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skasion
Feb 13, 2012

Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?

Tighclops posted:

This whole season feels kind of like that episode of Voyager where that one dude tries to rip off Seven's nanoprobes and it's clearly an allegory for rape and abuse victims except in the last 5 minutes it turns out it was all a hallucination and the accused dude accidentally kills himself (...?!) so the implication of the episode becomes abhorrent even though you're pretty sure that nobody writing the drat thing wanted it that way

My thought was the Enterprise episode where turns out genocide was the will of God evolution. I guess an unappreciated benefit of old trek’s lack of serial plotting was that it kept the lunacy of the scriptwriters compartmentalized.

e: on that note, anyone want to bet on what terrible episode topic of yesteryear will be dragged out for ten hours of next season? Personally I’m pulling for The Omega Glory

skasion fucked around with this message at 22:04 on Feb 16, 2018

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Shibawanko
Feb 13, 2013

Star Trek writers are weird awkward old people who don't understand what ethics is

sunnyboy
May 10, 2011

Hawkmen Diiiiiiiiiiiiiiive!

cheetah7071 posted:

I wonder if in picard's time there's still someone plugging away at how to get a computer to be able to pilot a spore drive

Barcley's working on it now.

Powered Descent
Jul 13, 2008

We haven't had that spirit here since 1969.

sunnyboy posted:

Barcley's working on it now.

I wonder if holographic mushroom spores will work.

Or at least be his friends.

McSpanky
Jan 16, 2005






cheetah7071 posted:

I wonder if in picard's time there's still someone plugging away at how to get a computer to be able to pilot a spore drive

An undoubtedly terrible EU novel will posit that the Excelsior's transwarp drive was the spore drive.

MichiganCubbie
Dec 11, 2008

I love that I have an erection...

...that doesn't involve homeless people.

McSpanky posted:

An undoubtedly terrible EU novel will posit that the Excelsior's transwarp drive was the spore drive.

Wasn't there already a book that said that Excelsior's transwarp is just TNG-era normal warp? That's why they redid the warp scale between the eras.

Arglebargle III
Feb 21, 2006

Shibawanko posted:

Star Trek writers are weird awkward old people who don't understand what ethics is

Facebook Aunt
Oct 4, 2008

wiggle wiggle




Pararoid posted:

Did Michael really say that the Terran Empire controlled every star system in its galaxy? How does that even remotely line up with what we were shown about them?

They might be really good at stationary defences. Orbital weapons platforms and whatnot, able to fire at anything approaching a planet or the planet itself. If a planet gets uppity the orbital defences glass it. There are some rebels, but they don't control any space.

Also bragging/poetic licence. Obviously they don't have the technology to reach the Delta and Gamma quadrant in a reasonable amount of time, but since there are no known empires there it is regarded as uninhabited wilderness. Canada and Russia both claim to control huge tracts of basically uninhabited arctic wilderness that are never visited by a soldier, police officer, or any sort of government official. The Terran Empire makes similar claims about the 2/3 of the galaxy they've only seen through telescopes.

Facebook Aunt
Oct 4, 2008

wiggle wiggle




Cingulate posted:

I've completely forgotten what happened to Voq/Tyler. How long ago was the final episode? I think Voq/Tyler died. I hope he's dead. I remember he did Klingon things. Do I have extremely early onset Alzheimer's?

I hope Tyler is dead and gone.

He leaves with L'rell. Remember the TOS episode with the disguised klingon getting outed by tribbles? That was Tyler. The experiment failed so they don't make anymore like him, he's the same guy.



A few years older, learns to shave. Same guy.

Elissimpark
May 20, 2010

Bring me the head of Auguste Escoffier.

The Bloop posted:

Sure thing and I hope you are right, but it's not like they only had one episode without him - they could have wrapped it up in a less Poochy manner.

Lol, I'd been thinking that the season reminded me of the Poochy episode of Itchy and Scratchy. Just switch the fireworks factory for the Klingon War and the Voq storyline and Poochy for the spore drive and the mirror universe.

I really liked the idea of the spore drive, I just felt it was really inappropriate for the setting they chose.

Also, Burnham wandering around in the last episode being SHOCKED that evil Michelle Yeoh was being evil.

I have no idea why the writers thought Michael would have saved her - she watched her be evil and completely unlike her Georgiou over a couple of episodes in the Mirror universe.

Dr. Fishopolis
Aug 31, 2004

ROBOT

Facebook Aunt posted:

He leaves with L'rell. Remember the TOS episode with the disguised klingon getting outed by tribbles? That was Tyler. The experiment failed so they don't make anymore like him, he's the same guy.



A few years older, learns to shave. Same guy.

shovelbum
Oct 21, 2010

Fun Shoe

Facebook Aunt posted:

They might be really good at stationary defences. Orbital weapons platforms and whatnot, able to fire at anything approaching a planet or the planet itself. If a planet gets uppity the orbital defences glass it. There are some rebels, but they don't control any space.

Also bragging/poetic licence. Obviously they don't have the technology to reach the Delta and Gamma quadrant in a reasonable amount of time, but since there are no known empires there it is regarded as uninhabited wilderness. Canada and Russia both claim to control huge tracts of basically uninhabited arctic wilderness that are never visited by a soldier, police officer, or any sort of government official. The Terran Empire makes similar claims about the 2/3 of the galaxy they've only seen through telescopes.

I would think more than 2/3 is unexplored. There really historically haven't been many empires that held together territories that take more than 6 months to cross by ship edge to edge, 3 months from the center to any point. If you figure the Voyager ended up a bit less than 70 years away at maximum warp, you end up with about a maximum sustainable nation of a sphere 1/140 of the diameter of the distance the Voyager was thrown. You start putting these edge to edge and maybe yeah, it is a year at maximum warp to the far side of Romulan space, but we've never really seen it take particularly long to get anywhere pronto.

runaway dog
Dec 11, 2005

I rarely go into the field, motherfucker.
I find it amusing that they finally managed to make me like Tyler in the finale, having him talk about Voq's memories like a regular dude was cool, and I enjoyed the scene with him and the other Klingons gambling it was a nice moment (until Mike sullies it), then he leaves, oh well.

Pararoid
Dec 6, 2005

Te Waipounamu pride

shovelbum posted:

I would think more than 2/3 is unexplored. There really historically haven't been many empires that held together territories that take more than 6 months to cross by ship edge to edge, 3 months from the center to any point. If you figure the Voyager ended up a bit less than 70 years away at maximum warp, you end up with about a maximum sustainable nation of a sphere 1/140 of the diameter of the distance the Voyager was thrown. You start putting these edge to edge and maybe yeah, it is a year at maximum warp to the far side of Romulan space, but we've never really seen it take particularly long to get anywhere pronto.

I just wish they'd said 'known' or something. It just feels insane when you consider the distances and things like Mirror Borg/Dominion, even with spore tech.

Did the Terran Empire have spore jump tech?

The Bloop
Jul 5, 2004

by Fluffdaddy

Pararoid posted:

Did the Terran Empire have spore jump tech?

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 

CAPTAIN CAPSLOCK
Sep 11, 2001



Pararoid posted:

I just wish they'd said 'known' or something. It just feels insane when you consider the distances and things like Mirror Borg/Dominion, even with spore tech.

Did the Terran Empire have spore jump tech?

Nope. They were using their spore tech as a huge power source for the flagship.

Elissimpark
May 20, 2010

Bring me the head of Auguste Escoffier.
Was Tyler actually Voq's body mutilated to look human or Voq's body mutilated and jammed in an existing human body? I thought it had been the first, but then it seemed like Voq's psyche was somehow jammed in a human brain, which made the surgery kinda unnecessary.

Also, why didn't he just pretend to be human, rather than being made into a sleeper agent? All the PTSD stuff just seemed to make any plan to capture Discovery much harder than it had to be.

PostNouveau
Sep 3, 2011

VY till I die
Grimey Drawer

Elissimpark posted:

Was Tyler actually Voq's body mutilated to look human or Voq's body mutilated and jammed in an existing human body? I thought it had been the first, but then it seemed like Voq's psyche was somehow jammed in a human brain, which made the surgery kinda unnecessary.

Also, why didn't he just pretend to be human, rather than being made into a sleeper agent? All the PTSD stuff just seemed to make any plan to capture Discovery much harder than it had to be.

He's too goddamn dumb to pretend to be human.

Cojawfee
May 31, 2006
I think the US is dumb for not using Celsius

Elissimpark posted:

Was Tyler actually Voq's body mutilated to look human or Voq's body mutilated and jammed in an existing human body? I thought it had been the first, but then it seemed like Voq's psyche was somehow jammed in a human brain, which made the surgery kinda unnecessary.

Also, why didn't he just pretend to be human, rather than being made into a sleeper agent? All the PTSD stuff just seemed to make any plan to capture Discovery much harder than it had to be.

It was Voq's body mutilated to look human. Maybe they used Ash's actual skin to cover Voq's body, but it's Voq. Like PosNouveau said, he was too stupid to not give himself up when his psyche was brought to the surface.

Facebook Aunt
Oct 4, 2008

wiggle wiggle




Elissimpark posted:

Was Tyler actually Voq's body mutilated to look human or Voq's body mutilated and jammed in an existing human body? I thought it had been the first, but then it seemed like Voq's psyche was somehow jammed in a human brain, which made the surgery kinda unnecessary.

Also, why didn't he just pretend to be human, rather than being made into a sleeper agent? All the PTSD stuff just seemed to make any plan to capture Discovery much harder than it had to be.

It's supposed to be Voq's body with extensive surgery and DNA gene therapy so his blood and everything seems human, at least to the standard medical scans used at the time. It's also Voq's brain, with a copy of Tyler's brainwave patterns, memories and personality overlayed on top somehow. Presumably the real Tyler is dead, but I don't think we know for sure.

Voq can't just pretend to be human because he's an inflexible idiot. He'd need to speak perfect english with the correct accent. He'd need to somehow imitate human brainwaves. He'd need to memorize Tyler's entire life history and training in case he ran into someone who knew the real Tyler. All so he could possibly pass as fit for duty and be given access to sensitive areas rather than immediately dropped off at a strategically worthless medical base. Which shouldn't have worked anyway, after 6 months of torture in a Klingon prison ship he ought to have been sent home for shore leave and therapy, not immediately put back to work on literally the most valuable and secret ship in starfleet. Lucky for him Lorca was a maniac.


10-ish years later standard tricorders are easily able to detect Arne Darvin (Tyler) is a secret klingon, so they do learn from this.

Elissimpark
May 20, 2010

Bring me the head of Auguste Escoffier.

Cojawfee posted:

It was Voq's body mutilated to look human. Maybe they used Ash's actual skin to cover Voq's body, but it's Voq. Like PosNouveau said, he was too stupid to not give himself up when his psyche was brought to the surface.

Facebook Aunt posted:

It's supposed to be Voq's body with extensive surgery and DNA gene therapy so his blood and everything seems human, at least to the standard medical scans used at the time. It's also Voq's brain, with a copy of Tyler's brainwave patterns, memories and personality overlayed on top somehow. Presumably the real Tyler is dead, but I don't think we know for sure.

Voq can't just pretend to be human because he's an inflexible idiot. He'd need to speak perfect english with the correct accent. He'd need to somehow imitate human brainwaves. He'd need to memorize Tyler's entire life history and training in case he ran into someone who knew the real Tyler. All so he could possibly pass as fit for duty and be given access to sensitive areas rather than immediately dropped off at a strategically worthless medical base. Which shouldn't have worked anyway, after 6 months of torture in a Klingon prison ship he ought to have been sent home for shore leave and therapy, not immediately put back to work on literally the most valuable and secret ship in starfleet. Lucky for him Lorca was a maniac.

Thanks, that's exactly what I thought, but the weirdness with the buried personality made me question what I'd seen. I still don't understand why L'Rell effectively killed Voq rather than deleting the overlaid brain pattern, but whatever.

The Golden Gael
Nov 12, 2011

Example of the exact Star Trek fan even Mike "I'd Like To Bring Up Star Trek" Stoklasa makes fun of:

quote:

It was to be expected that, unlike Star Trek Enterprise, Discovery would not respect the look of the original USS Enterprise NCC-1701. Their Enterprise is described as an "olive branch to fans concerned about old-school canon". Well, I am such a fan, and to me it is a further slap in the face. Like everything else that the producers deemed dated, the ship was redesigned to fit with the reimagination dictate of the series.

How dare it not be as accurate as a cheap shoestring 3D model from 2006!!

bull3964
Nov 18, 2000

DO YOU HEAR THAT? THAT'S THE SOUND OF ME PATTING MYSELF ON THE BACK.


As someone who has seen the original model in person after restoration, gently caress anyone who says it looks "cheap."

The Golden Gael
Nov 12, 2011

bull3964 posted:

As someone who has seen the original model in person after restoration, gently caress anyone who says it looks "cheap."

I'm not talking about the original TV model (which you can do lighting things with to make look fancy and dramatic) but the CGI one from the 40th anniversary

bull3964
Nov 18, 2000

DO YOU HEAR THAT? THAT'S THE SOUND OF ME PATTING MYSELF ON THE BACK.


But why bring that one up when all we are taking about is the basic design? I don't think anyone expected (or wanted) anyone to use the exact same model as the remastered TOS episodes.

However, they were in the perfect position to take 3d scans and pictures of the real thing and tweak from there (add some more windows, light some things better.)

Instead we got yet another John Eves special who has been an blight on Trek's visual design since the Enterprise E.

The Golden Gael
Nov 12, 2011

I really don't think that's accurate, the new ship looks nice and faithful for the most part and those blue sides of the nacelles were always intended for the 60s version. Obviously the ship is going to need to fit the newer aesthetic of the DISCO design or it will stick out. Even the Defiant has minor differences between the appearance in Remastered TOS and Enterprise (mostly the bussard ramscoops)

Taear
Nov 26, 2004

Ask me about the shitty opinions I have about Paradox games!
The resolution of the war then really was absolutely ridiculous.
Also if those uncloaked Klingons are heading to Earth where was any ship at all ever trying to defend it? Was the whole fleet destroyed?

It's just like the new game of thrones, nothing hangs together properly and the show is just moving from dramatic thing to dramatic thing regardless of if it makes sense in the world.

bull3964
Nov 18, 2000

DO YOU HEAR THAT? THAT'S THE SOUND OF ME PATTING MYSELF ON THE BACK.


The nacelles are fine. The impulse engines are fine. I don't think the pylons for the nacelles work. That has nothing to do with any canon complaints, it's just that the art deco inspired pylons clash with the nacelles on the end. They don't go well together and are jarring visually.

What's terrible looking is the excessive azteching of the hull that Eves just can't stop doing.

Some azteching looks fine. It works well on the Enterprise D and the Constitution refit originated the effect, but to a much more subdue extent. The closeups of the new enterprise looked absolutely terrible due to the heavy metallic look with the over-busy surface texture. It looked like a cheap unpainted die-cast model.

Lovely Joe Stalin
Jun 12, 2007

Our Lovely Wang
The original Enterprise looked like poo poo in the '60s let alone now.

The Bloop
Jul 5, 2004

by Fluffdaddy

Lovely Joe Stalin posted:

The original Enterprise looked like poo poo in the '60s let alone now.
Ok

The Golden Gael
Nov 12, 2011

It's not so much that it looks like poo poo so much that I think the gross under-aztecing you see in a lot of the older film (especially on the kitbash ships used for destroying models like Constellation) makes it look flat and cheap, like plastic or painted wood. So when you have people who are too faithful to that aesthetic, like the ones who did the 2006 CGI shots, it isn't believable as a modern vision of a starship. Do note that the 2006 TOS-R shots predate the Smithsonian restoration.

While I don't really get why the used the swept pylons if the whole point was to preserve canon, having them just straight pillars gives the impression that they're flimsy. Like it or not the JJ Trek ship at least made the form of the ship look a bit more believable because they were curvy and had mass.

shovelbum
Oct 21, 2010

Fun Shoe
I'm still not sure why in 2018 we are talking about "aztecing". Ships are allowed to have smooth hulls, seagoing ships, airplanes, rockets, there's not like this patterning going on. There are visual details from wear, panels, etc and in this day and age you should just model it directly

Tighclops
Jan 23, 2008

Unable to deal with it


Grimey Drawer
I think the Enterprise looked mostly ok given the fugly rear end show it appeared in, but John Eaves really needs to stop getting work

either that or he needs to go work on an IP where his style is more appropriate, like he could probably design some pretty ok looking Transformers until his look gets old

Arglebargle III
Feb 21, 2006

Lovely Joe Stalin posted:

The original Enterprise looked like poo poo in the '60s let alone now.

Sir this is the Smithsonian, please keep your voice down.

Timby
Dec 23, 2006

Your mother!

God, gently caress Eaves. "Hey, we have this really amazing Romulan Warbird design that's never been seen on the big screen ... so let's throw it out and redesign it!"



Edit: And then the loving Scimitar, Jesus.

Timby fucked around with this message at 18:40 on Feb 17, 2018

The Bloop
Jul 5, 2004

by Fluffdaddy
Discoprise gave me nostalgia but not in the way they intended


Thom12255
Feb 23, 2013
WHERE THE FUCK IS MY MONEY
Eaves did a better job on the Starfleet ships. I love the Sovereign.

Frionnel
May 7, 2010

Friends are what make testing worth it.

The Golden Gael posted:

So when you have people who are too faithful to that aesthetic, like the ones who did the 2006 CGI shots, it isn't believable as a modern vision of a starship. Do note that the 2006 TOS-R shots predate the Smithsonian restoration.

I'm honestly glad they didn't go further with the 2006 CGI. It's supposed to belong in TOS, not show "a modern vision of a starship" that would have clashed with everything else in the show.

Obviously if that model had been made for a new show it would have looked completely different.

Lovely Joe Stalin posted:

The original Enterprise looked like poo poo in the '60s

Source your quotes.

Frionnel fucked around with this message at 19:36 on Feb 17, 2018

PostNouveau
Sep 3, 2011

VY till I die
Grimey Drawer

Taear posted:

It's just like the new game of thrones, nothing hangs together properly and the show is just moving from dramatic thing to dramatic thing regardless of if it makes sense in the world.

I think they knew that, and that's why there's a big "Hey! Look over here! It's the Enterprise!" at the end.

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Big Mean Jerk
Jan 27, 2009

Well, of course I know him.
He's me.

Thom12255 posted:

Eaves did a better job on the Starfleet ships. I love the Sovereign.

Sovereign looks fine in First Contact and Insurrection but the cg aztecing and textures in Nemesis are atrocious. That design looks far better when it isn’t painted in black and charcoal grey.

It’s also very dependent on getting that perfect angle shot.

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