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What about Tokyo SOS where Kiryu is explicitly built using the bones of the original Godzilla?
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Feb 12, 2018 16:42
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K Waste, buddy, you're reaching far, far too much with this one. The reason why it's an unstated fact in Godzilla 1985 that this is a new Godzilla, and thus why it's not weird at all why no one thought to ask why anyone remembers Godzilla from the 54 attack in VS Ghidorah, is because it was ALREADY stated in the movies that a new Godzilla would emerge. It was literally the last lines of the first movie. If Humanity did not change their ways, another Godzilla would emerge. This is already part of the films entire narrative and it only became so confused because fans wanted to make Ghidorah more confusing than it actually was. Everyone involved in the Heisei series knows drat well that this is a second Godzilla it's just not relevant nor shocking information. What is shocking is the fact that it is there at all.
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Feb 12, 2018 17:02
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Detective No. 27 posted:What about Tokyo SOS where Kiryu is explicitly built using the bones of the original Godzilla? There was also the plan to do a Godzilla vs Ghost Godzilla (1954) film, which means the writers knew there were two creatures in the Heisei timeline. LabRat1 fucked around with this message at 17:12 on Feb 12, 2018 |
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Feb 12, 2018 17:09
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Of course there were two The first movie loving sets it up. Every movie that directly follows the first movie uses this as a plot point in one way or another. G2K doesn't follow the first movie because it's set in this weird alternate history. The only time it was supposed to be the original Godzilla back was the time all the ghosts possessed the original's dead body and brought him back. They were quite explicit about that being a supernatural thing. Both Showa and Heisei even double down on Godzilla not being a unique creature by showing his children hanging around. Trying to argue anything else is just over complicating things to an inane degree
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Feb 12, 2018 17:15
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It's a good thing we actually managed to kill a few Godzillas because could you image THREE of the sumbitches strutting around at the same time?
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Feb 12, 2018 17:50
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It's the same Godzilla, he just reincarnates. Destroying his corporeal form is but a temporary setback.
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Feb 12, 2018 18:49
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In the Heisei films in particular, Kaiju seem to have some kind of "life force" that they can pass between one another, like Rodan to Godzilla in v.MG2 or Godzilla to Godzilla Jr. in v.Destroyah. So while a "new" Godzilla will rise from the ashes of the old, those old spirits still inhabit this new body.
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Feb 12, 2018 23:14
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Burkion posted:The reason why it's an unstated fact in Godzilla 1985 that this is a new Godzilla, and thus why it's not weird at all why no one thought to ask why anyone remembers Godzilla from the 54 attack in VS Ghidorah, is because it was ALREADY stated in the movies that a new Godzilla would emerge. Not quite. Gojira ends with Yamane prophesying that there may be another Godzilla if nuclear proliferation goes on unabated. This is not the same as characters in a new film set thirty years later seeing Godzilla - not being privy to Yamane's narration, because he has not literally stated it - and referring to him not as a 'new' Godzilla, or 'another' Godzilla, or even a Godzilla, but simply Godzilla. The film is about the return of Godzilla, a being understood and framed as a singular, persevering entity. Like nuclear waste, he was only superficially disposed of, made 'invisible' until finally bubbling to the surface. Fans don't want to make Ghidorah confusing, they want to rationalize the films as part of a 'universe,' when there was never actually any plan. The canon that there were all along two Godzillasauruses, and that the one the Futurians teleported was all along not the one that turned into the first Godzilla, creates an entire implied narrative that is never actually addressed or relevant in any of the previous or later films, because the films themselves are viewed as inherently insubstantial. All that happens in King Ghidorah is that the EEE moves Godzillasaurus to somewhere in the Bering Sea, and back in the future Godzilla is in the Bering Sea. The narrative of the film is not that there is a second Godzillasaurus somewhere who is the 'first' Godzilla. The existence of such a creature would clearly go a long way to sewing up the 'plot holes' that fans complain about in the film, but no such creature exists. More importantly, nobody in the film has any suspicion that such a creature exists. It doesn't ever occur to them, even when the plan to erase Godzilla from history clearly doesn't erase Godzilla. It doesn't even occur to them before the plan goes into effect! Fans find it necessary to invent an interstitial, 'secret' plot line because the text itself is treated as insubstantial and illogical. Godzilla keeps coming back, and there is no 'logical' explanation.
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Feb 12, 2018 23:52
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Mecha Gojira posted:In the Heisei films in particular, Kaiju seem to have some kind of "life force" that they can pass between one another, like Rodan to Godzilla in v.MG2 or Godzilla to Godzilla Jr. in v.Destroyah. So while a "new" Godzilla will rise from the ashes of the old, those old spirits still inhabit this new body. Note that this is different in the Kiryu films, where OG Godzilla's spirit seems to be part of his skeleton (although why he decided to be OK with being a human robot is something I'm not sure about).
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Feb 12, 2018 23:52
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Godzilla has two natures joined in a single hypostasis. The first is the physical, mortal Godzillasaurus, the last of his kind (before the incarnation of Godzilla Jr). The second is the divine godforce, the unstoppable embodiment of the nuclear age. The flesh of Godzilla may be used to create new life, as in the G-Cells that made Biollante and Space Godzilla, or the skeleton that made Kiryu, but both of these lacked access to the divine Logos and thus aren't really Godzilla. Post Resurrection Godzilla of 1984, however, was the same being as the 1954 Goji and retained both natures.
Mantis42 fucked around with this message at 01:01 on Feb 13, 2018 |
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Feb 13, 2018 00:52
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Mantis42 posted:Godzilla has two natures joined in a single hypostasis. The first is the physical, mortal Godzillasaurus, the last of his kind (before the incarnation of Godzilla Jr). The second is the divine godforce, the unstoppable embodiment of the nuclear age. The flesh of Godzilla may be used to create new life, as in the G-Cells that made Biollante and Space Godzilla, or the skeleton that made Kiryu, but both of these lacked access to the divine Logos and thus aren't really Godzilla. Post Resurrection Godzilla of 1984, however, was the same being as the 1954 Goji and retained both natures. How Chalcedonian of you. The real question is whether or not Godzilla proceeds from both the nuclear bomb and evolutionary fitness (G-cells) or just the nuclear bomb. 
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Feb 13, 2018 02:24
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Rough Lobster posted:It's a good thing we actually managed to kill a few Godzillas because could you image THREE of the sumbitches strutting around at the same time? Godzilla is basically the Joker.
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Feb 13, 2018 04:05
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Godzilla 2: Godzilla, Too?!
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Feb 13, 2018 04:12
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Mecha Gojira posted:In the Heisei films in particular, Kaiju seem to have some kind of "life force" that they can pass between one another, like Rodan to Godzilla in v.MG2 or Godzilla to Godzilla Jr. in v.Destroyah. So while a "new" Godzilla will rise from the ashes of the old, those old spirits still inhabit this new body. uh, I think that "life force" is called "Radiation"...
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Feb 13, 2018 23:16
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Mantis42 posted:Godzilla has two natures joined in a single hypostasis. The first is the physical, mortal Godzillasaurus, the last of his kind (before the incarnation of Godzilla Jr). The second is the divine godforce, the unstoppable embodiment of the nuclear age. The flesh of Godzilla may be used to create new life, as in the G-Cells that made Biollante and Space Godzilla, or the skeleton that made Kiryu, but both of these lacked access to the divine Logos and thus aren't really Godzilla. Post Resurrection Godzilla of 1984, however, was the same being as the 1954 Goji and retained both natures. Exactly, obviously much better than I could put it myself.
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Feb 14, 2018 00:21
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There’s no online way to rent Return of Godzilla or Biollante, right?
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Feb 14, 2018 04:27
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david_a posted:There’s no online way to rent Return of Godzilla or Biollante, right? Internet archive has the dubbed, international cuts of Return of Godzilla and Biollante, but other than that, nah.
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Feb 14, 2018 04:38
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K. Waste posted:Internet archive has the dubbed, international cuts of Return of Godzilla and Biollante, but other than that, nah.
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Feb 14, 2018 14:04
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International cut of return of godzilla is another dub than 1985 but has all the scenes in the japanese version and no raymond burr.
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Feb 14, 2018 14:22
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i want to buy shin godzilla but its impossible (europe)
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Feb 14, 2018 14:34
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Wild Horses posted:i want to buy shin godzilla but its impossible (europe) Can't use Amazon UK?
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Feb 14, 2018 14:43
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david_a posted:Are those worth watching? My understanding is that Godzilla 1985 modifies Return pretty heavily (didn’t bother checking how); what’s different about the international cuts? The international cuts just have horrible English language dubs, so with Return it's not the New World Pictures re-edit, it's just the original movie in English. Another trade-off is that the video quality is pretty abysmal and in the case of Return the sound mix is even worse. Return isn't on there, but KissAsian.ch has a pretty good selection of amateur-subbed Godzilla films. Not usually in the best quality, but for many of us it's the only opportunity to actually get to see the original Japanese cuts of any of these films. They've got Shin, too. http://kissasian.ch/Drama/Shin-Godzilla/Movie?id=31545
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Feb 14, 2018 15:46
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Davros1 posted:Can't use Amazon UK? I had issues with amazon before but i can try again. :’(
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Feb 14, 2018 21:53
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re-watch status report: Godzilla '98, underrated. Personal ranking of the different Godzilla periods so far: Early Showa 1) Gojira 2) Invasion of Astro Monster 3) Ghidorah, the Three-Headed Monster 4) Mothra vs. Godzilla 5) King Kong vs. Godzilla (UI cut) 6) Destroy All Monsters 7) King Kong vs. Godzilla (Toho cut) 8) Son of Godzilla 9) Godzilla vs. the Sea Monster 10) Godzilla Raids Again Late Showa 1) Terror of Mechagodzilla 2) All Monsters Attack 3) Godzilla vs. the Smog Monster 4) Godzilla vs. Megalon 5) Godzilla vs. Gigan 6) Godzilla vs. Mechagodzilla Heisei 1) Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah 2) Godzilla vs. Mechagodzilla 3) Godzilla vs. Destroyer 4) Godzilla 5) Godzilla vs. Biollante 6) Godzilla vs. Spacegodzilla 7) Godzilla vs. Mothra 8) The Return of Godzilla
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Feb 15, 2018 23:02
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Wait, you’re saying that the US version of Godzilla 1985 is better than the original? Why? I just assumed that anytime they edit one of these movies for other countries they end up butchering it.
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Feb 15, 2018 23:30
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david_a posted:Wait, you’re saying that the US version of Godzilla 1985 is better than the original? Why? I just assumed that anytime they edit one of these movies for other countries they end up butchering it. No, I'm saying Godzilla '98 is easily one of the best '90s Godzilla films.
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Feb 15, 2018 23:32
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Godzilla 98 is the one with Zilla
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Feb 15, 2018 23:35
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K. Waste posted:No, I'm saying Godzilla '98 is easily one of the best '90s Godzilla films.
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Feb 15, 2018 23:47
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david_a posted:I’m talking about your Heisei ratings. Right, and I don't mention '85 in my Heisei ratings.
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Feb 15, 2018 23:51
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K Waste, I am curious about what you think of King of the Monsters. Where would you place it?
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Feb 15, 2018 23:54
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K. Waste posted:Right, and I don't mention '85 in my Heisei ratings. Why is Return the worst? Poor pacing?
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Feb 16, 2018 00:01
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Burkion posted:K Waste, I am curious about what you think of King of the Monsters. I'd say, maybe better than Destroy All Monsters, but not as good as the UI cut of King Kong vs. Godzilla. david_a posted:Too many drat movies with the same name. Not just poor pacing but the utter banality of it. Godzilla's back, they throw him in a volcano. He's a force of nature still? Oh, yeah, buddy, Hell, force a'nature. K. Waste fucked around with this message at 00:08 on Feb 16, 2018 |
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Feb 16, 2018 00:02
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K. Waste posted:I'd say, maybe better than Destroy All Monsters, but not as good as the UI cut of King Kong vs. Godzilla. I'd largely agree with that. A lot of fans tend to discount King of the Monsters these days sight unseen, but it's a pretty brilliant little movie and easily the best 'American' monster movie released stateside in the 50s. It also has one line that is just so goddamn good. "You have your fears, which may become reality. And you have Godzilla, which is reality." David, these are just K Waste's personal opinions. Like, I personally really love Returns, I think it's easily up there for best made movie. I also dig the hell out of the first MechaGodzilla as far as entertaining goes, the soundtrack and MechaGodzilla himself are so good.
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Feb 16, 2018 00:06
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Burkion posted:I'd largely agree with that. A lot of fans tend to discount King of the Monsters these days sight unseen, but it's a pretty brilliant little movie and easily the best 'American' monster movie released stateside in the 50s. The pejorative attitude of fans to King of the Monsters seems to have actually started in earnest with the 50th Anniversary re-release of the original. It's then that I started hearing terms like "bastardization" that Roger Ebert used to describe it. Which is telling, because Ebert didn't even like Gojira anyway. It's this recurring problem of fans not actually liking things. Godzilla, King of the Monsters! objectively covers every beat of the original film. The only major change is done by the interpolation of Steve Martin as frame-narrator, taking charge in giving an optimistic commentary on the film's events. It's seen as minimizing the film's message by suggesting the finality of Godzilla's destruction. The problem is though that, obviously, nobody who actually cares about or invests in the films is fooled. Steve Martin is just a journalist who is documenting Gojira and commenting upon it, he's putting a 'spin' on it that allows his American readers to remain politically absolved. But the film-within-a-film Gojira is not about the world learning to "live again." It poses a fundamental question about humanity's future with nuclear proliferation. This is part of why the UI cut of King Kong vs. Godzilla is such a masterpiece, and why it's the only re-edit I explicitly mention. It takes that basic frame-narrative and then uses it to play into the film's absurdism. It becomes a black comedy about watching television.
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Feb 16, 2018 00:27
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The UI cut is just really good. I almost wish it could have been made in the modern era because there's almost this proto 24/hour news network satire to it
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Feb 16, 2018 00:31
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K. Waste posted:I'd say, maybe better than Destroy All Monsters, but not as good as the UI cut of King Kong vs. Godzilla. At the time the "eternal force of nature" reading was a bit new. In the original, he's the atom bomb, he's the trauma of WWII, he's something disruptive and unnatural- the idea of him being nature putting things back in balance may be prefigured in Godzilla vs. Hedorah, but I think this was the first film to really delve into the idea.
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Feb 16, 2018 00:46
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Godzilla 98's TV series would probably top out the Heisei rankings for me. Second would be either Biollante or Destroyer. And really, vs Spacegodzilla over vs Mothra?
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Feb 16, 2018 01:03
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K. Waste posted:No, I'm saying Godzilla '98 is easily one of the best '90s Godzilla films. its good for the part where its them running from baby zillas and really boring for the rest of it
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Feb 16, 2018 03:50
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mandatory lesbian posted:its good for the part where its them running from baby zillas and really boring for the rest of it See, baby zillas is the most phoned in part of the movie, so I know this is b.s. Things to like about Godzilla '98: The astronomical impotence and incompetence of the military, even by giant monster movie standards. Like, this poo poo is hilarious https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xiwtX0NC0uA Hank Azaria killin' it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jB9WGpVrYBs The slimy mayor of New York City is literally Roger Ebert https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1gBMR0VTzc The opening credits are sweet, and set the perfect tone for the film. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OAd5x9yfP2c There's a lot going on tonally and aesthetically in Godzilla that's very much like what Schumacher did with Batman. Like the classic monster movies it pastiches - Gojira, It Came from Beneath the Sea, Gorgo - there's this overarching sexual tension that gets displaced onto the monster. They even crack a joke about Godzilla's 'virginity.'
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Feb 16, 2018 04:21
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Godzilla 98 I've always enjoyed as a proper kaiju film. Even as a kid I felt odd referring to the title monster as Godzilla, since it seemed too different, but they nailed the inherently sympathetic nature these movies have for their monsters. The egg surviving at the end would be, in most movies, a frightening cliffhanger. In Godzilla its a positive ending. Its hopeful. The cartoon sequel picked up on that and ran with it.
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Feb 16, 2018 05:26
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