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"Why Oakland?" That block was the site of one of Wakanda's greatest mistakes, committed by T'Challa's dad. The movie has a lot to say about reconciling the present and the past. The supercampus built there is one of a series, and T'Challa wants to show his sister where a tragedy occurred and will be healed. I don't expect Super Advanced Africa to fix America's racism, but well-funded after school programs mentored by a prodigious genius in cutting-edge technology will move the needle a fair bit.
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# ? Feb 16, 2018 05:08 |
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# ? Mar 28, 2024 16:21 |
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The correct answer to "Why Oakland?"
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# ? Feb 16, 2018 05:13 |
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Well aware of Oakland's background, my issue with the outreach center being there is that, while it I appreciated how it fit thematically, Wakanda is supposed to be in the immediate vicinity of fuckin' South Sudan, like, priorities, my king. Y'all been isolated for that long, maybe start with your neighbors, because obviously poo poo's been going down on your borders, as we saw in that jungle scene.. This movie certainly chafes against the requirements of being a blockbuster Marvel movie, but do you really think this movie is implying that the problems of Africa are solely, or even primarily of Africa's own creation? C'mon, now. The whole reason Killmonger's father ends up dying is because he's trying to foment a revolution for reasons that are (and are portrayed as) completely legitimate. Feels like you're way too hung up on Ross, a tertiary character, because you really want a representative for the white supremacy that this movie is basically taking for granted with that very first opening sequence. I wish it had more colonizer jokes, a deeper critique of a lot of the themes it touches upon, and frankly, no white characters, but I also know I'm 'bout to walk into a Marvel movie, with certain requirements, and characters who were preordained to appear before the director was chosen, and adjust my expectations accordingly. With that in mind, I got something that I could appreciate in a way I didn't expect
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# ? Feb 16, 2018 05:41 |
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double negative posted:Well aware of Oakland's background, my issue with the outreach center being there is that, while it I appreciated how it fit thematically, Wakanda is supposed to be in the immediate vicinity of fuckin' South Sudan, like, priorities, my king. Y'all been isolated for that long, maybe start with your neighbors, because obviously poo poo's been going down on your borders, as we saw in that jungle scene.. my bad, i just saw like three people call it LA and was phone-posting and I really liked bringing the Black Panther "back home" so to speak. I'm sure they have literal trillions of dollars and massive amounts of tech to drop all around the world, i imagine if Nakia is disguising herself as a kidnapped girl to find and take care of the kidnappers that she knows where and how to put it best to use closer to home. edit: In a completely unrelated note that I found a little funny, the final battle scene kinda strongly mirrors the final battle scene of Star Wars Episode 1. Space battle, ground battle with armies and transparent shields and individual battle "inside" between the main character and the villain including a moment where the fighting stops and they have to pace back and forth waiting for a wall to go down. DC Murderverse fucked around with this message at 06:01 on Feb 16, 2018 |
# ? Feb 16, 2018 05:58 |
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Yes, I think you're right. It was probably too much to expect a marvel movie to buck expectations that much. Also, my assumption that the movie would deal with more white villains is affecting my judgement of the film. I still don't like the Ross character but I should let it go. On a more positive note, M'Baku ruled. What a total bro.
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# ? Feb 16, 2018 06:07 |
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garycoleisgod posted:Yes, I think you're right. It was probably too much to expect a marvel movie to buck expectations that much. Also, my assumption that the movie would deal with more white villains is affecting my judgement of the film. I still don't like the Ross character but I should let it go. the sound design whenever he and his army started grunting was awesome, it really felt like the theater was surrounded actually just all of the production values were really loving high (that Disney Budget got put to good use). Costuming, set design, sound design, music, cinematography, character design, all of that stuff was on point. I loved Shuri's lab, it was like Q's lab from a Bond movie but with this gorgeous African art all over. Actually the entire first third or so felt like an African Bond movie, especially the stuff in Korea. The future tech was also really creative.
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# ? Feb 16, 2018 06:14 |
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That was a really good movie. It was either the best Marvel movie yet, or Winter Soldier was. I think it's true that Killmonger overshadows T'Challa a bit, but to some degree I think that's because T'Challa spends a lot of time being silent and stoic and hurting himself. There are several occasions in the movie where he might have been able to turn things around if he'd been open and honest, but instead decided to stay silent, until he finally makes the decision to reverse course in the end.
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# ? Feb 16, 2018 06:17 |
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lmao at anyone thinking Killmonger was right in anything but what the truths he said about imperialism. That dude might as well be wearing an ahnk, as he is your typical hotepping rear end black dude. He doesn't actually want anything but himself at the top. He had no hesitation at throwing the black woman who was with him under the bus the second she became an inconvenience. And i disagree that the villian in the movie isn't white. While Killmonger is black, everything about Killmonger's actions and strategy was nothing but the white man's playbook, he did exactly what the CIA and other countries do to destabilize countries. Ross was whatever, they probably should have done more, with it, but I laughed hard at him like having no issues saying, "yeah no, this is totally how we overthrow regimes and poo poo, which we totally do btw" Also re: the ending and the center in Oakland, It's not that big of a deal guys, unless you assume with the speech he gave to the UN that Wakanda isn't going to also help the African countries around them. They just don't like need to build an outreach center because the city is like right there in the middle of Africa. Dexo fucked around with this message at 06:33 on Feb 16, 2018 |
# ? Feb 16, 2018 06:28 |
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garycoleisgod posted:On a more positive note, M'Baku ruled. What a total bro. His city RULED, too, holy poo poo. I really wish we saw more than two rooms of it because that dark wood paneling + open-air design was just
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# ? Feb 16, 2018 06:40 |
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Movie was dope. I'm tired. More tomorrow. I got this sweet rear end poster at the IMAX screening.
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# ? Feb 16, 2018 06:55 |
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These posters are going down hill. The last great one was Pacific Rim. Also gently caress them for not letting me snag 'em at the lobby when it's over and no one wants them.
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# ? Feb 16, 2018 06:56 |
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Movie felt uncannily similar to man of steel for reasons I will expand on when I'm not phone posting
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# ? Feb 16, 2018 07:24 |
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Kurzon posted:Maybe to him the CIA is just a job; he's just a cog in the machine That is literally the Nuremberg defence, my dude. Yaws posted:Give the villians motivations and goals to Black Panther and we'd have a loving dope blaxploitation movie. "Everything is fine, why don't you just want to carry on as is, orphaned, poverty stricken footsoldier of the military industrical complex?" The movie was fine, as the entire MCU is, but when you remember that it's fuckin' Ryan Coogler spending 200 million dollars on a Black Panther movie, and think what that might have looked like with some teeth, you'll weep. poptart_fairy posted:Seeing this on Friday and I'm really excited for it. I think that's a case of 'I hadn't seen this episode before, and now I have' And if anyone wants to read some nauseating hyperbole, "Some dipshit on Forbes posted:Ryan Coogler’s Black Panther isn’t just a darn good movie. It is a very good movie in a handful of ways that explicitly rebuts several of the ongoing stereotypes related to the Marvel Cinematic Universe. As such, its success won’t just be another feather in Marvel’s cap. So, before we see if the Chadwick Boseman/Michael B. Jordan/Lupita Nyong'o/Danai Gurira/Daniel Kaluuya/Letitia Wright superhero spectacular can break a few records over its Fri-Mon opening weekend (it has $23.2 million overseas already), I wanted to note specifically how this artistic triumph and (presumed) commercial success changes the narrative right as Marvel reaches the end of its first long-form story. You wonder why people like this don't just work directly for Disney, cut out the middle man.
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# ? Feb 16, 2018 07:41 |
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Killmonger was hotep as gently caress, I'm glad I'm not the only one who had that initial reaction still though, Michael B. Jordan should take home hardware for that performance. What a job
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# ? Feb 16, 2018 07:48 |
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ungulateman posted:Movie felt uncannily similar to man of steel for reasons I will expand on when I'm not phone posting Wakanda kinda looked like Kyrpton
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# ? Feb 16, 2018 07:52 |
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Copypasting from BSS: I don't know what the early reviews were smoking when they said Killmonger was rote or one-dimensional or whatever. I thought he was compelling as gently caress. Most of the moments of this film that just knocked the wind right out of me came from him. I do have lil' bits of nitpicks with this film (the succession system of Wakanda is just, ultimately...really loving dumb? Like you probably shouldn't be talking about how advanced and wise your people are when your monarchy is basically decided through blood sport and also it doesn't even follow any real line of succession but like, all your cousins and neighbors and probably the dude who sells cars a block or two away can just challenge your right to rule through fisticuffs so that's probably something y'all should look into fixing) but, man, this is definitely one of those movies that I wished would never end so that it would keep on taking my breath away over and over. Also: "Don't scare me like that, colonizer!" ungulateman posted:Movie felt uncannily similar to man of steel for reasons I will expand on when I'm not phone posting And like Superman there is also a sense of what he's bringing being "too good to be true." I mean, I suppose Oakland in the Marvel universe is gotta get vibranium-laced playgrounds or whatever...but the real Oakland in our world, that I live fifteen minutes away from, isn't gonna all of a sudden have a hot king show up to fix the county. So like Superman, Black Panther ends up being a kind of idyllic "wouldn't-it-be-great-if?" scenario. And it would be great...but is it really possible or is it just a nice dream? Are enough of the right people going to be moved enough by the mere dream of this film to take enough action to turn that dream into reality? BrianWilly fucked around with this message at 09:27 on Feb 16, 2018 |
# ? Feb 16, 2018 09:24 |
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BrianWilly posted:the succession system of Wakanda is just, ultimately...really loving dumb? Like you probably shouldn't be talking about how advanced and wise your people are when your monarchy is basically decided through blood sport and also it doesn't even follow any real line of succession but like, all your cousins and neighbors and probably the dude who sells cars a block or two away can just challenge your right to rule through fisticuffs so that's probably something y'all should look into fixing The only parallel I can think of in the real world is the Cult of the Birdman that the natives of Easter Island had before European contact. The natives held this competition where athletes would race to retrieve a bird egg from a neighboring island and present it intact to the priests. The winner's tribe would then get to manage the island's resources. It's the only example I know where power is awarded through a sporting competition. But yeah, I actually think it's a bit insulting to think that an African kingdom would run on chimpanzee politics.
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# ? Feb 16, 2018 09:37 |
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Just saw the movie. It was great and Killmonger was a very compelling villain.Kurzon posted:You don't need to spoiler this because we know this already from the comic books. I think it's more nuanced than that. When they go around asking the tribes if they're cool with T'Challa being king, it's implied that the leaders of each one are the ones who could challenge him, not just any low-level guy, precisely because they have the support of their tribe. This comes again when Killmonger does it: first thing he does upon returning to Wakanda is secure the support of the River people by presenting Klaue's body. Then he further cements his right to challenge by declaring he's of royal blood. And of course T'Challa had to take the challenge, because if not, that would lead to having another situation like with M'Baku's tribe, where he's also seen by the other leaders as the guy who couldn't keep the River people at his side
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# ? Feb 16, 2018 11:04 |
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Wasn't going to see this movie because for some reason I find Black Panther really boring as a character, but you guys seem to be liking it, so maybe I will
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# ? Feb 16, 2018 11:42 |
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BrianWilly posted:the succession system of Wakanda is just, ultimately...really loving dumb? Like you probably shouldn't be talking about how advanced and wise your people are when your monarchy is basically decided through blood sport and also it doesn't even follow any real line of succession but like, all your cousins and neighbors and probably the dude who sells cars a block or two away can just challenge your right to rule through fisticuffs so that's probably something y'all should look into fixing I got the impression that the trial by combat was a formality, at least for T'Challa. The practice existed as a check and balance, so that if a king became corrupt the tribes could throw warriors at them until one of them finally defeated/killed the corrupt king. The only tribe to contest T'Challa was the Mountain tribe, and they seemed to have legitimate beef with the monarchy, since they were ignored by the Wakandan rulers for hundreds of years. I don't think they intended to win, but instead remind him that they existed (and also let the moviegoers knew who they were). I really liked the film. I have trouble ranking the Marvel movies on a number basis and basically have tiers for them: Really good, good, medicore. Black Panther is up there in the "really good" tier with Iron Man, Guardians and Ragnanok. Marvel hasn't made a film that I would consider "bad", The Dark World had its moments (the portal fight is great) and Iron Man 2 isn't great in isolation but it works a lot better if you watch all three Iron Man films in a row. asecondduck fucked around with this message at 15:08 on Feb 16, 2018 |
# ? Feb 16, 2018 15:03 |
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So all my de-colonial peeps on Facebook are seeing this movie, and the common denominator is that Kilmonger rules and this movie might be a fed counter-intelligence project.
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# ? Feb 16, 2018 15:48 |
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COINTELPRO!
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# ? Feb 16, 2018 15:58 |
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K. Waste posted:So all my de-colonial peeps on Facebook are seeing this movie, and the common denominator is that Kilmonger rules and this movie might be a fed counter-intelligence project. In line with what Dexo said earlier, this is exactly what’s wrong with much of the anti colonial/imperialist discourse. Just being anti American Empire doesn’t make you good, personally or politically. This is how you end up unable to distinguish Hamas from the FLN, the FLN from the Viet Cong, etc.
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# ? Feb 16, 2018 16:09 |
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DeimosRising posted:In line with what Dexo said earlier, this is exactly what’s wrong with much of the anti colonial/imperialist discourse. Just being anti American Empire doesn’t make you good, personally or politically. This is how you end up unable to distinguish Hamas from the FLN, the FLN from the Viet Cong, etc. Nobody likes Hamas.
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# ? Feb 16, 2018 16:29 |
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I don't care much for the earthbound Marvel films carrying on from the first Avengers film. Namely Ultron, Winter Soldier, and Civil War. The ones with the geopolitical consequences. The themes that should be emerging from all of these global events regarding intervention (or lack thereof) are to me, so muted, in service of an otherwise pretty bland action movie. And Falcon, Vision, Quicksilver, Scarlet Witch, and now Black Panther - all of the next wave of Avenger Pals have not done much for me. Despite their best efforts, I find them either too stoic/militaristic or forced into very flat witty sidekick roles, and what I want is an emotional core, whether thats characters just bonding or something more fundamentally motivating. Killmonger didnt suuuck, but there was so much left on the table in this regard. I thought given the nature of Wakanda and their tech that I might get something more fun akin to the cosmic Marvel films, which I enjoy, but unfortunately not. Not mad, but disappointed. Good director, good lead actors. On paper I should be more into this, but I gradually zoned out into the "noticing all the dumb poo poo about the world building" space.
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# ? Feb 16, 2018 16:32 |
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Martin Freeman's character and his whole subplot kinda ruined this movie singlehandedly for me. I mean, in light of the MANY instances of CIA interference throughout Africa in the last several decades- from coups in Ghana and the Congo, to their involvement in French oppression in Algeria, to their presence in Chad and Angola in the 80s, to the assistance they provided in identifying, capturing and imprisoning dissenters for the South African government in the Apartheid era, and even up to their more recent involvement in arming and training 'moderate rebels' in Libya who went on to destroy the country and turn it into a terrorist-funding slave market where black Africans are being kidnapped, rounded up and sold into slavery literally right now- (oh, not to mention all that work they did gathering intelligence and assisting the FBI against the actual Black Panther Party in America!) it seems really weird and distasteful for Disney and Marvel to put out a fanciful and benevolent portrayal of the CIA's presence in Africa.
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# ? Feb 16, 2018 16:35 |
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The CIA wasn't represented as benevolent at all. Ross literally stated the bad poo poo they've done across the world. He ends up helping them out, but it's as much because he's as hosed as they are if they lose.
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# ? Feb 16, 2018 16:49 |
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Dexo posted:The CIA wasn't represented as benevolent at all. Ross literally stated the bad poo poo they've done across the world. That's the Marvel way too, though. Tony Stark is a blood-drenched scion of war but he had a sad once so now his good intentions are what matter. Lib thinking 101 to be honest. Lets you hand-wave Obama dropping 25k bombs on the middle east his last year in office because, you know, he's trying to be a nice guy. It's how every media article describes America as "stumbling" into war or torture. Anyway I liked this movie alright, I wish they had not done a couple of lazy things to make Killmonger worse and less sympathetic. They didn't trust their audience.
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# ? Feb 16, 2018 17:33 |
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Except they make it clear that T'challa, Shuri or any of the others in Wakanda besides maybe Nakia,and that's mostly pity and thanks for taking a bullet for her though she would have been fine) actually trust him or value his opinion all that much, he gave them info on Killmonger and shot down some ships. He is constantly getting ignored and talked over.(scene with M'Baku where he was trying to talk some dumb poo poo and they just chanted was great) The movie p much showed that T'challa and Wakanda wouldnt hesitate to undermine whatever CIA guy thought was the right course of action to perform their own justice Killmonger was sympathetic, I get his frustration, I get his anger, and he's justified in being pissed. Not to say violence isn't often(always?) nessecary. I just don't think someone who is using the tactics of an imperialist with no regard for people's lives is going to lead to actual change. It's just going to at best be changing who's on top. Dexo fucked around with this message at 17:49 on Feb 16, 2018 |
# ? Feb 16, 2018 17:41 |
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Just watched it today. I asked the other day if I should go for 2D or 3D and I would recommend sticking with 2D because gently caress those plastic piece of poo poo glasses. I mean I have bad vision to begin with (mild astigmatism) but those glasses just make everything worse. I don't think Killmonger was wrong with what he wanted to do, but maybe he was going about it the wrong way. I mean, it seemed like he just wanted to subjugate the rest of the world under his/black rule. Which isn't any better than what the Europeans did and T'Challa totally points that out when they were fighting. But it does make me wonder, where was Wakanda when the slave ships were being loaded? Where were they when white men were invading and colonizing? Where were they when random African warlord #37 was capturing and enslaving the people from some other African tribe? Are we just meant to believe that when Africans were being mass enslaved and shipped around the entire world to be worked to death, that the Wakandans were totally okay with it and stood idly just because it didn't personally affect them? e: I think the funniest lines for me were the don't scare me colonizer part, and also the first end credit scene when T'Challa said something like "[good people] build bridges while [idiots] build walls." I like to imagine he was talking about Trump. e2: Speaking of end credit scenes, there are two of them. The first one is definitely worth watching just for the animation they play during the credits before the scene starts. The second end credit scene was a bit meh. I'm not really into the MCU so the second and final end credit scene meant absolutely gently caress all to me. I probably need to just Google it to see what the big deal is. Boris Galerkin fucked around with this message at 18:12 on Feb 16, 2018 |
# ? Feb 16, 2018 18:05 |
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Boris Galerkin posted:Just watched it today. In the comics, they made a deal not to interfere with the slave trade and they would not be attacked. The entire movie was about the mistakes of the past generations and their secrets and how you have to forge your own path forward. But Yes, the Wakandans historically are and have been extremely isolationist, like shown in the movie so much so that the king would kill his own brother with little hesitation to maintain their isolation. This is shown as a massive flaw. My favorite part is easily the poo poo talking Killmonger was doing in the throne room. "Hey Auntie "
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# ? Feb 16, 2018 18:12 |
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Dexo posted:In the comics, they made a deal not to interfere with the slave trade and they would not be attacked. The entire movie was about the mistakes of the past generations and their secrets and how you have to forge your own path forward. Dexo posted:But Yes, the Wakandans historically are and have been extremely isolationist, like shown in the movie so much so that the king would kill his own brother with little hesitation to maintain their isolation. I don't think that's what happened though. Didn't the king want to arrest his brother and bring him in to be tried in court, but his brother pulled a gun on the other guy and the king acted out of defense? I can't blame him for killing his brother spur of the moment to save and protect someone. I thought the massive flaw was the part where they just left the kid to grow up all alone.
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# ? Feb 16, 2018 18:21 |
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Ross definitely has a clear change of heart where at first he's quarelling with T'Challa over who gets to have (jacked as gently caress) Klaw, but in the end he risks his life to stop the weapon transports (which struck me as a little overdramatic, as if the survival of the world or Wakanda's secret hinged on that one last craft escaping). All the same I'd have preferred he cleared the stage after Klaw's escape. Also with how hellbent Wakanda is about staying hidden, you'd think allowing a white guy in would be kind of a mortal sin.
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# ? Feb 16, 2018 18:26 |
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Boris Galerkin posted:In the movie they show that Wakanda 's technology was leaps ahead of what the rest of the world had. The General lady even joked about how guns were so primitive. Are you telling me that the Wakandans could not have defeated whatever colonial European power using "primitive" weapons like single shot rifles or whatever the British/Dutch/Spanish/etc had? Because the movie goes out of the way to show that they were the most technologically advanced people on earth, so I find it hard to believe that that Wakanda circa 1600s were not more advanced than the Europeans. But if that's what the comic books say then wow that makes absolutely no sense at all. They probably could have but they would rather just be left alone. So yeah it p much was FYGM. The movie does go out of it's way to show this is a bad thing. And yeah you're right about that last point.
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# ? Feb 16, 2018 18:31 |
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davidspackage posted:Ross definitely has a clear change of heart where at first he's quarelling with T'Challa over who gets to have (jacked as gently caress) Klaw, but in the end he risks his life to stop the weapon transports (which struck me as a little overdramatic, as if the survival of the world or Wakanda's secret hinged on that one last craft escaping). All the same I'd have preferred he cleared the stage after Klaw's escape. T'challa probably has some leeway being the Black Panther and heir appearant. And Nakia, his love asking him to save the dude who took a bullet for her. Winter Solider is probably a tougher ask but it seems like he was kept more of a secret to the Royal Family
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# ? Feb 16, 2018 18:34 |
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Dexo posted:COINTELPRO!
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# ? Feb 16, 2018 18:40 |
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Tbf it's not like there's a 60 year history of the FBI going into Washington and enacting violent regime change for profit
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# ? Feb 16, 2018 19:04 |
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Gorman Thomas posted:Tbf it's not like there's a 60 year history of the FBI going into Washington and enacting violent regime change for profit Yeah like I'm not out here saying anything other than I don't think movie was glorifying or saying the CIA are the good guys.
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# ? Feb 16, 2018 19:09 |
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it was pretty explicit that Ross said Killmonger was lifting plays right out of the CIA book, so he knew what was going on
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# ? Feb 16, 2018 19:16 |
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# ? Mar 28, 2024 16:21 |
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I have been watching the MCU movies with my kids and we are caught up through Dr. Strange. Should we go see Black Panther this weekend or should we wait until after watching Guardians 2, Spider-man, and Thor 3? Are there any connections to the other movies that would throw off the build up to Infinity War if seen out of order?
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# ? Feb 16, 2018 19:33 |