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Tobbs Gnawed
Apr 4, 2007

All round mafia nice guy

Juchero posted:

like maybe it's a 3p team or something but

i'd prefer not to be smashed into goo

I forget all the classes but there's berserker, caster, lancer, archer, sabre, assassin? All duplicated and on two different teams being controlled by other people.

Berserker is neutral as far as flavor is concerned, and as someone pointed out there are enough roles for scum to have fakeclaims. Flavor-solving isn't a thing that's possible this game, I think, which is a good thing.

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Tired Moritz
Mar 25, 2012

wish Lowtax would get tired of YOUR POSTS

(n o i c e)

Natural 20 posted:

6. Flavour is flavour, you’re welcome to pursue arguments on it if you want, however, I intentionally have not made clear, when exactly in Fate Stay Night this takes place or what of the three main routes it takes place under, so it’s not a silver bullet.

Bifauxnen
Aug 12, 2010

Curses! Foiled again!


ok I'm in the "just lol" stage with Quid now and can move on

Tobbs Gnawed posted:

Berserker is neutral as far as flavor is concerned, and as someone pointed out there are enough roles for scum to have fakeclaims.

That someone is me! Allow me to try and give a brief example. With 14 roles, the obvious way this game should be laid out is with 7 Masters and 7 Servants:

Saber and Shirou
Archer and Rin
Lancer and Kirei
Rider and Shinji
Berserker and Ilya
Caster and Whats-his-face
True Assassin and Zouken

But things aren't quite that neat and tidy in the story. There is an extra Assassin servant hanging around: Kojirou. He messes up the neat pairs too, since he is summoned by Caster. He's a lot nicer than the True Assassin though, so maybe Kojirou takes that spot and gets to be town while True Assassin is fakeclaiming as something else. That's one scum possibility.

There is an extra Archer servant hanging around, as well: Gilgamesh, who could be considered a villain in all routes. He could be in this game and just fakeclaiming as one of the 14. Or he could be considered a town/3P role cause he's not quite as evil as some other people around here. Maybe with Gilgamesh in play as an extra, a more evil member of the starting 14 gets to fakeclaim instead. (I'm looking at you, Zouken) So that's scum possibility #2.

One of the servants, Rider, has two masters in a sense. Shinji was granted special dibs on getting to control her, but technically it should be Sakura who's her master. If Shinji is one of the starting 14, Sakura could be an extra on the scum team, fakeclaiming as something else. Which makes #3 and brings me to #4...

If this game is about a death match where each pair is allegedly out for themselves, how would they ever make a "town" in the first place? Who would be the scum? There's one obvious character to be the greater threat. An additional servant who could be considered the main villain of the story in a sense: Angra Mainyu, Avenger, the embodiment of all evils of the world which has corrupted the holy grail itself. Whoever has this role could have anyone else as a fakeclaim. But also, in the story the power of Angra Mainyu is able to corrupt other servants and bring them under its control. Even servants who were previously considered the most good and virtuous, like Saber.

So basically, any of the Master characters you think are good could just be a fakeclaim for Zouken or a corrupted Sakura. Any of the Servant characters you think are good could be a fakeclaim for True Assassin or Gilgamesh, or maybe they're just straight-up corrupted and fakeclaiming as themselves!

This game is not flavor solvable. Trust no one.

Quidthulhu
Dec 17, 2003

Stand down, men! It's only smooching!

Ah yes, Bif comes in with a fake rear end case and when the response I give about the valid holes in her case don't live up to her expectations, she decides it's all in the bag and she can move on. Solid case work there, Bif.

Tobbs Gnawed
Apr 4, 2007

All round mafia nice guy
I don't think the death match thing makes any sense since I'm just plain-old town aligned.

That you bring it up as a possibility is super odd, Bif.

Bifauxnen
Aug 12, 2010

Curses! Foiled again!


Tobbs Gnawed posted:

I don't think the death match thing makes any sense since I'm just plain-old town aligned.

That you bring it up as a possibility is super odd, Bif.

I'm talking about the setting for the flavor story, and then trying to explain how that possibly translates to a Mafia setting with a town and scum team.

Tobbs Gnawed
Apr 4, 2007

All round mafia nice guy

Bifauxnen posted:

If this game is about a death match where each pair is allegedly out for themselves, how would they ever make a "town" in the first place? Who would be the scum?

Are you a threat to town, Bif?

##vote Bif

Tobbs Gnawed
Apr 4, 2007

All round mafia nice guy

Bifauxnen posted:

I'm talking about the setting for the flavor story, and then trying to explain how that possibly translates to a Mafia setting with a town and scum team.

It's the pair thing that gets me. "Each pair out for themselves."

That doesn't seem to be a possibility, unless there's only one other town aligned player.

Bifauxnen
Aug 12, 2010

Curses! Foiled again!


if you're not gonna properly read all my flavour ramblings next time just don't read them at all please

GulagDolls
Jun 4, 2011

Tobbs Gnawed posted:

It's the pair thing that gets me. "Each pair out for themselves."

That doesn't seem to be a possibility, unless there's only one other town aligned player.

im not sure where to start but you're on the wrong track. please execute quid

Tobbs Gnawed
Apr 4, 2007

All round mafia nice guy

GulagDolls posted:

im not sure where to start but you're on the wrong track. please execute quid

I'm just having trouble figuring out how Bif could write that part I bolded and also be town.

Waving it off as a flavor argument doesn't help, because no player of an explicitly town alignment would suggest that pairs of players are in it for themselves.

Monathin
Sep 1, 2011

?????????
?

Murmur Twin posted:

That said, I'm still feeling my vote on Monathin until he at least responds to my case.

Sorry Twin, got busier this weekend than I expected to be, let me indulge you real quick.

Murmur Twin posted:

He's not really putting a lot of thought into "who is scum?" - I feel like Monathin is using flavor knowledge to give the impression of content. The signal:noise ratio makes me suspicious. ##vote Monathin

I am patently not a fan of making D1 cases - I feel a lot of people tend to pounce on what looks like the scummiest behavior, which I feel overwhelming ends up in a town dunk by accident. I understand by strict numbers it's better to dunk than not on Day 1 and will usually try and see which of the cases I feel are -actually- legitimate, but I'm pretty reserved. That probably registers as scum to some folk, but day 1 tends to be pretty wacky and tumultuous, with or without jokephase.

That said, I have a bit more free time today, and deadline's this evening, so I'm gonna try and get some casework out there and see if anyone's seeing what I'm seeing.

Juchero
Feb 15, 2008


Wedge Regret
don't forget Lancer had a different partner at the beginning of fate

then she got half murdered and stuck in a time loop so kirei took over as his master

Bifauxnen
Aug 12, 2010

Curses! Foiled again!


Tobbs from the Shine V thread, probably posted:

Why are all those people claiming to be Texan when they live in Australia? Why are you all claiming to be Mexican when you live in the US? Why even think of this possibility?? What is flavor?? Are you a threat to town for bringing this up, KB?!?

Monathin
Sep 1, 2011

?????????
?

I'm not going to get baited into the trap of further setup spec but I think Bif's claim of the game not being flavor-solvable is on the right track, there are some people in the flavor as Bif setup who I would expect to be more scum-aligned than others, but Bif's right that there's enough wiggle room in how F/SN presents itself that there's a fair amount of safety in fakeclaims.

GulagDolls
Jun 4, 2011

Tobbs Gnawed posted:

I'm just having trouble figuring out how Bif could write that part I bolded and also be town.

Waving it off as a flavor argument doesn't help, because no player of an explicitly town alignment would suggest that pairs of players are in it for themselves.

because the entire post is an elaboration on how flavor cant be used to solve the game (from you) and she is saying that the main 'idea' of fsn (7 independent pairs) wouldnt make sense in the context of a mafia game in the first place.

at this point im suspicious of you because i think a town player would not suspect scum/3p of outting themselves like that for no reason. like is that one line more compelling than the entirety of the rest of today to you

Tobbs Gnawed
Apr 4, 2007

All round mafia nice guy

I never use multiples of punctuation besides ellipses.

Tobbs Gnawed
Apr 4, 2007

All round mafia nice guy

GulagDolls posted:

because the entire post is an elaboration on how flavor cant be used to solve the game (from you) and she is saying that the main 'idea' of fsn (7 independent pairs) wouldnt make sense in the context of a mafia game in the first place.

at this point im suspicious of you because i think a town player would not suspect scum/3p of outting themselves like that for no reason. like is that one line more compelling than the entirety of the rest of today to you

I think it's a slip.

I think she's on some kind of small team that is not town-aligned, and she assumed that was how the game was set up.

I can ask it explicitly, though.

Are you town aligned Bif? If yes, where did that speculation come from?

Bifauxnen
Aug 12, 2010

Curses! Foiled again!


Tobbs you're being kind of an idiot rn

50 pounds of bread
Sep 27, 2006

Bifauxnen posted:

Berserker and Ilya


LITTLE GIRL...

MUST... PROTECT...

Tobbs Gnawed
Apr 4, 2007

All round mafia nice guy

Bifauxnen posted:

Tobbs you're being kind of an idiot rn

Are you town?

Tobbs Gnawed
Apr 4, 2007

All round mafia nice guy

Bifauxnen posted:

Tobbs you're being kind of an idiot rn

If my conclusions are so idiotic that nobody can see how I'm making them, what do you have to worry about? Nobody will believe me and nobody else will vote you.

Bifauxnen
Aug 12, 2010

Curses! Foiled again!


Tobbs Gnawed posted:

Are you town?

Yeah and my partner claims to be also - IF they are who they claim to be, and not just fakeclaiming, I would find them to have a believable town role. But that would make for a very silly Mafia game if I can just assume this. The masonry is NOT confirmed, and I don't see why anyone else's should be.

The story of Fate/Stay Night, the flavour of the Mafia game you are playing in, is about a battle royale for the Holy Grail. The pairs are supposed to fight to the death. This is the flavor I was bringing up, before explaining myself how it could translate to the mafia context.

Tobbs Gnawed
Apr 4, 2007

All round mafia nice guy

Bifauxnen posted:

Yeah and my partner claims to be also - IF they are who they claim to be, and not just fakeclaiming, I would find them to have a believable town role. But that would make for a very silly Mafia game if I can just assume this. The masonry is NOT confirmed, and I don't see why anyone else's should be.

The story of Fate/Stay Night, the flavour of the Mafia game you are playing in, is about a battle royale for the Holy Grail. The pairs are supposed to fight to the death. This is the flavor I was bringing up, before explaining myself how it could translate to the mafia context.

Fair enough. I'm not in any masonries so I can see how you'd make a statement about pairs.

##unvote

Tobbs Gnawed
Apr 4, 2007

All round mafia nice guy
Actually back to ##vote Quid

50 pounds of bread
Sep 27, 2006

Hold on, breaking character.

YOU GUYS ALL HAVE MASONS? WTF WHY CAN BERZERKER NO TALK TO LITTLE GIRL?

50 pounds of bread
Sep 27, 2006

BERZERKER WANT TALK TO LITTLE GIRL!

50 pounds of bread
Sep 27, 2006

BERZERKER ANGRY, HOW BERZERKER PROTECT LITTLE GIRL IF CANT TALK TO LITTLE GIRL?

SalTheBard
Jan 26, 2005

I forgot to post my food for USPOL Thanksgiving but that's okay too!

Fallen Rib
Would you like to make some gently caress Berzerker?

50 pounds of bread
Sep 27, 2006

BERZERKER KILL NOT FAIR THING.

##VOTE BIF

Bifauxnen
Aug 12, 2010

Curses! Foiled again!


50 pounds of bread posted:

Hold on, breaking character.

YOU GUYS ALL HAVE MASONS? WTF WHY CAN BERZERKER NO TALK TO LITTLE GIRL?

ugggggh now see what you did Tobbs, I figured it woulda made sense for everyone or almost everyone to be paired up like this, and now I outed me and my bud for no reason at all.

The pairs exist in the story regardless of Mafia roles. I was discussing the story only to try and bring rjings back to mafia and point out how considering anyone flavor cleared is silly. Even if you're in a masonry... but this was true regardless even if no one was masoned. Thanks for getting all up my case over your own lack of reading, jerkface!

b-minus1
Jul 24, 2008

She's a maniac, maniac
on the floor
And she's dancing like she's never danced before
Something came up and I will be busy for the next two hours or so. Just want to pop in and say that bif is my strongest town read based on those recent posts.

50 pounds of bread
Sep 27, 2006

BERZERKER MAD...

NEED PROTECT LITTLE GIRL!!!!

KILL... SMASH... BREAKKKKK

Juchero
Feb 15, 2008


Wedge Regret

50 pounds of bread posted:

BERZERKER MAD...

NEED PROTECT LITTLE GIRL!!!!

KILL... SMASH... BREAKKKKK

feel like people aren't giving this the attention it should get

Tobbs Gnawed
Apr 4, 2007

All round mafia nice guy

Bifauxnen posted:

ugggggh now see what you did Tobbs, I figured it woulda made sense for everyone or almost everyone to be paired up like this, and now I outed me and my bud for no reason at all.

The pairs exist in the story regardless of Mafia roles. I was discussing the story only to try and bring rjings back to mafia and point out how considering anyone flavor cleared is silly. Even if you're in a masonry... but this was true regardless even if no one was masoned. Thanks for getting all up my case over your own lack of reading, jerkface!

It's an unconfirmed masonry so who cares?

But yeah, I can see your post coming from a town perspective due to that.

Bifauxnen
Aug 12, 2010

Curses! Foiled again!


IT DOESN'T EVEN MATTER THOUGH, THE STORY IS THE STORY REGARDLESS OF MASONS UGH

Juchero posted:

feel like people aren't giving this the attention it should get

lol I'm just picturing Berserker smashing everything in the background now while no one even notices

50 pounds of bread
Sep 27, 2006

Bifauxnen posted:

lol I'm just picturing Berserker smashing everything in the background now while no one even notices

GREAAAAAAAAAGHHH...

my house is now a mess

AAAAAAARRRRRGHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!

GulagDolls
Jun 4, 2011

onii-chan?

KhediveRex
Jul 11, 2016

A poster to surpass Bifauxnen!

Bifauxnen posted:

That someone is me! Allow me to try and give a brief example. With 14 roles, the obvious way this game should be laid out is with 7 Masters and 7 Servants: ...

This is the first helpful thing I've seen posted in almost 3 days. Please tell me more about Avenger Bif.

I don't buy the angle that it's a battle royale. I also don't buy the angle that Bif is just distracting us. All of what they posted is potentially useful information. If the anime traditionally splits people into pairings we can be pretty sure thats an element of the game and will exist for a reason. I think at this point Bread has basically confirmed he's in a masonry with "Ilya". Juchero's post makes me feel like he wanted to correct Bif's pairing list but didn't want to be noticed correcting it. If two people have responded to the pairing list like it's a thing, then pairs aren't an isolated incident.

I think there's enough evidence to assert that Masonries are two-person pairings, probably in general. And if I had to guess why, my first impression by way of game mechanics would be that Avenger can convert a servant to scum after he has killed the servant's master. That makes more sense to me than the notion that everyone is fighting everyone else.

Does Avenger have a master? Does Avenger have well established powers or political allies? Are we taking the grail from Avenger or is he another person racing to get it first? I would love to know more and the wiki for this game is dense.

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Juchero
Feb 15, 2008


Wedge Regret

KhediveRex posted:

This is the first helpful thing I've seen posted in almost 3 days. Please tell me more about Avenger Bif.

I don't buy the angle that it's a battle royale. I also don't buy the angle that Bif is just distracting us. All of what they posted is potentially useful information. If the anime traditionally splits people into pairings we can be pretty sure thats an element of the game and will exist for a reason. I think at this point Bread has basically confirmed he's in a masonry with "Ilya". Juchero's post makes me feel like he wanted to correct Bif's pairing list but didn't want to be noticed correcting it. If two people have responded to the pairing list like it's a thing, then pairs aren't an isolated incident.

I think there's enough evidence to assert that Masonries are two-person pairings, probably in general. And if I had to guess why, my first impression by way of game mechanics would be that Avenger can convert a servant to scum after he has killed the servant's master. That makes more sense to me than the notion that everyone is fighting everyone else.

Does Avenger have a master? Does Avenger have well established powers or political allies? Are we taking the grail from Avenger or is he another person racing to get it first? I would love to know more and the wiki for this game is dense.

avenger is actually inside the grail as of the 5th war

they're a special case, and trying to explain them is indeed rather confusing

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