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Space Flower
Sep 10, 2014

by Games Forum
last encore opening leaked

https://twitter.com/q_xZv_p/status/957124809845952512

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taser rates
Mar 30, 2010
There's stuff going around twitter about some neat bits of foreshadowing for Last Encore, primarily from Holmes's trial quest in FGO and the El Melloi Case Files (read downthread).

https://twitter.com/deepbluejeer/status/957527652386054144

Galaga Galaxian
Apr 23, 2009

What a childish tactic!
Don't you think you should put more thought into your battleplan?!


With the FGO KnK collab coming to NA in a few weeks, I decided to watch the movies after learning they're on Amazon Prime's video thing.

Only watched the first one, Overlooking View, so far. It was very interesting, not much explained about the characters but rather enjoyable. Definitely got that Nasu feel. I wonder if there is lots of Nasu style inner monologues and stuff being left out. The music was excellent as well.

One interesting thing I noticed was how dingy and worn down a lot of the scenery looked, not just the Fujou building but other places as well, curiously things only looked this way when Shiki was moving around alone while Touko's office/building and Shiki's apartment seem normal. I can't tell if that's supposed to be something connected to Shiki or if it was just a worn down part of town.

Looking forward to watching more. Also sorry if this isn't the right thread, I know Nasu wrote it but I can't remembering it's properly a type moon thing since it's one of his earliest works.

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009
Kara no Kyoukai is not only officially a type-moon thing, it's canon to Fate/Stay Night and Tsukihime.

Compendium
Jun 18, 2013

M-E-J-E-D
It's in the OP so yes, Kara no Kyoukai is a Type-Moon work through and through.

As for inner monologues, I'd say that the movies do a good job of showing instead of telling even if the novels had them, but you're not missing out on too much since the information is there.

Conspiratiorist
Nov 12, 2015

17th Separate Kryvyi Rih Tank Brigade named after Konstantin Pestushko
Look to my coming on the first light of the fifth sixth some day
It's a bad part of town.

Also Shiki has a habit of walking around bad parts of town at night.

taser rates
Mar 30, 2010
For all its other narrative oddities, Nasu was pretty clearly channeling noir fiction when writing KNK so the rundown urban setting fits it well. I wish he would revisit that mode again since the last time was DDD, and he's improved a lot as a writer since then. And yea, it falls pretty cleanly within the cosmology of his other works which will become clear later on.

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009
when will the ddd characters be added to fgo

Silver2195
Apr 4, 2012

Endorph posted:

Kara no Kyoukai is not only officially a type-moon thing, it's canon to Fate/Stay Night and Tsukihime.

Canon in the same multiverse sense, but different timeline, IIRC. The main difference is that there are no vampires in the KnKverse. My pet theory is that this is due to Vlad winning the Third Holy Grail War and going House of M on them.

AtheistMantis
Oct 5, 2014

Silver2195 posted:

Canon in the same multiverse sense, but different timeline, IIRC. The main difference is that there are no vampires in the KnKverse. My pet theory is that this is due to Vlad winning the Third Holy Grail War and going House of M on them.

Makes sense. No vampires means Cornelius Alba was likely unemployed and thus had more time to harass Touko Aozaki therefore leading to the events in KnK.

Nate RFB
Jan 17, 2005

Clapping Larry
At the time it seemed more to me that was more of a handwave/excuse as to how you could have two characters both named Shiki with nearly identical powers. Now there are so many alternative timelines and multiverses within the T-M world(s) that really it's just a drop in the bucket in the grand scheme of things.

Bakanogami
Dec 31, 2004


Grimey Drawer

Nate RFB posted:

At the time it seemed more to me that was more of a handwave/excuse as to how you could have two characters both named Shiki with nearly identical powers. Now there are so many alternative timelines and multiverses within the T-M world(s) that really it's just a drop in the bucket in the grand scheme of things.

Yeah, at some point they started really getting out of hand with everything being in different parallel universes. Especially when a lot of the time there’s no actual reason why they couldn’t be in a shared universe. I think I saw in a wiki that one of them even stated in an interview that even Fate Zero was supposed to be in an alternate universe to Stay Night, and that was straight made to be a prequel, that even gets referenced a lot in Hollow Ataraxia.

It’s kinda too bad, the hints of a shared universe between Tsukihime and Fate were something I really enjoyed when I was first getting into the franchise.

Compendium
Jun 18, 2013

M-E-J-E-D
I'm certain that there are vampires, just not in the story of KnK itself.

And it's more likely that the events of Fate/Zero played out the same way and was prior to the events of KnK and thus after burning down a whole island of ghouls, Cornelius went to harass Touko

Kyte
Nov 19, 2013

Never quacked for this

Bakanogami posted:

Yeah, at some point they started really getting out of hand with everything being in different parallel universes. Especially when a lot of the time there’s no actual reason why they couldn’t be in a shared universe. I think I saw in a wiki that one of them even stated in an interview that even Fate Zero was supposed to be in an alternate universe to Stay Night, and that was straight made to be a prequel, that even gets referenced a lot in Hollow Ataraxia.

It’s kinda too bad, the hints of a shared universe between Tsukihime and Fate were something I really enjoyed when I was first getting into the franchise.

It's basically a convenient way to sidestep continuity issues. Fate/Zero doesn't perfectly align with Fate/Stay Night, so Nasu went "yeah FZ goes before FSN but it's also a bit to the left so don't sweat the small details".

KnK and Tsukihime were never meant to share universe, the dates never lined up and stuff like the Aozakis simply didn't fit together.

Then when FSN came out it was still running under the assumption that Tsuki and FSN shared timeline so by transitive property FSN couldn't've shared timeline with KnK, and now years later it got retconned that FSN and Tsuki don't actually share timeline because certain base premises in the background setting are different (probably because Nasu realized that it didn't quite make sense that a world that could call upon monster slayers of the past would have monsters running around as a dominant power) so now they're all independent timelines.

Nyaa
Jan 7, 2010
Like, Nyaa.

:colbert:
Same for Grand Order. Nasu stated the timeline is more prominent for Heroes and the pro-Monster timeline in Tsukihime failed to happen because Heroes probably culled them pretty severely.

There's a not-canon radio drama by type moon where one of the hero murdered one of the boss in Tsuhikme many decades ago, which leads to a chain reactions of many other monster related event not happening.

Blockhouse
Sep 7, 2014

You Win!
Dead Apostles still get mentioned here and there in Fate stuff though

which I guess goes along with Nasu saying some timelines are both Fate-type and Tsukihime-type in one

taser rates
Mar 30, 2010
All adhering to a strict continuity would accomplish is narrow the freedom the writers have, which Nasu thankfully recognized and sidestepped.

Pureauthor
Jul 8, 2010

ASK ME ABOUT KISSING A GHOST

Nyaa posted:

Same for Grand Order. Nasu stated the timeline is more prominent for Heroes and the pro-Monster timeline in Tsukihime failed to happen because Heroes probably culled them pretty severely.

There's a not-canon radio drama by type moon where one of the hero murdered one of the boss in Tsuhikme many decades ago, which leads to a chain reactions of many other monster related event not happening.

That'd be Edmond Dantes murdering the poo poo out of Roa.

Silver2195
Apr 4, 2012

Blockhouse posted:

Dead Apostles still get mentioned here and there in Fate stuff though

which I guess goes along with Nasu saying some timelines are both Fate-type and Tsukihime-type in one

Archer's timeline must have been one of those, since he got his shroud thingy from Ciel.

Plus Bazette was supposed to be a major character in Tsukihime 2, Arcueid appears in Extra, etc.

W.T. Fits
Apr 21, 2010

Ready to Poyozo Dance all over your face.
One of the Masters in the False Grail War in Fate/Strange Fake is a Dead Apostle whose original wish for the Grail was to wake up Type Mercury so that it could wipe out humanity. Saber from Strange Fake also killed a Dead Apostle during his lifetime.

Argas
Jan 13, 2008
SRW Fanatic




From what I recall, it's not that Dead Apostles don't exist in the Fate timelines, it's just that they're nowhere near as prominent as in Tsukihime. The dead apostle ancestors do exist in the Fateverse but not all of them do. Some either never became a dead apostle in the first place and others are dead-dead.

Kyte
Nov 19, 2013

Never quacked for this
Strange Fake is the weirdo one because Narita.

Blockhouse posted:

Dead Apostles still get mentioned here and there in Fate stuff though

which I guess goes along with Nasu saying some timelines are both Fate-type and Tsukihime-type in one

I mean, there are vampires, they just aren't a dominant power within the setting like it is in Tsukihime.

El Burbo
Oct 10, 2012

W.T. Fits posted:

One of the Masters in the False Grail War in Fate/Strange Fake is a Dead Apostle whose original wish for the Grail was to wake up Type Mercury so that it could wipe out humanity. Saber from Strange Fake also killed a Dead Apostle during his lifetime.

I think Strange Fake exists in a state where the world could either turn to the Human Focused fate type or the tsukihime type

Bakanogami
Dec 31, 2004


Grimey Drawer
IIRC they kinda reference one of the Types (I forget which, the one in South America) at one point in the main FGO story so they haven’t completely forgotten about it all.

In any event I stand by my opinion that they’ve abused the alternate timeline thing to death and they could have easily kept everything (except extra because gently caress extra) in one universe with very simple handwaves for the few discrepancies that exist here and there.

Silver2195
Apr 4, 2012

Bakanogami posted:

IIRC they kinda reference one of the Types (I forget which, the one in South America) at one point in the main FGO story so they haven’t completely forgotten about it all.

In any event I stand by my opinion that they’ve abused the alternate timeline thing to death and they could have easily kept everything (except extra because gently caress extra) in one universe with very simple handwaves for the few discrepancies that exist here and there.

Fate/Stay Night and Tsukihime each have multiple timelines to begin with, even if you only count the True Ends. And Apocrpha's whole premise is the Third War going differently than it did in the Zero timeline. But I agree that the stuff with various DAAs being killed off in the Stay Night timeline seems unnecessary.

UchihaHirou
Mar 8, 2007

Active Skill:
Solves all problems.
They could have waved off any discrepancies as distortions introduced by the perspective (and biases) of witnesses observing said event, and I would have been okay with it.

Space Flower
Sep 10, 2014

by Games Forum

Silver2195 posted:

Fate/Stay Night and Tsukihime each have multiple timelines to begin with, even if you only count the True Ends. And Apocrpha's whole premise is the Third War going differently than it did in the Zero timeline. But I agree that the stuff with various DAAs being killed off in the Stay Night timeline seems unnecessary.

Why’s it unnecessary? The basic difference between stay night and tsukihime’s timelines is whether they’re centered around DAAs or heroic spirits. I don’t see anyone complaining about the lack of human history in Kara no Kyoukai

W.T. Fits
Apr 21, 2010

Ready to Poyozo Dance all over your face.

Bakanogami posted:

IIRC they kinda reference one of the Types (I forget which, the one in South America)

That would be Type Mercury.

Space Flower
Sep 10, 2014

by Games Forum
Plus it makes fgo cool when you get stuff like Dantes vs Roa

ZepiaEltnamOberon
Oct 25, 2010

I Failed At Anime 2022
There's not a single good reason to try and unify all the TYPE-MOON stuff into a 'single actual world' versus 'alternate universes with shared foundation', given the diversity of storytelling they have going.

MonsieurChoc
Oct 12, 2013

Every species can smell its own extinction.

W.T. Fits posted:

One of the Masters in the False Grail War in Fate/Strange Fake is a Dead Apostle whose original wish for the Grail was to wake up Type Mercury so that it could wipe out humanity. Saber from Strange Fake also killed a Dead Apostle during his lifetime.

I want that as an event so we can fight ORT in FGO.

Bakanogami
Dec 31, 2004


Grimey Drawer

Hate-Senpai posted:

There's not a single good reason to try and unify all the TYPE-MOON stuff into a 'single actual world' versus 'alternate universes with shared foundation', given the diversity of storytelling they have going.

There's no good reason not to, and having stuff like this in a shared universe is fun. You can include little cameos (like Touko and Zelretch in Fate), you can reuse characters, you can offer a glimpse of the continuation of one story in another without constructing a full sequel, and somewhere down the line you can put out a new work where characters from the assorted properties all come together somehow.

There are huge properties like Marvel that basically live off this stuff. It works.

And what's more, they're practically doing it anyway! You still have Arcueid and Shiki as bosses in Fate Extra, you still have servants in FGO refer back to their respective original series, you still have characters who were in the Dead Apostle Ancestors showing up, you still have them all using pretty much the same worldbuilding and rules, and any retcons they offer would work equally well if used in a shared universe. They straight up have a Kara no Kyoukai event in FGO where you can recruit Shiki as a servant. They'll almost certainly have the same thing with Tsukihime characters if they ever finish the Tsukihime remake (lol).

If they're just going to have everything cross over anyway, what's the point in being anally meticulous about making it clear that FSN and Tsukihime and Kara no Kyoukai and Fate Zero and the El Melloi Case Files and Strange Fake so on are all in separate parallel universes that don't interact with each other? If they want to break canon and do a what-if, they're still perfectly free to do so, like with Extra, Apocrypha, and FGO. I'm just saying they're going too far with it for no good reason.

All breaking every property into it's own split off accomplishes is limits the extent one property can refer to another. So if say, they made some thing where Ciel or Arcuied were to show up in FGO, they couldn't have any references to or build upon the events of Tsukihime because they never happened in the FGO timeline. It also makes it so that when you have one of these characters show up, because their cash cow FGO is based entirely around pulling characters from their other properties, you have to have them dance around the loving point with a "hmm, I have a feeling I remember you even though I don't" schtick that is repeated literally hundreds of times. (Although admittedly that's at least half due to the rule of how summoning from the Throne of Heroes works as explained in FSN. )

Aurora
Jan 7, 2008

it's already been established that the throne of spirits exists outside of time so stuff like fgo makes sense without being "willy nilly crossovers"

ZepiaEltnamOberon
Oct 25, 2010

I Failed At Anime 2022

Bakanogami posted:

There's no good reason not to, and having stuff like this in a shared universe is fun. You can include little cameos (like Touko and Zelretch in Fate), you can reuse characters, you can offer a glimpse of the continuation of one story in another without constructing a full sequel, and somewhere down the line you can put out a new work where characters from the assorted properties all come together somehow.

There are huge properties like Marvel that basically live off this stuff. It works.

And what's more, they're practically doing it anyway! You still have Arcueid and Shiki as bosses in Fate Extra, you still have servants in FGO refer back to their respective original series, you still have characters who were in the Dead Apostle Ancestors showing up, you still have them all using pretty much the same worldbuilding and rules, and any retcons they offer would work equally well if used in a shared universe. They straight up have a Kara no Kyoukai event in FGO where you can recruit Shiki as a servant. They'll almost certainly have the same thing with Tsukihime characters if they ever finish the Tsukihime remake (lol).

If they're just going to have everything cross over anyway, what's the point in being anally meticulous about making it clear that FSN and Tsukihime and Kara no Kyoukai and Fate Zero and the El Melloi Case Files and Strange Fake so on are all in separate parallel universes that don't interact with each other? If they want to break canon and do a what-if, they're still perfectly free to do so, like with Extra, Apocrypha, and FGO. I'm just saying they're going too far with it for no good reason.

All breaking every property into it's own split off accomplishes is limits the extent one property can refer to another. So if say, they made some thing where Ciel or Arcuied were to show up in FGO, they couldn't have any references to or build upon the events of Tsukihime because they never happened in the FGO timeline. It also makes it so that when you have one of these characters show up, because their cash cow FGO is based entirely around pulling characters from their other properties, you have to have them dance around the loving point with a "hmm, I have a feeling I remember you even though I don't" schtick that is repeated literally hundreds of times. (Although admittedly that's at least half due to the rule of how summoning from the Throne of Heroes works as explained in FSN. )

Semiramis is coming for Valentine's Day.

The GIG
Jun 28, 2011

Yeah, I say "Shit" a shit-ton of times. What of it, shithead?
Cape comics are possibly the worst thing to cite with regards to a shared universe working. considering how often writers of smaller stories tend to get hosed over every 6 months on average.

ZepiaEltnamOberon
Oct 25, 2010

I Failed At Anime 2022
Just to be serious for a second, I did not know Semiramis was actually coming out when I made that post.

I apologize for posting true statements in bad faith.

Bakanogami
Dec 31, 2004


Grimey Drawer

The GIG posted:

Cape comics are possibly the worst thing to cite with regards to a shared universe working. considering how often writers of smaller stories tend to get hosed over every 6 months on average.

It's true, but also not really applicable here since Type-moon's staff of writers is pretty small, doesn't see much turnover, and doesn't juggle nearly as many titles.

Aurora posted:

it's already been established that the throne of spirits exists outside of time so stuff like fgo makes sense without being "willy nilly crossovers"

The throne of heroes stuff was established since fsn so I don't really have as much of a gripe with it in particular, but rather stuff like what the hell happened to the fsn cast in the fgo world? It's set 12 years later, and when it first started I got all excited, thinking they might do some sort of tie-in and have adult Shirou show up just as he was right about at Archer's age, or something like that. Something to just generally give a sense that it was a weird pseudo-sequel to FSN rather than a mostly unrelated spin-off.

Instead it's a completely different universe where (Camelot spoilers, I think?)the Animuspheres won the 5th holy grail war, and we still don't know anything about what happened to the rest of the cast (with the possible exception of Kotomine).

Aurora
Jan 7, 2008

fgo is just its own timeline dude

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009
jesus christ im sorry i started this tangent

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Kyte
Nov 19, 2013

Never quacked for this

Bakanogami posted:

If they're just going to have everything cross over anyway, what's the point in being anally meticulous about making it clear that FSN and Tsukihime and Kara no Kyoukai and Fate Zero and the El Melloi Case Files and Strange Fake so on are all in separate parallel universes that don't interact with each other? If they want to break canon and do a what-if, they're still perfectly free to do so, like with Extra, Apocrypha, and FGO. I'm just saying they're going too far with it for no good reason.

All breaking every property into it's own split off accomplishes is limits the extent one property can refer to another. So if say, they made some thing where Ciel or Arcuied were to show up in FGO, they couldn't have any references to or build upon the events of Tsukihime because they never happened in the FGO timeline. It also makes it so that when you have one of these characters show up, because their cash cow FGO is based entirely around pulling characters from their other properties, you have to have them dance around the loving point with a "hmm, I have a feeling I remember you even though I don't" schtick that is repeated literally hundreds of times. (Although admittedly that's at least half due to the rule of how summoning from the Throne of Heroes works as explained in FSN. )
I feel you're applying a slippery slope argument here.

FZ and FSN are connected, it's just FZ is not a perfect prequel because Nasu didn't wanna cockblock Urobuchi's creative vision.
Strange Fake is set sometime post FSN but it's not directly connected because Nasu wanted to let Narita do all his weird stuff, which the latter gleefully took advantage of.
Case Files is clearly post FZ/FSN and it's not like there's any statement on the subject because it literally doesn't matter.

It all boils down to "Don't try too hard to link all the works together, if they don't match they don't match, it's fine."

They are still perfectly free to cook up literally whatever they want and Nasu will bullshit up some place in the cosmic arrangement where it works out, that's the entire point. The point is to give writers more options, not less.

Bakanogami posted:

The throne of heroes stuff was established since fsn so I don't really have as much of a gripe with it in particular, but rather stuff like what the hell happened to the fsn cast in the fgo world? It's set 12 years later, and when it first started I got all excited, thinking they might do some sort of tie-in and have adult Shirou show up just as he was right about at Archer's age, or something like that. Something to just generally give a sense that it was a weird pseudo-sequel to FSN rather than a mostly unrelated spin-off.

Instead it's a completely different universe where (Camelot spoilers, I think?)the Animuspheres won the 5th holy grail war, and we still don't know anything about what happened to the rest of the cast (with the possible exception of Kotomine).
They are not shown because they are not relevant to this story. The expectations built in your head were never real. From the very beginning the promotional materials were making it clear this was some AU kinda deal.

Plus, FSN literally cannot have a sequel without pinning down how FSN ended and that's the one thing Nasu just won't do.

Kyte fucked around with this message at 15:53 on Jan 30, 2018

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