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hampig posted:I came away from the game with the impression that Rom and the player were "reborn" as Great Ones, and Ebrietas always was one. They're different because they were once human, whereas a real Great One never was; which also lends credence to Ebrietas being Kin instead of a Great One, because it makes more sense that it'd be able to converse with humans if it used to be one. You don't see the Moon Presence coming down from the sky to give you a friendly hello. Kin also don't have to play by the same rules as Great Ones because they weren't born into being one. Every Great One is born, has a child that dies or fails to have one, then spends the rest of its time looking for a surrogate. From what the game tells us through notes and some of the runes and so on, that's just how they operate in general. Home-grown kin like the grody Ebrietas babies in the orphanage and the celestial emissaries born from Iosefka's experiments are free from the cycle of death and rebirth that Great Ones have. But either way, as you learn at the end of the game, having enough insight and general strength can actually ascend you to being a "real" Great One because it happens to you. What happens to your guy at the end of the game is what the Byrgenwerth and the Church were trying to figure out how to make happen that resulted in Kin. They're like a halfway point. edit: You edited your post and now mine doesn't make sense in the context of the new one! CJacobs fucked around with this message at 12:10 on Feb 3, 2018 |
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Feb 3, 2018 12:06
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CJacobs posted:edit: You edited your post and now mine doesn't make sense in the context of the new one! Sorry! You still had the answer though. It's this part: quote:They're different because they were once human, whereas a real Great One never was e: Ok, I think we kinda agree, I can easily see the interpretation that the player ending is the first successful version of the process. I still think there's wiggle room with Rom because even BB has this motif of cycles, and all this having happened before with the Church and the Pthumerians and maybe even Loran before that, but you could easily go the other way. hampig fucked around with this message at 12:23 on Feb 3, 2018 |
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Feb 3, 2018 12:13
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Well when you get as powerful as Rom or Ebrietas, there is no functional difference aside from their origin- the origin being why they're not actually the same thing, only kinda sorta the same thing. If Ebrietas was indeed once a Pthumerian like Rom was once a human, then that's the only thing that really differentiates them, but it is important because it's another link in the chain between humans and "natural born" Great Ones like Amygdala or Oedon. edit: I'd say the hierarchy from least-Great-One-to-most-Great-One goes: - Beasts - Humans that have been infected with the forbidden blood, on their way to becoming beasts - Humans like us - Humans that have been infected with the forbidden blood but AREN'T becoming a beast, like our protagonist character - Humans that were ascended to Kin via horrible accidents and experimentation like the Fishing Village inhabitants - Home-grown Kin like the Ebrietas babies and Celestial Emissaries created by Iosefka, or the Living Failures - Vat-grown Kin like the Celestial Emissaries that birth from coldblood flowers - Humans that were ascended to Kin but are close enough to Great Ones like Rom and Ebrietas - Humans that actually become Great Ones (our protagonist is the only one we know of) - Natural-born Great Ones like Amygdala or Oedon that always have been and always will be a Great One CJacobs fucked around with this message at 12:36 on Feb 3, 2018 |
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Feb 3, 2018 12:26
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hampig posted:I guess I have a hard time with the general notion that you should use game mechanics like +ATK vs Kin in a textual analysis. It works in Bloodborne because a lot of the game mechanics are clearly directly intended to feed into the story (for example, insight and blood echoes and the core story conflict of idiots using eyes versus idiots using blood to try and fail to become Great Ones), but in general I think that you should always play devil's advocate with yourself when you propose interpretations of the story under the assumption that there's a dumber, simpler explanation related to game development. For example, does the door in the chapel open after you kill BSB because of [story reason], or because they were just lazy and didn't bother making a key for BSB to drop or otherwise a better reason for it to open? I think either one is plausible really.
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Feb 3, 2018 12:30
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CJacobs posted:Well when you get as powerful as Rom or Ebrietas, there is no functional difference aside from their origin- the origin being why they're not actually the same thing, only kinda sorta the same thing. If Ebrietas was indeed once a Pthumerian like Rom was once a human, then that's the only thing that really differentiates them, but it is important because it's another link in the chain between humans and "natural born" Great Ones like Amygdala or Oedon. Lightning Knight posted:For example, does the door in the chapel open after you kill BSB because of [story reason], or because they were just lazy and didn't bother making a key for BSB to drop or otherwise a better reason for it to open? I think either one is plausible really. I guess I agree, and it's not like i'm strictly consistent either. For example the Ebrietas trophy is very explicit but it's hard to argue that it's part of the text. On the other hand with the blood colour I'm more inclined to think that it's errant flags in a database, but it's not the hill I want to die on. hampig fucked around with this message at 12:51 on Feb 3, 2018 |
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Feb 3, 2018 12:40
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hampig posted:It's always bothered me much more in readings of the Souls games which are much more explicit in their interest in Western symbolism and myth. Escaping the eternal cycle of rebirth is a (the?) major point of Buddhism, and there are obvious links between that and the curse of the undead. DS2 gets even more explicit with attachment and want being the root of suffering.
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Feb 4, 2018 02:17
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Guys guys guys I haven't had much time to play in the past week due to the flu but I beat Logarius after like 5 tries, Amagalyeda (w/e) on my first try, and Rom and first try!!! Wow! I'm like level 82 though. I'm trying to finish Eileen's quest but holy gently caress that guy is hard. I think I'm going to venture down to the DLC stuff and try it out but from what I understand I'll never beat Ludwig
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Feb 4, 2018 02:30
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karma_coma posted:Guys guys guys I haven't had much time to play in the past week due to the flu but I beat Logarius after like 5 tries, Amagalyeda (w/e) on my first try, and Rom and first try!!! Wow! I'm like level 82 though. Just beat Ludwig tonight, he was the first boss I had to summon help for so far. Actually wasn't too hard when your strategy consists of "only hit him while he's committed to attacking your buddy". Question for the thread, how does interrupting attacks work, exactly? I'm using that rapier weapon from the castle, and my transformed slashes do less damage than my untransformed thrusts, but on some enemies a single slash will appear to interrupt attacks that a chain of thrusts won't. Do slashing attacks just work better for that? Also, how many points in endurance do y'all prefer?
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Feb 4, 2018 02:50
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WaltherFeng posted:I put down "Only women here" sign outside Hemwick Charnel Lane Thing is that isn't true, there's several male enemies in Hemwick Reveilled posted:Just beat Ludwig tonight, he was the first boss I had to summon help for so far. Actually wasn't too hard when your strategy consists of "only hit him while he's committed to attacking your buddy". Going lower than 15 is generally considered a mistake, and most recommend between 20 and 25
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Feb 4, 2018 03:08
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drrockso20 posted:Thing is that isn't true, there's several male enemies in Hemwick Cool, I'm at 20 right now. I feel like sometimes I run out of stamina too fast, but on the other hand having too much stamina tends to make me overly reckless on bosses and inevitably leads to me getting slapped, kicked or sat on because I got greedy. Also, I really wish the doll set and foreign garb and the noble dress weren't so poo poo. Feels like every time I get a new piece of gear I compare it to my hunters set and it's either uglier but similar in quality, or much nicer looking but way less good. Looking forward to the Maria set though, which looks cool.
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Feb 4, 2018 03:19
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Amygdala is very interesting isn't really talked about all that much. Are the smaller ones part of the same Great One, or are they a species? Why is it the only one that seems to be bumming around the Material Plane?
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Feb 4, 2018 04:07
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Reveilled posted:Cool, I'm at 20 right now. I feel like sometimes I run out of stamina too fast, but on the other hand having too much stamina tends to make me overly reckless on bosses and inevitably leads to me getting slapped, kicked or sat on because I got greedy. Armor bonuses are mostly negligible. Only worry about them if you are dying to something specific. Say you just keep getting nailed by the arcane attacks Rom summons, go stack arcane resist via gear. Otherwise, the term "Fashion Souls" exists for a reason, wear what you think looks cool.
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Feb 4, 2018 04:40
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I just remembered that Abhorrent Beast exists and I have to fight him  I legit don't understand how you're supposed to beat this guy without cheese strats or powerful ranged attacks.
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Feb 4, 2018 11:35
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Kite Pride Worldwide posted:I just remembered that Abhorrent Beast exists and I have to fight him This may help. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3P8HSxvwSkU
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Feb 4, 2018 11:53
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Abhorrent, Headless, and Daarkbeast all have the same strategy: One hit at a time, GTFO, top yourself off, get back in there.
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Feb 4, 2018 14:09
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It took me like 10 attempts to beat Micolash, a boss I've never seen people complain about, it was loving embarrassing He absolutely refused to go the right direction during the chase scenes, the worst it got was one attempt where he went in a circle for about 7 minutes during the second half before FINALLY barricading himself into that last room. Every attempt after the third had something like that happen, I tried to approach him from different angles instead of simply following him to see if that'd help, but no. My hunter is so tired. I wish I could say I got chumped so much because I just got hasty and impatient, but it was also plain not learning from my mistakes. He kept stunlocking me with that arcane scattershot blast of his and I couldn't figure out the best way to dodge it. A couple of times it looked like it hit me full on, but I didn't take any damage. I really don't understand what I'm supposed to do during that last phase. At least his dialogue is funny
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Feb 4, 2018 17:23
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melodicwaffle posted:It took me like 10 attempts to beat Micolash, a boss I've never seen people complain about, it was loving embarrassing People bitch about him all the time, that fight loving sucks
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Feb 4, 2018 17:34
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Yeah like, "Hey this fight takes place in a 10x15 room and the boss has 3 attacks, one of which is a roaming AoE that tracks you, lol have fun"
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Feb 4, 2018 17:36
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Oh, my bad. Made the mistake of equating "never seen it myself!" with "never happens." I don't think it's a bad fight per se, I like the implication between 1) his immediate instinct being to run away from you and 2) only having 3 moves (one of which is a really wimpy punch) that Micolash is a chump who's way in over his head with all this cosmos stuff. Certainly he's competent to a degree, he was able to bring the ritual of Mensis this far, but the fight does a lot to set him apart, tonally, from everything else you've come across. His music's great too, also helps to establish that sense of "this guy's bonkers." Just, you know. That one move. 
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Feb 4, 2018 17:46
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The Micolash fight was definitely created dialogue first, fight second. "drat this guy can really awooooo, how do we make sure the player hears all of his lines?"
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Feb 4, 2018 19:52
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its that the fight is hard coded to take forever and involve a bunch of chasing him around hallways potentially getting hit by mobs. you can get killed by the jesters since they cause fast poison or frenzy, i forget which. As long as you get close to him he won't use A Call Beyond, but since you have to drop into the fight area he can sometimes move far enough away to trigger it and lol you're dead, time to redo the entire first half again.
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Feb 4, 2018 20:54
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Just run around the lower hallway to force his trigger early and then shoot him in the head from the balcony for the 2nd half. gently caress that dude, he’s the only boss I still cheese on my 4th playthrough. There’s nothing satisfying about that fight.
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Feb 4, 2018 21:28
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Yall gotta fight him the way you fight keeper of the old lords: stunlock into a corner until your bar's empty, blunderbuss until it's back
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Feb 4, 2018 21:40
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Ok, I need to get this off my chest. gently caress MARIA. It's like she deliberately lets me get her down to 10% before murdering me.
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Feb 4, 2018 22:35
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God that reminds me, I forgot to yell about it during Micolash posting but I tried to do Ebrietas and she killed me, unsurprisingly, but her life bar was empty so I knew it would have only taken one more hit...so I tried again it happened twice in a row. I was so upset. again, big arcane laser shows one-shotting me
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Feb 4, 2018 22:47
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Digirat posted:Yall gotta fight him the way you fight keeper of the old lords: stunlock into a corner until your bar's empty, blunderbuss until it's back On last AGDQ, Heyzeustherestoast did a R1-L1 then just moved to a side to trigger the tentacle, rinse and repeat so you don't even need to stunlock him. I prefer my cheese tactic of using poison knives from the balcony.
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Feb 4, 2018 22:48
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Reveilled posted:Ok, I need to get this off my chest. gently caress MARIA. It's like she deliberately lets me get her down to 10% before murdering me. You can parry all of her attacks including the grab.
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Feb 4, 2018 22:50
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WoodrowSkillson posted:People bitch about him all the time, that fight loving sucks case in point, that one time he stunlocked me with AoE just as I jumped down into his room
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Feb 4, 2018 23:01
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Bust Rodd posted:You can parry all of her attacks including the grab. The parry window gets smaller and smaller with each phase, and if I gently caress up the parry on phase 3 (and I'm an expert at loving up parries) I'm dead. I also haven't worked out how to reliably time dodges on her two massive attacks with the big windups (I'm about 50/50 on those), and if those are parryable gently caress me if I can get any sense of the timing.
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Feb 4, 2018 23:04
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Reveilled posted:Ok, I need to get this off my chest. gently caress MARIA. It's like she deliberately lets me get her down to 10% before murdering me. Maria is the best fight in the history of video games. You will feel vindicated and immortal once you take her down.
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Feb 4, 2018 23:05
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You can stunlock Maria forever as long as you use the augur. Of course this only works properly if you spend a bunch on arcane to get some damage out of it but still, you can use augur for backstabbing wich makes Maria and Orphan easier.
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Feb 4, 2018 23:12
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Reveilled posted:The parry window gets smaller and smaller with each phase, and if I gently caress up the parry on phase 3 (and I'm an expert at loving up parries) I'm dead. I also haven't worked out how to reliably time dodges on her two massive attacks with the big windups (I'm about 50/50 on those), and if those are parryable gently caress me if I can get any sense of the timing. Blood Angel Phase 3 Maria works like the beast bosses in that the safest place to be is as close to them as possible. You should always be closing the gap between you and her and when she charges up or doves dodging into her is the safest way to end up outside her attacks hitbox.
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Feb 4, 2018 23:16
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Yorkshire Pudding posted:Maria is the best fight in the history of video games. You will feel vindicated and immortal once you take her down. Every time I die I sigh wistfully and say "I can wait to get that weapon you're killing me with".
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Feb 4, 2018 23:25
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YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS I--I can't-I can't stop laughing
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Feb 4, 2018 23:34
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Ha ha ha have fun with the Bottom of the Well Boyz, who are probably the hardest encounter in the DLC even if you cheese it.
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Feb 4, 2018 23:57
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Bust Rodd posted:Ha ha ha have fun with the Bottom of the Well Boyz, who are probably the hardest encounter in the DLC even if you cheese it. I fell down a well and didn't die, then I met a fish monster, then I died.
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Feb 5, 2018 00:00
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Mercy for the poor, wizened child 
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Feb 5, 2018 00:53
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quote:He absolutely refused to go the right direction during the chase scenes, the worst it got was one attempt where he went in a circle for about 7 minutes during the second half before FINALLY barricading himself into that last room. Every attempt after the third had something like that happen, I tried to approach him from different angles instead of simply following him to see if that'd help, but no. My hunter is so tired. He's definitely not random, he runs 1 square away in the opposite direction to you (unless that isn't possible - notably the time he runs into the mirror) so you have to use the level layout to move him like a piece in a puzzle game.
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Feb 5, 2018 01:03
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Archenteron posted:Mercy for the poor, wizened child At least these guys have the decency to kill me so fast that I don't have a chance to use up my blood vials, I suppose.
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Feb 5, 2018 01:12
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Reveilled posted:At least these guys have the decency to kill me so fast that I don't have a chance to use up my blood vials, I suppose. You got gud parrying Maria, you can parry the Smash Bros too!
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Feb 5, 2018 02:13
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