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Comstar at least had centuries of 'Oh yeah, the factories on Terra weren't as badly damaged as we claimed'. WoB went from being 'splinter faction' to 'Strongest individual Inner Sphere power with crazy new tech' in just over a decade.
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Jan 26, 2018 22:27
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Having the WoB be literal space terrorists who'd wiped their bases off the records and were doing bad guy things would have been better than a new ultra-fanatic army and navy out of nowhere that was just strong enough to provide fodder for the nominal heroes but not able to actually accomplish anything meaningful.
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Jan 26, 2018 22:27
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Really though, it would be pretty interesting to see where an enterprising game designer could take the Clans with a "unique strengths with corresponding trade-offs" perspective rather than just "flat-out better in just about every aspect". You've basically got a perfect set-up for it. The Clans are all about formalised, short, high-intensity combats where your performance and conduct are just as important (or even more so) as whatever you're actually fighting about. Losses are accepted and even encouraged as a way to separate wheat from chaff, and replacements are reasonably easy to come by. In the IS things are much more cautious as your war machines are not nearly as replaceable and you only really want to commit to a fight if the prize is actually worth it. Fighting smarter rather than harder, including sneaky and "dishonorable" shenanigans, is the name of the game (well, depending on the House in question). That's a pretty interesting contrast to begin with. Both sides have a fundamentally very different outlook on warfare, and correspondingly different doctrines. That's something that could be represented quite well all the way down to the tactical/personal level through correspondingly specialised tech and mech designs, rather than something that mostly just seems to matter in strategical contexts. Or, well, it could be terribly boring garbage. But it'd be cool to just see somebody give it a solid go and see how things might pan out.
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Jan 26, 2018 22:28
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I mean, they kind of did though if you get into any of the Clans stuff beyond the raw stats on their mechs. The whole batchall process, for example, and how it was used on everything from allocating resources to planetary invasions to a pair of star commanders bidding to get an assignment to figuring out how a blood name duel between an elemental and a mechwarrior is actually going to work. They also get pretty deep into just how dysfunctional the society is with its hard divisions between the warriors and everyone else and this has some very real consequences down the road for clan politics and policies. There is some straight up pants on head retarded poo poo that goes down in Clan space that makes sense because of how their culture etc. is structured. Of course all of this is in the fluff. It's heavily used by the people writing source books and novels but doesn't translate as well to game mechanics. You could make them pretty major game mechanics if you were playing a 100% clan campaign (batchall being an obvious mechanic to handicap yourself for better post-mission rewards, kind of similar to low drop weight bonuses in the MC games). Working them into a generic IS vs Clan situation would be a bit more challenging, though.
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Jan 26, 2018 22:35
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Cyrano4747 posted:Of course all of this is in the fluff. It's heavily used by the people writing source books and novels but doesn't translate as well to game mechanics. You could make them pretty major game mechanics if you were playing a 100% clan campaign (batchall being an obvious mechanic to handicap yourself for better post-mission rewards, kind of similar to low drop weight bonuses in the MC games). Working them into a generic IS vs Clan situation would be a bit more challenging, though.
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Jan 26, 2018 22:38
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AAAAA! Real Muenster posted:This is why a bunch of us want a Clan-only Battletech game in the vein of what we will be getting here with HBS:B. It would be interesting at the very least. Being clan-only didn't seem to hurt MW2 that much, although it's always the Mercs stuff that the franchise gravitates towards.
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Jan 26, 2018 22:40
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Everyone buy 1000 copies. In success all things are possible.
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Jan 26, 2018 22:42
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Cyrano4747 posted:It would be interesting at the very least. Being clan-only didn't seem to hurt MW2 that much, although it's always the Mercs stuff that the franchise gravitates towards. sebmojo posted:Everyone buy 1000 copies. In success all things are possible.
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Jan 26, 2018 22:43
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If they do remake them they need to reproduce in the pause bug for collision damage.
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Jan 26, 2018 22:45
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AAAAA! Real Muenster posted:I would pay for a modern re-skin of both clan MW2 games. They were great for their time but I have no idea how well they would age, but I played them in my really early teens and was Real Bad at them. Oddly, I replayed MW2 Mercs into my late teens but never bothered with the other ones. Anyway, I mentioned that because apparently one of the things you did was trials of position but I never read into or understood what I was actually doing at that age, so something now where I perceive it better and understand whats going on would be really neat, to me. Netmech is a thing and people still play it. Graphically it has not aged well at all but gameplay wise it's still fun if you have a joystick.
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Jan 26, 2018 22:45
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Taerkar posted:When it was happening it very much felt like they were making GBS threads all over the TT to push out the clicktech stuff and tried to retroactively justify it. All of the WoB goes from being an annoying and dangerous nuisance to MILLIONS OF TROOPS AND WARSHIPS EVERYWHERE SUDDENLY made the initial clan invasion look good in comparison. They didn't, actually. They were being built up as a threat with troops able to deploy to major Combine planets as early as 1996--it's just that 9/11 happened and they got put on the back-burner for half-a-decade in favor of the FedCom Civil War.
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Jan 26, 2018 22:58
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Drake_263 posted:Fair reminder that the primary reason Clan LRMs don't have a minimum range in the tabletop game is because somebody typoed it when they were first writing the Clan weapons table, and when after the book was released they went 'Uhh that's not right we should fix that', the BT community's collective response was 'it's already in the book I have my hands on my ears, laaa laa la laaaa, I can't hear you'. BT Nerds - Taking full advantage of a typo mistake is more important than a fun well balanced game.
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Jan 26, 2018 23:45
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vorebane posted:BT Nerds - Taking full advantage of a typo mistake is more important than a fun well balanced game. In the same vein, Clan technology was supposedly balanced via batchall (players were supposed to figure out the minimum possible force they needed to actually win) and zellbringen. If you look at the actual rules for zellbringen, they're pretty restrictive - you choose one target to focus on, you form off into a little duel, you're supposed to always be obligated to fire all weapons that have a theoretical chance of hitting the target, no melee.. it makes for some pretty rigid tactics. Clan mechs were supposed to be these super samurai with a complex code of honor - essentially you're playing hard mode, but you've got some great toys to balance it out. In practice, balancing mechanics via fluff never works, and I'm pretty sure like 95% of 'Clan' players looked through the zellbringen rules, then went 'gently caress it, I'm actually playing plucky IS mercs who somehow managed to salvage multiple Clan mechs in perfect condition'. IS pilots in Clan mechs = no batchall or zellbringen = the gloves come off.
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Jan 27, 2018 13:56
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Gwaihir posted:I love all the advanced tech and fun toys but it flat requires a good GM setting up the scenarios. For random games I just liked picking whatever BV number and using megamek's random army generator to combat my own inherent ultra spergy mech construction and composition tendencies. It's a vicious cycle you keep hearing about in Btech that you are working hard to avoid. "Ugh. My players are assholes who keep salvaging piles of clan tech and assault mechs!... Time to throw even more Clan tech and assault mechs at them to show them who's boss!... Oh my god now they have even more Clan tech and atlasses, who could have foreseen this!?" Yeah. It's a fine line between the mentality of doing a good honest GM fight fighting against "Ugh, my entitled players want a holy avenger at level 1" poo poo, and GMs spiking that into the ground for "Stop asking for a magic weapon you munchkin poo poo!... No I won't stop throwing monsters that require a magic weapon to harm at you in the meantime, you gotta earn it!" mentalities. Section Z fucked around with this message at 14:27 on Jan 27, 2018 |
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Jan 27, 2018 14:18
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Its not hard to balance in btech. If it’s a regular military campaign rear end the salvage goes to the rear somewhere and is never seen again. If it’s mercy you make salvage part of the contract which can lead to hilarious poo poo with cash poor mercs. It also leads to cool story poo poo like are we going to honor the contract or keep this lostech laser we found and risk a very unhappy employer? Of course your players have to not be complete assholes.
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Jan 27, 2018 16:22
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So when exactly was this coming out again?
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Jan 27, 2018 17:49
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"Early 2018" is all we know right now. They did finally take down the Beta PVP servers, weeks after pulling the Beta, so they could update them. Possibly a good sign.
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Jan 27, 2018 18:22
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vorebane posted:BT Nerds - Taking full advantage of a typo mistake is more important than a fun well balanced game. On the other hand, the "days before ClanTech" people pine for was a span of about 3 years from 1986-1989. BattleTech was never balanced in any meaningful fashion and the Clans being as unbalanced as they are got us the pretty good BV system and the current, improved (but still not perfect) BV 2.0 The real reason BattleTech suffered is because FASA wanted to make it a game where every specific circumstance had a playable rule backing it up. This was an attempt to emulate TSR's splatbook publishing, which is a game Catalyst is still kinda-sorta playing even today. You could play a game of football with BattleMechs using the rules-as-written with minimal house-ruling and that sort of kludge, while amusing, is the reason the game has such a barrier to entry. It doesn't matter if two experienced players can play a 12v12 in two hours when two new players are going to struggle to play a 4v4 in the same amount of time. Then again, I'm a BT fan who admits the series either needs a reboot or a 200+ year timeskip to even out the weapon and engine imbalances to streamline play. Tabletop stats still should have only minimal impact on any video game (they should influence, not dictate, design decisions). I'm glad the guys at Harebrained Schemes understand this, which is why--of all the BattleTech properties--this game is the one I have the most confidence in.
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Jan 27, 2018 18:57
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PoptartsNinja posted:On the other hand, the "days before ClanTech" people pine for was a span of about 3 years from 1986-1989. BattleTech was never balanced in any meaningful fashion and the Clans being as unbalanced as they are got us the pretty good BV system and the current, improved (but still not perfect) BV 2.0 200 year timeskip... to the past? 
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Jan 27, 2018 19:02
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It's worth noting in a game you CAN code in the Clan's rules of warfare. Say we get the Clan campaign. Make it so you have an Honor value. In order to increase the Honor value, you need to follow the Clan's traditional rules of warfare: 1. Once you engage a target you can engage no other until the target is destroyed, UNLESS you are fired upon by a second enemy. 2. Firing upon an enemy (or being fired upon) constitutes a challenge, and that enemy is now your target. 3. You cannot engage a target that is already engaged with another. You must wait. 4. If you are fired upon by a second enemy, or if you fire upon an already engaged target, all rules are off and the battle degrades into a free-for-all. If you are the one initiating the unhonorable attack, you lose honor. Make it so you must batchall. Make it so you must bid. Every pilot and Mech gets a value. The competition bids down their values, you've got to come in under. Make it so the Inner Sphere doesn't understand the process... at first. Then they do. And most shamedly, they lie. They set traps. And you're still expected to honor your original bid.
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Jan 27, 2018 19:18
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I still contend that Zellbrigen should not exist, because even if you can code it, it's not fun. Rules that exist to solely make you pay a fun-tax so you can use stronger gear mean the game is poorly balanced poo poo. Bidding is fun, and dynamic. Having "glory" as an abstract concept that determines your value in Clan society, linked to how well you do with how cautious you are in your bidding is a neat fluff concept that can work in a campaign style game. They should obviously tweak Clan weaponry to be a bit less flat-out busted when we get a Battletech Clan game, and then make the Bidding where you determine your honor/glory. Roll restrictions into the bidding system has challenges that get you extra Glory/Honor modifier for taking them and succeeding, and a malus for taking one and then abandoning it mid fight. Did you bid away your PPCs and then decide it was more important to snipe that mech the enemy has with LRMs that has been playing peek-a-boo with you over a hill top? Well your 15% Glory bonus just turned into a 20% glory malus for that mission. Bid away melee, or your ability to shoot targets that have been knocked down, or the Right Arm weapons on all your mechs. A STATIC set of retarded, non-optional restrictions attempting to balance weapons is pointless and unfun. Most people will just try and find whatever way around the pointless rule system they can. Rewarding you for being willing to put yourself at a bigger disadvantage makes more sense both with the Clan mindset ("I'm the best warrior there is, and I'll fight outnumbered 2-1 and without any shots over 7 hexes away to prove it!") and is more engaging to the player.
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Jan 27, 2018 19:30
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Yeah, if the game score system says BUT THOU MUST then why is the player even there? I maintain the way to fix them is to have a mini-reboot whereby the Inner Sphere remain as their original concept of feudal MechWarrior knights with no logistics or centralised command and control or notion of combined arms, and have the Clans return as the SLDF-but-200-years-more-advanced, without the numbers to take on the IS but with the ability to concentrate force and use tactical acumen the IS has lost. e: \/\/ yeah I know, but one can dream Alchenar fucked around with this message at 21:01 on Jan 27, 2018 |
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Jan 27, 2018 20:28
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Alchenar posted:Yeah, if the game score system says BUT THOU MUST then why is the player even there? Rebooting a franchise like this is not going to work because you really need that core of dedicated fans. It's the SW:EU problem only without the broad base of casual fans who will carry you through reboot nerd rage. There are a ton of ways that all this could be un-hosed by just starting over, but at that point you're really just talking about launching a new IP.
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Jan 27, 2018 20:31
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AAAAA! Real Muenster posted:I already thought it was ridiculous that Comstar had so many high quality troops and mechs that they just handy-dandy shipped to Tukayyid and beat the snot out of the Clans with, but could live with it because whatever. But then the WoB thing happened and just lol. "Secret facilities" with massive production capabilities, millions of crazy fanatic followers, blah blah blah just was awful. The Com Guards suffered like 40% fatality rate at Tukayyid, with even more wounded. They benefitted from storehouses of Star League tech because they were sitting on Terra, but when it came to the actual battle against the Clans, they fed their people through a meatgrinder. Consider that the war leader of the Clan side absolutely 100% sabotaged the Clan efforts there, forcing their bids low against the Com Guard. Even so, the combined ComStar army got its poo poo wrecked organizationally. Any "high quality" the Guards have is post-Tukayyid for the lucky assholes that lived through it. That being said the WoB plot was goofy.
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Jan 27, 2018 20:48
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All I want from BT is Decision at Thunder Rift era space cowboy poo poo, forever. All those nobles just featuring in the crate of secondhand space celebrity mags dropped off by the peddler tramp jumpship on its biyearly visit, dubious mercenary / pirate guys, hardscrabble farmers and gold rushes, the only state authority is like a company of bottom-shelf house mechs at the sector admin seat etc. Some Davion second cousin thrice removed crashing the place with a small retinue because the ground got too hot back home for some mysterious reason. Some farmer kid hunting womp rats from his dad's hovercraft. Man that would be sick.
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Jan 27, 2018 21:14
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Skoll posted:200 year timeskip... to the past? Why bother? Future's better since it doesn't have the Sword of Damocles that is Victor Steiner-Davion hanging over everyone's necks. 200 years in BattleTech's past was the 1st and 2nd succession war, which would be boring as poo poo to play. "Ok, I have my defenders assembled." "Great, I've nuked them from orbit. What do you have defending..."
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Jan 27, 2018 21:41
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House rule no nukes and you solve the problem of that and it's 200 years in the past so no Wonder Midget. Win win.
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Jan 27, 2018 21:49
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Just do the 3rd Succession War. Lots of low-intensity combats, most of the warfare restrictions are in place, and very few fights are anything close to big unit smash ups.
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Jan 27, 2018 22:13
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The idea that the Clan LRMs or other weapons were accidents based on editing mistakes is a myth with no source that just refuses to die. They were supposed to be crazy over the top badasses from the start.
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Jan 27, 2018 22:18
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Taerkar posted:Just do the 3rd Succession War. Lots of low-intensity combats, most of the warfare restrictions are in place, and very few fights are anything close to big unit smash ups. This would be fun too, I'm just saying my personal spergery demands a Reunification Wars game. There is just so much poo poo in that era that could be adapted into a great turn based tactical video game.
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Jan 27, 2018 23:20
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Xotl posted:The idea that the Clan LRMs or other weapons were accidents based on editing mistakes is a myth with no source that just refuses to die. They were supposed to be crazy over the top badasses from the start. Do you have a source saying that it's bullshit? I'm willing to believe it's a myth, but I've been hearing it pretty consistently for decades now so I'd like to see an interview or something with someone who was involved where they say "no, we wanted them that way from the get go."
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Jan 27, 2018 23:42
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Using PGI art-assets to speed up the development process was a massive mistake, at least to me. PGI art assets look like rear end. I understand why HBS licensed the art, would have loved to see the Living Legends mod's fully modeled & skinned vehicles & not-super detailed mechs instead though.
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Jan 28, 2018 00:36
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NoNostalgia4Grover posted:Using PGI art-assets to speed up the development process was a massive mistake, at least to me. PGI art assets look like rear end. I agree with you dude. I hate most of PGI's remodels, but some are genuinely good but that's mostly a ship long sailed.
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Jan 28, 2018 01:16
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i always thought the inner sphere/clan balancing dynamic was supposed to be along the lines of imperial guard/space marines where a single space marine grossly outguns a single guardsman but there’s a lot, a lot more guardsmen to go around
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Jan 28, 2018 02:01
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Cowcaster posted:i always thought the inner sphere/clan balancing dynamic was supposed to be along the lines of imperial guard/space marines where a single space marine grossly outguns a single guardsman but there’s a lot, a lot more guardsmen to go around The guards can usually shoot the space marines before they're obliterated. Clan weaponry vastly outranged IS.
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Jan 28, 2018 02:07
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The Deep Periphery being explored as if colonization had never stopped would go a long way toward making the stark contrast between "Federal Brigade Bonanza" that is the Civil War and beyond, and the "Raid a planet with three damaged 'Mechs and a scout tank because yours is out of water" that is the 3rd Succession War. Strictly limiting the boundaries of inhabited space worth giving a drat severely curtailed the creative space in BT's story.
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Jan 28, 2018 02:12
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Skoll posted:The guards can usually shoot the space marines before they're obliterated. Clan weaponry vastly outranged IS. sure i guess but human wave attacks and all
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Jan 28, 2018 02:12
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Skoll posted:Clan weaponry vastly outranged IS. Marginally farther, in some cases no more than a few hexes. The Clans' real advantage was in space, once the Inner Sphere developed warships of their own they lost that advantage and the existential threat they presented was well and truly over (which is subsequently precisely when the Smoke Jaguars got annihilated to prove it). I genuinely, honestly like the Dark Ages Jade Falcons. They throw all that Long Range Snobbishness out the window in favor of TSM melee 'Mechs and kicking their enemies to death. sebmojo posted:U r insane Some of the PGI designs are OK, but others like the Centurion (and their weird flat brick of an Atlas) are mediocre at best. I loving hate the PGI Centurion, they took a tall slender 'Mech and made it fat. They also completely missed the Clan aesthetic, but I've talked about that in other places so I won't bother here. PoptartsNinja fucked around with this message at 02:37 on Jan 28, 2018 |
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Jan 28, 2018 02:35
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NoNostalgia4Grover posted:Using PGI art-assets to speed up the development process was a massive mistake, at least to me. PGI art assets look like rear end. You are insane. E: I mean I guess it's open to dislike the style, but there's no way a shop the size of hbs could have modeled skinned and rigged that number of models without severely impacting the other aspects of the game. Do you have any side by side examples of mwll vs mwo models to show what you mean? sebmojo fucked around with this message at 02:39 on Jan 28, 2018 |
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Jan 28, 2018 02:36
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I absolutely hate the PGI Atlas that everyone seems to love. They made what is supposed to be a terrifying machine look squat and fat.
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Jan 28, 2018 02:42
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