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Dietrich posted:So the access to Bankcroft's money was based on the DNA of kovac's sleeve, does that mean that he lost it at the end of the show? Yeah the show had a lot of dna being used to access and verify stuff, like whenever anybody pays for something, and it's like isn't the entire point that your body doesn't matter
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Feb 15, 2018 03:29
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Phobeste posted:Yeah the show had a lot of dna being used to access and verify stuff, like whenever anybody pays for something, and it's like isn't the entire point that your body doesn't matter Nope. I get where you're coming from, but sleeving someone isn't suppised to be a quick thing. There is a SHITLOAD of paperwork that goes "We have received the person at this facility from the other facility. We have sleeved them in this body. This is their current face and DNA." Neddy Seagoon fucked around with this message at 03:44 on Feb 15, 2018 |
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Feb 15, 2018 03:41
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a better debate: episode 7 again or another philosophy of consciousness smugfest with everybody's displays getting a  being burned in the screen after another mention of fantastic jargon like "Shannon information"?
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Feb 15, 2018 03:45
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Would that be the original Episode 7 or the copy? Maybe if we spun the series up from the episode 6 back-up, we could get a better conclusion.
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Feb 15, 2018 04:00
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Neddy Seagoon posted:Your "brain state" is a flat image rendered on different hardware, and you just come off as a smug self-righteous dipshit with you poorly-conceived wizard example. Since your brain state doesn't care what hardware it's on (as evidenced by your perfect happiness living in a body that's gone through enormous material turnover), and your big old 'well, I can't argue with it, but I sure hate that I can't' at the wizard thought experiment, should I take this as 'yeah, you're right?'
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Feb 15, 2018 04:04
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Neddy Seagoon posted:Protectorate law tends to come down pretty hard on stuff that might rock the boat, so it's absolutely to stop some rear end in a top hat going "LOOK, THERE'S A DOZEN OF ME! STOP ME SUCCEEDING IN LIFE IF YOU CAN! Its the total erasure that made me think of it as a taboo, oddly enough. It reminds me of the fish avoidance in parts of Africa: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_and_drink_prohibitions#Fish (There's a great taboo based insult there, incidentally: "Speak not to me with a mouth that eats fish.")
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Feb 15, 2018 04:09
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". Also Double-Sleeving doesn't get punished with one getting wiped, they all get Erased. Kovacs only managed to swing getting downgraded to "pick one" because he brought down Reileen's criminal empire and handed them the whole Bancroft mess to play with. The Protectorate are assholes, but very generous if you give them nice things. (and, of course, still undermines the series' messages of "THE METHS ARE UNTOUCHABLE GODS, WOE UNTO COMMON FOLK", because the Protectorate just came down on them hard due to how it plays out in the book). The whole thing of "lol, we sold your sister to the Yakuza first chance we had" is just bad writing on the series.
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It would've been interesting (and maybe saved the show's version of Quellism) if their fear was an eventual breakdown of that taboo. There's no reason at all, in the long run, that Meths wouldn't start replacing their workforce with multiple-sleeved copies of useful personality and just letting the hoi polloi rot. Once the Meths don't even need your bodies or your brains you're hosed. Altered Carbon approaches Blade Runner in the long run!
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Feb 15, 2018 04:11
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General Battuta posted:It would've been interesting (and maybe saved the show's version of Quellism) if their fear was an eventual breakdown of that taboo. There's no reason at all, in the long run, that Meths wouldn't start replacing their workforce with multiple-sleeved copies of useful personality and just letting the hoi polloi rot. Once the Meths don't even need your bodies or your brains you're hosed. Altered Carbon approaches Blade Runner in the long run! Meths aren't some grand cabal though. They're are RARE individual old people in cloned bodies. The Protectorate will eagerly EMP them like anyone else.
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Feb 15, 2018 04:17
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Morgan's ideology is basically 'all systems tend towards complete value capture by the rich and powerful' so I think the Protectorate is more or less going to be an armature of the Meths by ~soon. Aha, it's right on his Wikipedia page! quote:Society is, always has been and always will be a structure for the exploitation and oppression of the majority through systems of political force dictated by an élite, enforced by thugs, uniformed or not, and upheld by a wilful ignorance and stupidity on the part of the majority whom the system oppresses. He seems like a fun guy
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Feb 15, 2018 04:21
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General Battuta posted:Morgan's ideology is basically 'all systems tend towards complete value capture by the rich and powerful' so I think the Protectorate is more or less going to be an armature of the Meths by ~soon. I mean...*gestures helplessly at like the whole world* he’s not wrong...
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Feb 15, 2018 04:23
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You seem to also be forgetting what kind of tech the Protectorate government and its military keep for themselves. The whole "a girl killed the entire commamd staff on Adoracion" thing doesn't actually work, because they tend to give their brass nice backup plans so they aren't lost to incidents like this. It made a hell of a statement, but didn't achieve much else.
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Feb 15, 2018 04:31
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This might be off topic but that NYT UFO article a while back made me think. My pet theory is UFOs are some kind of AI. They say the main thing separating us from primates is the spoken word. Maybe the thing separating us from space faring is not solving the faster than light issue but uploading our consciousness? Like if you assume these UFOs are not piloted by biological entities it begins to make more sense. Anyways random aside but found myself thinking on it as I watched. It would be kind of cool to put my brain in a spaceship and go explore the galaxy even if it’s lonely better than life on earth 
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Feb 15, 2018 05:35
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David Brin's Existence deals a little with this, though the travel is ultimately an intergalactic chain letter that tends to destroy civilizations in order to propagate.
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Feb 15, 2018 06:04
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What if you doubled sleeved into an opposite sex body and had sex with yourself.
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Feb 15, 2018 06:04
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Rhyno posted:What if you doubled sleeved into an opposite sex body and had sex with yourself. Well first you'd be hosed by yourself and THEN the Protectorate  .
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Feb 15, 2018 06:05
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Rhyno posted:What if you doubled sleeved into an opposite sex body and had sex with yourself. Why make it the opposite sex? 
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Feb 15, 2018 07:25
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Elissimpark posted:You'd be getting into some weird quantum physics - I can't remember the terminology, but there's something about being able to communicate instantaneously over large distances due to the nature of particles that have interacted at some point, which is probably what you'd be doing. I actually wish they'd done something more with the double-sleeving - to me, it seemed a bit more interesting that the copy/original stuff. Also: a hive mind of clones would be pretty cool - forgo traditional procreation and just have a line of clones, each raised as a child by the previous clone. And they all have the same name. "Hi, I'm Elissimpark and this is my son, Elissimpark!" Spooky action at a distance, yeah I thought about mentioning that previously. And yeah, I also wish they'd go further with the double-sleeving (or like I said before, what if one guy had 10,000 sleeves all with their own copies of his brainstate?) but the way that its so verboten in SC's universe means they're unlikely to do too much with it beyond the occasional Dimi or Kovacs situation.
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Feb 15, 2018 07:29
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maskenfreiheit posted:Why make it the opposite sex? You do you however the hell you wanna do you bro.
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Feb 15, 2018 07:33
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Elissimpark posted:I get what you're arguing here, I just didn't feel this was the case in AC. The back up is a copy, in the sense that its the same data in another form, yes - but by being the same data, it makes it the same conscious entity. This is why I read the threat of erasure for double sleeving not being a rational law (e.g. speeding can cause death, lets try not to drive fast) and more one of taboo (e.g. eating amphibians is icky). But at least in the case of things like backups, its not like you're experiencing some memory, dying, then having that memory removed so you get back to where you were, and then you're booted up. Instead you experience something new, then you die, then a you is spun up from the backup, basically from scratch. You see what I mean? I mean definitely the people of AC see it the way you're describing. They don't view it as death so much as just losing some memory. But you could totally believe that and be delusional. Its the star trek transporter problem. Or you could just accept your death and that there's nothing you can do about it. Maybe they're like people who are on a plane that's crashing; you know you're gonna die and you can't do anything about it so why panic? Do what you can. And instead of calling a loved one on the phone, they create another self to keep their loved ones company. Its possible Bancroft knows that in the case of a backup he might actually experience death, but he sees it as the best option anyways. Like the way you guys are saying it, if I put you "on ice" as altered carbon, then you're still "alive" even though there's no movement or heartbeat. And if I spin you up and torture you to death in VR, you're still alive because I still have the carbon that spun you up. I dunno, that just doesn't seem right to me. By that logic every second you are dying and another you is born. The way I'm saying it, you're a continuous process, until that process stops... and then you're dead. Even if another process can be spun up to look identical, its a different process, another instance of the same state. But we're probably just gonna go around in circles on this so whatever. But good on you Elissimpark for being a cool rational dude to talk to that doesn't fling overly wordy insults or spout stuff about wizards all the time.
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Feb 15, 2018 07:37
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Zaphod42 posted:By that logic every second you are dying and another you is born.
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Feb 15, 2018 08:58
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Zaphod42 posted:Spooky action at a distance... Thank you, that's exactly what I was thinking of. Zaphod42 posted:But at least in the case of things like backups, its not like you're experiencing some memory, dying, then having that memory removed so you get back to where you were, and then you're booted up. Instead you experience something new, then you die, then a you is spun up from the backup, basically from scratch. You see what I mean? If you ever get a chance to read Reginald Crosley's The Vodou Quantum Leap, don't. Its a super cranky book that tries to link voodoo to quantum mechanics. I don't have access to my books at the moment, but from memory, there's a bit explaining the voodoo trance - that is, when a follower is "ridden" by a loa. Basically, every entity has a "vibration" and when a body changes its vibration it becomes the entity that the vibration belongs to. A person ridden by, say Baron Samedi, ceases to be that person as their vibration is overwritten by the Baron's. I even think that the vibration is actually a probability wavelength. Basically, as you say, everyone is a process, but a process that can be interrupted and restarted without losing continuity. Incidentally, is that phrasing - a continuous process - from something?
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Feb 15, 2018 09:09
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Tiggum posted:The "original" and the "clone" are representations of the same data. It doesn't make any difference to the data which one existed first. Destroy either one and a representation of the data still exists, so the data is not lost. No one died. I believe it makes quite a difference to the person who just died. If you look back maaaany pages, before this became such a mess, you will see that the problem I have with this concept is, that I was wondering why people would accept a backup as a solution. Let's say you have 2 perfect clones with exactly the same memories. One clone is told: "Don't worry, there's a second version of you, so you will live on" and is then shot. Will it make the dead clone feel any better about having his current existence ended ? And it's the same thing with sleeves and backups. Why would (random name) David#1 think of himself as immortal, when David#2 gets activated upon his death ? David#1 is still dead in that scenario. Hammerstein fucked around with this message at 22:32 on Feb 15, 2018 |
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Feb 15, 2018 10:04
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We don't need to debate that dying in Altered Carbon sucks, backup or not. Kovacs says outright that Bancroft had a ton of brass balls to shoot himself, even knowing that he had a backup; he would have sooner died than lived with what he had done. To the wider world it doesn't make a difference which Bancroft presents itself, and legally it seems backup Bancroft is liable for the crimes he committed, whether it was really -him- or not. But to the Bancroft at the time it was a choice of oblivion vs life long guilt. The same goes for Kovacs' double. The surviving Kovacs isn't comfortable with the idea that another him was killed and implicitly feels guilty for surviving, to where he worries whether his double intentionally threw the RPS game.
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Feb 15, 2018 10:17
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Hammerstein posted:Let's say you have 2 perfect clones with exactly the same memories. One clone is told: "Don't worry, there's a second version of you, so you will live on" and is then shot. Will it make the dead clone feel any better about having his current existence ended ? I'll try to make this clearer. There's a person, Sam. At 12:00 Sam decides that he doesn't want to die and so he's going to make a backup. At 13:00 Sam is backed up. Sam is now immortal. Unless that backup is destroyed, nothing can kill him. At 14:00 Sam dies. There is now no Sam in existence. At 15:00 Sam is restored from backup. Sam exists again, not remembering the last two hours. He has effectively travelled forward in time from 13:00 to 15:00 without passing through the intervening moments. The Sam from 13:30? Doesn't exist. The same from 11:30? Also doesn't exist. Those are both previous versions of the Sam who exists at 15:30. It doesn't matter that one of them "died" and the other didn't, except that the current Sam doesn't remember being the 13:30 Sam. But if, instead of dying and being restored from backup, he'd just been drugged and unconscious for that period then he still wouldn't remember being Sam from 15:30. There is no meaningful distinction between these two scenarios. For Sam, anyway. Obviously it makes a difference for anyone who, say witnessed his death or was involved in drugging him. But to Sam it's all the same. That's why you get yourself backed up.It literally makes you immortal. It's not "some other person" who wakes up when you're restored, it is literally you in every way.
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Feb 15, 2018 10:46
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Tiggum posted:It won't make the dead one feel anything because the dead one no longer exists. Its hypothetical feelings are irrelevant. It's still a copy with delusions of perspective. All that's happened in this scenario is the original's died before the clone.
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Feb 15, 2018 11:21
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It makes a difference to Sam A that at 14:00 he dies. Or put it another way, if at 13:00 I back myself up and at 14:00 I die because my house burned down, the intense amount of pain and suffering I'm experiencing is not going to be diminished by the fact that at 15:00 my backup will be restored no worse for wear. In addition it doesn't matter to me what my restored backup gets to experience at 16:00 because by that point I'll be a smoking charred mass of bones and burnt meat. Backup me may wake up and functionally be me in every way, but upon waking up safe and sound I would be unsettled to discover that somewhere in the last two hours I experienced the vivid sensation of burning to death, even if in the moment I don't have any memory of it. This is what Zaphod42 is getting at and is the problem that is not solved by a backup or a copy. It is not enough to say that nobody experiencing this horrible death is around now. Somebody did experience it. In this way I don't see how my burned-to-death self would be any different from say my neighbor being burned to death and then never getting backed up, in terms of the suffering experienced.
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Feb 15, 2018 11:32
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To broaden the discussion, a brain upload process that is "lossy" seems more plausible to me than 100% perfect copies. And with that, you get interesting edge cases like Alastair Reynolds-style destructive scans which trade off physically damaging the physical brain in exchange for higher res uploads.
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Feb 15, 2018 14:09
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The Ninth Layer posted:It makes a difference to Sam A that at 14:00 he dies. Neddy Seagoon posted:It's still a copy with delusions of perspective. All that's happened in this scenario is the original's died before the clone.
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Feb 15, 2018 14:43
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Hammerstein posted:I belive it makes quite a difference to the person who just died. If you look back maaaany pages, before this became such a mess, you will see that the problem I have with this concept is, that I was wondering why people would accept a backup as a solution. This has been addressed in other media. Rick and Morty took this to the logical extreme with a society of Ricks. They do all care about themselves, act independently, and some even subjugate the others.
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Feb 15, 2018 14:55
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maskenfreiheit posted:This has been addressed in other media. Rick and Morty took this to the logical extreme with a society of Ricks. They do all care about themselves, act independently, and some even subjugate the others. Yeah, but those were all alternate realities, so they weren’t really perfect copies, given that there are a lot of variances between timelines. E:Fringe was great with the a and b universes. There’s even an episode where two versions of the same person spend a lot of time talking to each other trying to find the point of divergence that made them so different
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Feb 15, 2018 15:02
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Ravenfood posted:You're a copy with delusions of perspective. All that's happened in the last second is a copy of you replaced the you that was there a second ago. k I'll stop my weaksauce trolling for a second because this is what seems to be the funny thing about this all some of you say if you get the exact same arrangement of subatomic particles in order bam new you and then because yadayadayada hard determinism etc same consciousness emerge because it MUST, ok, seems fair an argument but why it has to? consciousness is one of the most baffling and least understood things in our entire collective knowledge as a species since ever and it feels very weird to say "hey this is 1+1=2 simple", then explain through "because physics!", yeah, like in the past century alone we didn't get some massive seismic shifts on our understanding of the universe in that field and lots of people ended very wrong again and again is there something in the universe inherently against existing some sort of undiscovered physical property (or something, I don't know jack poo poo about that so feel free to correct me) that guarantees that consciousnesses could be manifest differently even if all underlying structure is the same? idk, this could be a good topic in the light of the series, but with all the coming down, it just feels massively overbearing and pedantic
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Feb 15, 2018 15:10
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Neddy Seagoon posted:It's still a copy with delusions of perspective. The Ninth Layer posted:This is what Zaphod42 is getting at and is the problem that is not solved by a backup or a copy. It is not enough to say that nobody experiencing this horrible death is around now. Somebody did experience it. In this way I don't see how my burned-to-death self would be any different from say my neighbor being burned to death and then never getting backed up, in terms of the suffering experienced. Zaphod is, I believe, saying that if he were backed up and then died in a fire it would be fundamentally different than if his neighbour died in a fire, because then "he" would no longer exist, regardless of backups. Ugly In The Morning posted:E:Fringe was great with the a and b universes. There’s even an episode where two versions of the same person spend a lot of time talking to each other trying to find the point of divergence that made them so different dead comedy forums posted:consciousness is one of the most baffling and least understood things in our entire collective knowledge as a species since ever and it feels very weird to say "hey this is 1+1=2 simple", then explain through "because physics!", yeah, like in the past century alone we didn't get some massive seismic shifts on our understanding of the universe in that field and lots of people ended very wrong again and again The second thing is that we agree that replacing the entire body and brain gradually so as to never interrupt a person's existence, so that they remain verifiably alive throughout the process, results in them remaining the same person. You don't have to agree with that, but if you don't then you're going to have to argue that you die and are replaced by a copy many times throughout your life as all of your component cells/molecules/atoms are replaced many times. But if we acknowledge that there is no soul and that your entire physical body can be replaced without killing you, then what room is left to argue that a restored backup is not the exact same person? You can quibble over technology - like by saying that a brain is not the only thing that makes a person as the rest of the nervous system and the various hormones and signals from the other organs contribute - so maybe stacks as depicted in this show wouldn't work, but if you use a Star Trek style transporter that reproduces the individual perfectly down to the atom then you avoid that issue as well.
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Feb 15, 2018 15:32
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This thread sure is something awful.
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Feb 15, 2018 15:36
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Tiggum posted:It's not a copy though it's a fork. At the point that the backup was made, that person split into two people, both equally real, valid and original, one immediate and one displaced in time. One of those died and one lived, but both were continuations of the same person. If the "copy" says they are the original person, they are absolutely correct. And so would the meat fork be if they said the same thing. And since you started with one Sam and ended with one Sam you have no more nor fewer Sams, so Sam is, in every sense, still alive. Not alive again, not replaced by a flesh golem, not duplicated, but living on just as though he never died (because he didn't). If the meat Sam hadn't died in that fire then you'd be in the same position because the backup would never be activated. You'd still have one living Sam. You still seem to be considering this externally instead of from personal perspective, which is what we're trying to beat into you. Simple thought experiment (and no actual personal insult or harm intended towards you, just as an exercise); If someone sticks a knife in you and leaves you to die, are you going to be fine that a cloned Tiggum will be awake and none-the-wiser in an hour or two, or more concerned that you are about to die?
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Feb 15, 2018 16:27
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Elissimpark posted:Thank you, that's exactly what I was thinking of. I'll have to check that out, I'm familiar with the mythology of the Loa being able to "ride" people, so it'd be interesting to see that applied to philosophy. Hammerstein posted:I belive it makes quite a difference to the person who just died. If you look back maaaany pages, before this became such a mess, you will see that the problem I have with this concept is, that I was wondering why people would accept a backup as a solution. EXACTLY. The Ninth Layer posted:It makes a difference to Sam A that at 14:00 he dies. Exactly. I'm glad we guys are on the same page here and communicating like rational adults. 
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Feb 15, 2018 16:41
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Ravenfood posted:Right, but the same thing that lets me say that I'll still be me when I wake up in the morning, or get black-out drunk, or get heavily sedated for a heart transplant, lets me say that I'll still be me if another version of me goes off to die and I don't remember it. No because when you black out you're still there just running in a lower level of consciousness, and there's never 2 of you at once. Its just 1 of you, you kinda pass out, and the same 1 wakes up. You say that if there's 2 people but then 1 is shot then you're left with 1, so you started with 1 and ended with 1 so everything is fine. Everything is only fine for the outside world. To the versions of you, one of them existed and then stopped existing. You don't just erase that from history because 1 = 1. That's not logical. You're confused. Look at it this way, what if instead of death it was torture? What if you knew you were going to be tortured, so you create a double-sleeve and send the double sleeve off to get tortured. Now you don't get tortured, problem solved, right! Except not, because another you still gets tortured, sucks hardcore to be that instance of you! Maybe you're sympathetic to your clone or maybe you aren't, but either way one instance of you is suffering and it sucks to be that instance. Now how does death suddenly mean that instance never existed in the first place? It doesn't. That's a paradox.
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Feb 15, 2018 16:43
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Ravenfood posted:You're a copy with delusions of perspective. All that's happened in the last second is a copy of you replaced the you that was there a second ago. Only if you define "you" as a state, which makes no sense. Humans aren't a single state. That's a nonsensical way of looking at it. Life isn't about a single moment of data. Life is about a process of waking up and walking around and doing things, taking actions, breathing, staying alive, until you're dead and don't do poo poo anymore.
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Feb 15, 2018 16:44
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Tiggum posted:I don't think that is what Zaphod is getting at. His problem isn't that "someone" died, it's that the "original" died. Your point, if I understand you correctly, is that a human dying in a fire is unpleasant and should be avoided. It doesn't matter if it's another "version" of you or if it's your neighbour, you don't want that to happen to anyone. No, he is exactly right. I've said before there's no difference between the forks. They're both just as much you, with just as much of your knowledge and memories. But one of them dies and that sucks for that one. Regardless of if its the original or the copy. I'm saying if I was backed up and died in a fire it would be similar to knowing that I'm dying in a fire but my twin brother will live on because he wasn't in the fire.
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Feb 15, 2018 16:46
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Tiggum posted:This is kind of a different discussion though. Right from the beginning I've acknowledged that if souls exist then everything I've said goes right out the window. So there's your first caveat. If "consciousness" or some kind of "true self" exists then all that matters is what happens to that, not what happens to the body or the brain or anything else. Nah this still exists even without souls, don't let him saying "maybe there are souls" distract you. You still have the death problem with zero souls. I don't believe in souls. In fact Battuta's "you exist anywhere your state is, even if thousands of years later, even if not the same atoms or data or anything, even if 10,000 copies are made" seems to require a soul to me, because how else would consciousness transfer between physical bodies?
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Feb 15, 2018 16:47
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Zaphod42 posted:Nah this still exists even without souls, don't let him saying "maybe there are souls" distract you. You still have the death problem with zero souls. I don't believe in souls. Nah, just that each of those copies are you. Not a copy, exactly the same as you. At least at the moment of creation. After that they start to diverge and become their own dudes.
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Feb 15, 2018 17:11
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