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Jan 26, 2018 02:47
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Pollyanna posted:There’s nothing wrong with muting Slack and Emails after work hours. A company that asks you to do that without your explicit consent is pretty lovely, unless you’re running a critical system, and let’s be honest - most things we work on are not PagerDuty-at-2-am critical. If my company every asked people to work past 5 or 6 or be available (unless purposely planned) there would be a revolt. It's safe to say that if it's later than 4:30 and the person you need input from is not in the office or online, then you only have juche until the next morning.
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Jan 26, 2018 03:52
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Good Will Hrunting posted:I still think King poo poo of Fuckwad Mountain will have too much control and I'll end up quitting just maybe a few months later than I would now If this is actually true, then you should bounce as soon as possible. Staying those extra months will just be lost time, you'll regret it.
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Jan 26, 2018 04:16
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:Hey so you know what's fuckin' exhausting? Having to keep tasks lined up in front of a productive engineer. I'm four days into being mini-TL for this project and I feel like that claymation GIF of laying track directly in front of a locomotive. Haha, yeah, it can be. It's a good problem to have though. Much better than the opposite problem. Time to teach them how to lay their own tracks. Give him/her responsibility for a big piece of the project and let him/her loose. I try not to break tasks down below 1 week when I'm TL. A month is better. Let the engineers break their own tasks down into smaller pieces for you and then help anyone who seems to be having trouble breaking things down into no more than day-sized tasks.
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Jan 26, 2018 04:44
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LLSix posted:Haha, yeah, it can be. It's a good problem to have though. Much better than the opposite problem. Time to teach them how to lay their own tracks. Give him/her responsibility for a big piece of the project and let him/her loose. Part of the difficulty in this case is that we're also ramping up the engineer in question. They're already experienced and accomplished (in fact they're at the same ladder level as I am), they just don't know the system well. As they get more ramped-up, I'll be able to hand them vaguer tasks and let them figure things out themselves, but for now they need a little more guidance. But yeah, I will absolutely, any day, take a dev that knows their poo poo over a dev that needs their hand held. mrmcd posted:I'm convinced that TL is how managers trick you into secretly auditioning for manager ladder. That's the thing though -- I've been doing super-technical design work these past four days, trying to nail down how the system ought to work in enough detail that I can hand it to other people to implement. It's been a lot of thinking and a lot of talking, just not any coding.
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Jan 26, 2018 05:23
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So according to this example (i.e. unfilled) contract template this one recruiter agency is giving me, my hourly wages for the consulting job would be "less all applicable federal, state and local tax withholdings". I assume this means that the hourly wage is pre-tax, and therefore I wouldn't get exactly $XX/hr? I was under the impression that it would be otherwise. That sours the deal a good bit, but maybe I misunderstood how this semi-W-2 setup works. It's also got a clause in there that the company (i.e. recruiting agency) can pull me off that project whenever they want, even if the client wants me there. Not sure I like that, I can imagine them figuring that I'd be useful in a totally different place and just shunting me elsewhere as we please. This might not be a good deal after all. EDIT: Also something about working "only those hours requested, instructed, or approved by the client", which seems like a way to avoid paying overtime to me. Pollyanna fucked around with this message at 19:51 on Jan 26, 2018 |
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Jan 26, 2018 19:47
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Pollyanna posted:So according to this example (i.e. unfilled) contract template this one recruiter agency is giving me, my hourly wages for the consulting job would be "less all applicable federal, state and local tax withholdings". I assume this means that the hourly wage is pre-tax, and therefore I wouldn't get exactly $XX/hr? I was under the impression that it would be otherwise. That sours the deal a good bit, but maybe I misunderstood how this semi-W-2 setup works. What the gently caress? This is how every W2 ever works. Your hourly wage or salary is ALWAYS the before tax and withholding number. quote:It's also got a clause in there that the company (i.e. recruiting agency) can pull me off that project whenever they want, even if the client wants me there. Not sure I like that, I can imagine them figuring that I'd be useful in a totally different place and just shunting me elsewhere as we please. This might not be a good deal after all. That's pretty standard for contracting companies. In practice though, if the client likes you and your work, you'll probably stay at that client. edit: quote:EDIT: Also something about working "only those hours requested, instructed, or approved by the client", which seems like a way to avoid paying overtime to me. That also means you won't be working overtime.
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Jan 26, 2018 19:52
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The Fool posted:What the gently caress? This is how every W2 ever works. Your hourly wage or salary is ALWAYS the before tax and withholding number. I'm a dope, then, and I got confused. quote:That's pretty standard for contracting companies. In practice though, if the client likes you and your work, you'll probably stay at that client. I hope that's the case - I just feel a little nervous leaving that avenue open. quote:That also means you won't be working overtime. Doesn't that just mean I won't be working overtime *that I get comped for*? I can see being pressured to work more than that and being let go if I refuse.
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Jan 26, 2018 19:54
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It means they'll probably never ask you to work extra because they don't want to pay for it. Unlike a salaried position, you do actually get paid for all that extra bullshit if you work on a Saturday.
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Jan 26, 2018 20:00
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Pollyanna posted:Doesn't that just mean I won't be working overtime *that I get comped for*? I can see being pressured to work more than that and being let go if I refuse. This is one thing that contract positions are usually better about. The client company isn't going to ask you to work more hours because any hours you work are going to be billed by your contracting company. The contracting company doesn't have any incentive to have you work hours that they can't bill for.
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Jan 26, 2018 20:04
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True. I hope that's how it shakes out in practice. Hmm, given that there's also no PTO, I think I'll negotiate for an extra few dollars an hour or something in exchange. Right now, it's not quite compelling enough...
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Jan 26, 2018 20:04
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It means you aren't the one they try to pressure to work more. Whenever they ask you, you say "SURE NO PROBLEM I'll of course have to write down the hours I work and tell my boss (which isn't you) how much I worked". And your boss isn't going to ask you to work unbilled hours, as that means THEY get paid less.Pollyanna posted:True. I hope that's how it shakes out in practice. Don't say that's why you are negotiating, you'll look like an amateur again. Contractors don't get PTO, they are supposed to figure that out themselves. Just say you think you are worth X and go from there.
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Jan 26, 2018 20:07
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Conversely, these same pressures are why you should never work for an agency. They create insane project schedules, demand extra work, disregard your project planning recommendations, and bill the client for all of it while you get nothing.
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Jan 26, 2018 20:12
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rt4 posted:Conversely, these same pressures are why you should never work for an agency. They create insane project schedules, demand extra work, disregard your project planning recommendations, and bill the client for all of it while you get nothing. You'd get paid for the hours that you work, no more, no less.
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Jan 26, 2018 20:13
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Sorry, I meant full-time salaried work at an agency
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Jan 26, 2018 20:15
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Feeling a bit better about it now, thanks. This all assumes they're actually interested, of course...we'll see what happens.
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Jan 26, 2018 20:17
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Remember that accepting an offer does not obligate you to shut down your job search. (I mean, unless that's in the contract, which would be concerning.) You wouldn't want to be interviewing heavily your first week on the job, but if you have an offer to start in 2 weeks you can say "yes" and keep right on interviewing.
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Jan 26, 2018 20:49
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Skandranon posted:Contractors don't get PTO, they are supposed to figure that out themselves. W2 contractors might get PTO - it depends on how the agency is set up.
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Jan 26, 2018 22:50
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I would be a contractor in the sense that I am contracted out to a client that the company chooses and paid whatever the company negotiates with the client (though I’m pretty sure I have a say in that matter) - but a W-2 otherwise, at-will and everything. No PTO, but I have the option of taking the 401k and health insurance of the recruiter agency. Not sure how I feel about that yet.
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Jan 26, 2018 23:21
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Pollyanna posted:paid whatever the company negotiates with the client (though I’m pretty sure I have a say in that matter) You should be less sure.
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Jan 26, 2018 23:23
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Pollyanna posted:I would be a contractor in the sense that I am contracted out to a client that the company chooses and paid whatever the company negotiates with the client (though I’m pretty sure I have a say in that matter) - but a W-2 otherwise, at-will and everything. No PTO, but I have the option of taking the 401k and health insurance of the recruiter agency. you need to take your employment agreement and talk to someone who can walk you through this. i think you are confused
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Jan 26, 2018 23:29
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Pollyanna posted:I would be a contractor in the sense that I am contracted out to a client that the company chooses and paid whatever the company negotiates with the client (though I’m pretty sure I have a say in that matter) - but a W-2 otherwise, at-will and everything. No PTO, but I have the option of taking the 401k and health insurance of the recruiter agency. Initech needs programmers, but doesn't want to bring them on the payroll for some reason. This is reasonably common at larger companies where contractors and employees have totally different budgets, as well as in the government. A hiring manager at Initech contacts AwfulCoders, a staffing agency, and says they'll buy 4 programmers from them at the agency's going rate. Let's say that's $160/hr. AwfulCoders doesn't have these people sitting around doing nothing, but they do have a staff of recruiters who go out and find programmers to hire as W2 employees with an hourly rate. AwfulCoders offers the job at, let's say, $80/hr. The difference between what Initech pays AwfulCoders and what AwfulCoders pays the programmer covers the overhead in sourcing/recruiting/vetting/providing benefits for the employee, as well as the agency's profit. Unless something extremely non-standard is going on, that's the basic outline of what's happening.
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Jan 26, 2018 23:53
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fantastic in plastic posted:Unless something extremely non-standard is going on, that's the basic outline of what's happening. We do this a lot. Getting a full time employee involves coordination with HR and the CFO, separate candidate interviews with HR and the CFO, a series of tests, and a pre-employment medical. It can take months. If I need hands on keyboards in anything less than 8 weeks it'll be a contractor and if they're good it's always easier to onboard when they're already in the building.
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Jan 27, 2018 01:01
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Its also incredibly common when work is identified as having a definitive start and end date. No sense bringing on FTE if you're going to be casting around for work for them to do in 6 months time. With vendors, it's a clean break.
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Jan 27, 2018 01:03
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90% are H1B body shops too, filled with some of the most miserable people in the industry.
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Jan 27, 2018 02:22
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mrmcd posted:90% are H1B body shops too, filled with some of the most miserable people in the industry. I sure as hell hope I’m not one of those miserable people. I’m probably overthinking all of this. Ultimately doesn’t matter if the client isn’t interested, but if they are then it can’t hurt to try it out.
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Jan 27, 2018 03:07
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The only thing to worry about with contracting that I think hasn't been brought up here yet, is that sometimes the client will not actually have any work for you and might send you home early. I did 2 weeks of part-time contracting during my recent job search, and maybe half the time the client (an agency) called me early in the morning to let me know that they hadn't gotten in materials needed for me to work, so to not bother coming in. Fortunately I didn't need the money, I just wanted to test-drive working for an agency - but it's a thing. If I were to contract ever again (I probably won't unless I'm desperate for money), I'd negotiate with the contracting firm that they will guarantee I get paid a minimum of 40 hours per week or something.
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Jan 29, 2018 13:35
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metztli posted:The only thing to worry about with contracting that I think hasn't been brought up here yet, is that sometimes the client will not actually have any work for you and might send you home early. Usually instead of guaranteeing hours, you negotiate to 1.5-2x your “normal” pay. If you bill more, they bill [even] more. But they can only bill hours the client has. By the time people call an agency to fix their poo poo, they’re no longer price conscious. I still prefer more stable work on codebases I can try to keep from getting to the place you’ll see in agency work though.
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Jan 29, 2018 14:27
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Thanks to very worker friendly laws in my locality, the contractor is mostly in place so the company doesn't have to put someone on payroll. It is a budgeting thing mostly. Result is me getting twice the pay with only a fraction of the uncertainty. This only works in a market where the demand is far greater than supply.
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Jan 29, 2018 16:12
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Pollyanna, don't take the/a/any contracting job. Also go to therapy for fucks sake.
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Jan 29, 2018 17:43
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metztli posted:The only thing to worry about with contracting that I think hasn't been brought up here yet, is that sometimes the client will not actually have any work for you and might send you home early. leper khan posted:Usually instead of guaranteeing hours, you negotiate to 1.5-2x your “normal” pay. If you bill more, they bill [even] more. But they can only bill hours the client has. This isn't a 1099 contracting job or an agency - this is more of a consultancy thing. The prospective workplace by law has to go through a recruiting agency to find its workers (government stuff) and as a result the recruiting agency I'm working with is proposing a W-2 under them, and contracting me out to their client (the prospective workplace) for 40 hours a week, approved by the client. This means it's an hourly job with health benefits and 401k but no PTO, and when I interviewed with the client they said they all stick to 40/week - so I'm not concerned about being sent home with no work to do. (Should I be?) I would be asking the same hourly pay as any typical W-2 job, rather than 1.5x~2x. Every new employee at the client is under this policy, and at the end of the contract they can be hired on full-time by the client, which I won't count on but implies that it isn't weird or anything. I would be working directly with the client like any other full-time employee, just being indirectly employed until the end of the contract. Mao Zedong Thot posted:Pollyanna, don't take the/a/any contracting job. Also go to therapy for fucks sake. I don't see how I need therapy, but I've sworn off E/N so never mind that.
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Jan 29, 2018 18:10
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Pollyanna posted:This means it's an hourly job with health benefits and 401k but no PTO, and when I interviewed with the client they said they all stick to 40/week - so I'm not concerned about being sent home with no work to do. (Should I be?) Yes, I would clarify whether "stick to 40 hours a week" means "we don't do overtime" or it means "if the client doesn't have 40 hours of work to bill then we don't have 40 hours to pay you." But yeah I'm going to join the chorus here, I guess if it's "take this job or sell plasma" then take the job, but otherwise I see this as being fraught with peril.
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Jan 29, 2018 18:34
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you need to clarify whether you're a normal salaried w-2 worker of the agency or whether you only get paid for hours billed
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Jan 29, 2018 19:20
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Only paid for hours billed, which as I understand it is a double-edged sword: won't get paid if there's no work, but I have no obligation to work overtime, either. Question is whether that's a decent tradeoff... Either way, I won't be stopping my search just for this one job.
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Jan 29, 2018 19:29
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Pollyanna posted:This isn't a 1099 contracting job or an agency - this is more of a consultancy thing. The prospective workplace by law has to go through a recruiting agency to find its workers (government stuff) and as a result the recruiting agency I'm working with is proposing a W-2 under them, and contracting me out to their client (the prospective workplace) for 40 hours a week, approved by the client. This means it's an hourly job with health benefits and 401k but no PTO, and when I interviewed with the client they said they all stick to 40/week - so I'm not concerned about being sent home with no work to do. (Should I be?) I would be asking the same hourly pay as any typical W-2 job, rather than 1.5x~2x. Every new employee at the client is under this policy, and at the end of the contract they can be hired on full-time by the client, which I won't count on but implies that it isn't weird or anything. Accenture bills themselves as “consultants” too. It’s not about how you’re taxed, it’s about the nature of the work. You’re basically describing the boilerplate business model of agency work and ignoring everyone saying “I’d need to at least 2x my salary (and could get it) to make agency work worth it”. Nothing you’ve said indicates that the job and codebase aren’t heaping dumpster fires. It’s not my career though, so go ahead. It’s certainly better than sitting around doing nothing.  Everything they rip out; whether PTO, holidays, work location, hours (too many or too few), etc should pump up your hourly.
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Jan 29, 2018 19:36
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Fair enough. This opportunity is already kinda sketch to begin with, and I'm rapidly losing interest in it if it's not a direct hire.
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Jan 29, 2018 20:07
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leper khan posted:“I’d need to at least 2x my salary (and could get it) to make agency work worth it”. The 2x salary is to account for benefits that are included in the job Pollyanna is interviewing for. This stupid all or nothing poo poo is what causes people to get laughed out of the office when they demand an outrageous salary for what might otherwise be a perfectly acceptable job. The job might be amazing and it might be poo poo but either way it needs to be viewed with realistic expectations and an understanding of what the actual tradeoffs are instead of telling her to she needs to be paid a quarter of a million dollars for a W2 job with benefits to be worth it.
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Jan 29, 2018 20:20
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Yes, that's what I mean by W-2. There's no PTO, but there is benefits/insurance and a 401k (for however useful those are). This all comes down to "am I going to get regular work" and so far that seems to be bearing out, but I'm gonna be real careful and ask a hell of a lot of questions before going over the contract. I will determine whether it's worth it once I have all the information. EDIT: According to the example contract, the payment is "$XX.XX per hour, less federal, state, and local tax witholdings" - so it's already got taxes factored into it. Example math: for the high end of $120k per year, it'd work out to $62.50 an hour, same as any W-2. Pollyanna fucked around with this message at 20:40 on Jan 29, 2018 |
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Jan 29, 2018 20:24
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