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stev
Jan 22, 2013

Please be excited.



nopantsjack posted:

"here is our vibranium powered super MRI machine, you can use it to-"

*america builds a big bomb*

iirc bilbo is a CIA agent right? is that why he's trying to get in good with BP, that would actually be sorta smart

This is definitely T'Challa's fault, you're right. They should never leave their bubble city.

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Bulkiest Toaster
Jan 22, 2013

by R. Guyovich
I think some of you are missing some of the more symbolic themes of the film that show the black man's subconscious struggles I think it is interesting that the villain of the film is essentially an American black who talks in an American style, lived in Oakland, has a hip hop aesthetic, was a CIA creation, and has an absentee father and was abandoned by his only other father figure (the king). How many black people in America does this represent in some fashion? Last time I checked the black community had like a 70% out of wedlock birth rate. Contrast this with T'challa who has a present father figure and lives in a well rounded culture without BET or the CIA selling crack. He embraces science and technology and is much more well rounded individual. Wakanda itself basically represents the heart and soul of the black man and the events of the film are a power struggle over who will control the black man. Either an authentic embrace of civilization and science represented by the T'challa and his family, or an anti-science imperialism based on hip hop ghetto black values and the knockout game. Which in turn are pretty much constructs of slavery imperialism and the CIA.

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

FilthyImp
Sep 30, 2002

Anime Deviant

Bulkiest Toaster posted:

based on hip hop ghetto black values and the knockout game
:yikes:

Please source your review if it comes from Reddit/4chan

Dexo
Aug 15, 2009

A city that was to live by night after the wilderness had passed. A city that was to forge out of steel and blood-red neon its own peculiar wilderness.

Bulkiest Toaster posted:

I think some of you are missing some of the more symbolic themes of the film that show the black man's subconscious struggles I think it is interesting that the villain of the film is essentially an American black who talks in an American style, lived in Oakland, has a hip hop aesthetic, was a CIA creation, and has an absentee father and was abandoned by his only other father figure (the king). How many black people in America does this represent in some fashion? Last time I checked the black community had like a 70% out of wedlock birth rate. Contrast this with T'challa who has a present father figure and lives in a well rounded culture without BET or the CIA selling crack. He embraces science and technology and is much more well rounded individual. Wakanda itself basically represents the heart and soul of the black man and the events of the film are a power struggle over who will control the black man. Either an authentic embrace of civilization and science represented by the T'challa and his family, or an anti-science imperialism based on hip hop ghetto black values and the knockout game. Which in turn are pretty much constructs of slavery imperialism and the CIA.

:thunk:

PostNouveau
Sep 3, 2011

VY till I die
Grimey Drawer

Bulkiest Toaster posted:

I think some of you are missing some of the more symbolic themes of the film that show the black man's subconscious struggles I think it is interesting that the villain of the film is essentially an American black who talks in an American style, lived in Oakland, has a hip hop aesthetic, was a CIA creation, and has an absentee father and was abandoned by his only other father figure (the king). How many black people in America does this represent in some fashion? Last time I checked the black community had like a 70% out of wedlock birth rate. Contrast this with T'challa who has a present father figure and lives in a well rounded culture without BET or the CIA selling crack. He embraces science and technology and is much more well rounded individual. Wakanda itself basically represents the heart and soul of the black man and the events of the film are a power struggle over who will control the black man. Either an authentic embrace of civilization and science represented by the T'challa and his family, or an anti-science imperialism based on hip hop ghetto black values and the knockout game. Which in turn are pretty much constructs of slavery imperialism and the CIA.

The bad guy is an MIT grad :psyduck: Tony Stark's alma mater

Arist
Feb 13, 2012

who, me?


Lol some of you motherfuckers are hardcore racist

Bulkiest Toaster
Jan 22, 2013

by R. Guyovich

PostNouveau posted:

The bad guy is an MIT grad :psyduck: Tony Stark's alma mater

Yeah that is the ironic part, the bad guy grew up on the wrong side of the tracks in oakland in 1992 but overcame intense structural racism to become a graduate of annapolis, MIT, and a US Navy Seal, but he still has a chip on his shoulder and believes he is victimized. Compare to T'challa who seems to have a happy loving relationship with his family and spends his free time rescuing girls captured by boko haram. Shows you the importance of having a good family life.

Arist
Feb 13, 2012

who, me?



Hey if you have some kind of beef with me it's kind of pathetic, actually articulate a loving argument instead of pulling this poo poo. You're a bad poster.

bushisms.txt posted:

If the 2nd credit scene was cia dude pulling a revolver ocelot and saying the plan worked, the movie wouldn't have changed a bit. He treats them like poo poo until he is saved/realizes they have value, earns their trust and then is instrumental in getting them to hand over tech to the US. He should've whipped off a mask to reveal to be Black widow. The movie uses black history without doing it's home work, as black isolation is a good thing for our people considering the United States history like Tulsa's black wall Street.

That's not in the movie, so what the gently caress is your point? Also he doesn't treat them like poo poo, he literally saves one of their lives? Also, they're not handing their tech over to "the US." They're sharing it with the world. That's kind of a key loving difference.

The point of that midcredits scene is the ethos established by the entire rest of the film: Wakanda has the power to protect itself while helping the world.

Arist fucked around with this message at 16:57 on Feb 18, 2018

PostNouveau
Sep 3, 2011

VY till I die
Grimey Drawer

Bulkiest Toaster posted:

Yeah that is the ironic part, the bad guy grew up on the wrong side of the tracks in oakland in 1992 but overcame intense structural racism to become a graduate of annapolis, MIT, and a US Navy Seal, but he still has a chip on his shoulder and believes he is victimized. Compare to T'challa who seems to have a happy loving relationship with his family and spends his free time rescuing girls captured by boko haram. Shows you the importance of having a good family life.

How is he anti-science if he went to the MCU super science college?

Knockout game? wtf are you talking about?

McCloud
Oct 27, 2005

Arist posted:

Hey if you have some kind of beef with me it's kind of pathetic, actually articulate a loving argument instead of pulling this poo poo. You're a bad poster.


Pot, kettle, black, etc. This makes me wonder if are you completly lacking self awareness though.

McCloud
Oct 27, 2005

Can we talk about about how convoluted Killmongers plan was for a second?

So he teams up with Klaus to steal the vibranium, tips of the Wakandans about the deal, so they come to collect. So far so good. But then he anticipates the CIA buying the piece, and that BP would let the CIA take Klaus to a safe house, and then be able to break him out of said safe house.

That's a lot of variables. What if he fails to get him out and Klaus dies in the process? What if the CIA got outbid by Hydra? What if BP just murders Klaus on the spot in the Casino?
Also where did the sonic weapon Klaus use come from, anyways?

McCloud fucked around with this message at 17:58 on Feb 18, 2018

Arist
Feb 13, 2012

who, me?


Again, I don't know what the hell your problem is but loving let it go, dude. Whatever the hell that was is not in any way an appropriate response to what I said to you in that you still haven't made a loving argument outside of pissy bullshit. Nobody actually wants to read this (especially not me) and it seems liable to devolve into name-calling, so hopefully that's the end of it. If not, then come back with some actual substance instead of going "no, it is you who are dumb."

KidDynamite
Feb 11, 2005

Bulkiest Toaster posted:

I think some of you are missing some of the more symbolic themes of the film that show the black man's subconscious struggles I think it is interesting that the villain of the film is essentially an American black who talks in an American style, lived in Oakland, has a hip hop aesthetic, was a CIA creation, and has an absentee father and was abandoned by his only other father figure (the king). How many black people in America does this represent in some fashion? Last time I checked the black community had like a 70% out of wedlock birth rate. Contrast this with T'challa who has a present father figure and lives in a well rounded culture without BET or the CIA selling crack. He embraces science and technology and is much more well rounded individual. Wakanda itself basically represents the heart and soul of the black man and the events of the film are a power struggle over who will control the black man. Either an authentic embrace of civilization and science represented by the T'challa and his family, or an anti-science imperialism based on hip hop ghetto black values and the knockout game. Which in turn are pretty much constructs of slavery imperialism and the CIA.

Yo could you not post your racist overtures about why the black man is betrodden by hip hop, you loving dingus.

FilthyImp
Sep 30, 2002

Anime Deviant

McCloud posted:

Can we talk about about how convoluted Killmongers plan was for a second?
It's literally Use Klaue to discredit T'chala and ingratiate himself with Wakandans

I think people are making it more convoluted by assuming the things that happened were strictly to plan rather than a rough sequence of events.

Harlock
Jan 15, 2006

Tap "A" to drink!!!

Going to enjoy this minefield of people Jimmy the Greek-ing it.

Mazzagatti2Hotty
Jan 23, 2012

JON JONES APOLOGIST #3

DeafNote posted:

Do you have rain on everyone's parade when they have the audacity to say they like the film?

I mean, this is CineD.

McCloud
Oct 27, 2005

FilthyImp posted:

It's literally Use Klaue to discredit T'chala and ingratiate himself with Wakandans

I think people are making it more convoluted by assuming the things that happened were strictly to plan rather than a rough sequence of events.

Well, yes, the point of his plan is obvious. The problem is that that plan you described hinges on things unfolding the way they did. Again, at a bare minimum, he needed BP to fail to capture Klaus, and then take Klaus in himself, dead or alive. And from that, he needed events to unfold in a very specific way, i.e have Klause apprehended and put in a CIA safehouse where he could break him out from under BP's nose.
So either he planned for a lot of that to happen, or he just got lucky. The film heavily hints to the former, and the latter is just lazy writing



Arist posted:

Again, I don't know what the hell your problem is but loving let it go, dude.

That is literally how you respond to other people. Maybe you should take an introspective look at the quality of your own posting if it offends you so much.

stev
Jan 22, 2013

Please be excited.



McCloud posted:

Well, yes, the point of his plan is obvious. The problem is that that plan you described hinges on things unfolding the way they did. Again, at a bare minimum, he needed BP to fail to capture Klaus, and then take Klaus in himself, dead or alive. And from that, he needed events to unfold in a very specific way, i.e have Klause apprehended and put in a CIA safehouse where he could break him out from under BP's nose.
So either he planned for a lot of that to happen, or he just got lucky. The film heavily hints to the former, and the latter is just lazy writing


Not really? The only things that he needs to make sure of is that T'Challa fails to bring Klaue home (which he could've done in any number of ways, and in no way requires the CIA's involvement) and that he's able to kill him himself.

Spacebump
Dec 24, 2003

Dallas Mavericks: Generations
This movie was a lot of fun. I'm glad it didn't really have MCU ties all over the film. The waterfall fight scene near the start owned. Shuri is a great character and stole every scene she was in. I like that the villain was given a chance to live. It's nice seeing Marvel movies become more and more different.

Roth
Jul 9, 2016

Bulkiest Toaster posted:

I think some of you are missing some of the more symbolic themes of the film that show the black man's subconscious struggles I think it is interesting that the villain of the film is essentially an American black who talks in an American style, lived in Oakland, has a hip hop aesthetic, was a CIA creation, and has an absentee father and was abandoned by his only other father figure (the king). How many black people in America does this represent in some fashion? Last time I checked the black community had like a 70% out of wedlock birth rate. Contrast this with T'challa who has a present father figure and lives in a well rounded culture without BET or the CIA selling crack. He embraces science and technology and is much more well rounded individual. Wakanda itself basically represents the heart and soul of the black man and the events of the film are a power struggle over who will control the black man. Either an authentic embrace of civilization and science represented by the T'challa and his family, or an anti-science imperialism based on hip hop ghetto black values and the knockout game. Which in turn are pretty much constructs of slavery imperialism and the CIA.

Did you get your entire idea of black people from The Boondocks?

Arist
Feb 13, 2012

who, me?


McCloud posted:

That is literally how you respond to other people. Maybe you should take an introspective look at the quality of your own posting if it offends you so much.

I'm telling you to make an actual argument to me and you're plainly refusing, dude! This is on you!

Like I just told you to quit it with the "no you" poo poo and you can't!

Kurzon
May 10, 2013

by Hand Knit

FilthyImp posted:

It's literally Use Klaue to discredit T'chala and ingratiate himself with Wakandans

I think people are making it more convoluted by assuming the things that happened were strictly to plan rather than a rough sequence of events.
I too struggle to figure out why Killmonger teamed up with Klaw. My understanding is that Killmonger wanted Klaw to sneak him into Wakanda. Klaw refused for some reason I can't remember, so Killmonger went with plan B: kill Klaw and deliver his corpse to the Wakandans to get the king's attention.

DeafNote
Jun 4, 2014

Only Happy When It Rains
One of Killmonger's comments made it sound like he didnt expect Klaue to sell his stuff to the CIA though

I do remember that Klaue refused to go back because the last time he barely escaped Wakanda alive (hence the scars)

DeafNote fucked around with this message at 19:41 on Feb 18, 2018

Z. Autobahn
Jul 20, 2004

colonel tigh more like colonel high
Also the point of the “WHAT ARE THOSE” line isn’t to make a reference for a gags’s sake, it’s to establish that Shuri is the kind of dork who makes Vine references in her super-lab. Same with M’baku’s vegeterian joke. That’s actually one of the things I liked most about it compared to the MCU’s typical quip-a-minute style, that the jokes were all humanizing elements grounded in the characters personalities and not just “oh no put a joke here because sincerity is uncomfortable”

im on the net me boys
Feb 19, 2017

Hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhjjhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhjhhhhhhjhhhhhhhhhjjjhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh cannabis

Bulkiest Toaster posted:

I think some of you are missing some of the more symbolic themes of the film that show the black man's subconscious struggles I think it is interesting that the villain of the film is essentially an American black who talks in an American style, lived in Oakland, has a hip hop aesthetic, was a CIA creation, and has an absentee father and was abandoned by his only other father figure (the king). How many black people in America does this represent in some fashion? Last time I checked the black community had like a 70% out of wedlock birth rate. Contrast this with T'challa who has a present father figure and lives in a well rounded culture without BET or the CIA selling crack. He embraces science and technology and is much more well rounded individual. Wakanda itself basically represents the heart and soul of the black man and the events of the film are a power struggle over who will control the black man. Either an authentic embrace of civilization and science represented by the T'challa and his family, or an anti-science imperialism based on hip hop ghetto black values and the knockout game. Which in turn are pretty much constructs of slavery imperialism and the CIA.
You are a racist dipshit
:thermidor:

Timby
Dec 23, 2006

Your mother!

PostNouveau posted:

Knockout game? wtf are you talking about?

Oh, do you not remember this? I believe the roots go back much longer, but I remember back in 2013-ish, immediately post-election some ultra right-wing news sites began spreading panic--especially on Facebook--over the "knockout game," saying that black youths were competing against each other nationwide to see who could score the best "knockout" on a mugging victim (predictably, these reports failed to include the whole "mugging" part, instead focusing on the actual "knockout" part).

It was pure non-subtle racism which led to a predictable round of "our cities are under siege," Congresscritters being their typical dumbass selves (I remember one guy in Wisconsin saying that in order to "prevent the spread" of the so-called game, he would introduce a bill that would charge people as terrorists, and then he basically went away when the rest of the WI Republicans told him to sit down and shut up), "black panic," etc. But it was pure bullshit, like the whole scam that the right ran with a while back about saying that drivers shouldn't ever flash their headlights, as it was a signal to gang members for a coordinated assault.

Bulkiest Toaster is just dogwhistling.

Kurzon
May 10, 2013

by Hand Knit

Dexo posted:

Lmao, you are so smart. Able to figure out the plots of super hero movies.
I didn't mean for that to come off like a brag. Rather, I wanted to express what aspects of this film disappointed me. Previous MCU movies gave us lots of delightful twists: Iron Man 3, Thor: Ragnarok, Guardians of the Galaxy 2, etc all had unpredictable plots. Whereas Doctor Strange had a very predictable, formulaic one. I feel Black Panther is on par with Doctor Strange: an old formula done well.

sponges
Sep 15, 2011

I thought the knockout game was a basketball game. We played it in grade school.

Timby
Dec 23, 2006

Your mother!

sponges posted:

I thought the knockout game was a basketball game. We played it in grade school.

MariusLecter
Sep 5, 2009

NI MUERTE NI MIEDO
https://twitter.com/Freeyourmindkid/status/965313244981288960

schweens
Jan 14, 2011

kakarot ain't got shit on me

sponges posted:

I thought the knockout game was a basketball game. We played it in grade school.

Yeah Knockout is the game where everyone lines up and shoots free throws or threes. If you miss you gotta make it before the person behind you does. It rules because anyone can win.

But as Timby said there's also the fake knockout game spread by racists on social media. That post about hip hop, BET, and the knockout game is a bad troll

Bulkiest Toaster
Jan 22, 2013

by R. Guyovich
People seem to be critical of my analysis. I just symbolically interpret the text. There is a lot of subconscious inner struggle of blackness in the film. And yes this film does build on racist stereotype to get at a deeper meaning. I believe the film does posit that hip hop culture is a construct of western imperailism and the CIA.

Killmonger is portrayed as a villain in a way that is right out of those very republican nightmares of the knockout game.

I might be wrong but this symbolic interpretation is built on critical theory. I don’t endorse this “racism”. Back to the future is about incest but I don’t believe this means you have to support incest to enjoy back to the future.

AndyElusive
Jan 7, 2007

Bulkiest Toaster posted:

Killmonger is portrayed as a villain in a way that is right out of those very republican nightmares of the knockout game.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zjP39MS_GYk

FilthyImp
Sep 30, 2002

Anime Deviant
Your analysis has a good kernel of idea. There is an opposition of blackness present in the film, and largely American Urbanism comes off poorly because it isn't the result of a magical technoutopia.

When you drop the poo poo about hip hop ghetto culture, you lose the thread because Erik's mannerisms reflect rhat but his personal accomplishments paint the picture of someone that could have been successful were it not for his revenge obsession. It's his militancy, and reliance on western ideas of cultural conquest that are the problem.

His die free vs live as a slave bit is oblivious to the massive negative results his revolution would cause.


Anyway, random thought. With the revelation that Wakandian spies are embedded all over the place does that cast the aide workers in the attack in Civil War in a different light??

FilthyImp fucked around with this message at 22:42 on Feb 18, 2018

Snowman_McK
Jan 31, 2010

Steve2911 posted:

They should never leave their bubble city.

This but unironically.

The movie is hurt by the dual revelation that they have spies in every nation, and that they turn away refugees (or are at least as uncomfortable with them as the UK and US are) because it means that they've noticed all the horrifying poo poo in the world, known about it in great detail, yet done nothing, not even help those who escape.

If you had them be genuinely isolationist, knowing nothing of the outside world (except for maybe the king or the spymaster or something) it would raise fewer uncomfortable questions.

I think the real problem is that trying to extrapolate how Wakanda would behave is really hard, since it has absolutely no historical precedent or parrallel. I mean, it's had a massive technological advantage for thousands of years, yet hasn't exploited it. It has a warrior king and a powerful army, but never acts outside its own borders. I mean, there aren't a whole lot of cultures who've been in that situation and done what they've done, so it has to be made up.

Mazzagatti2Hotty posted:

I mean, this is CineD.

Well, it's going to be balanced out by positive hyperbole as well, just like every MCU discussion.

FilthyImp posted:

His die free vs live as a slave bit is oblivious to the massive negative results his revolution would cause.

The Wakandan free status quo has...ahem, quite a few negative results.

Also, is it not a little uncomfortable to see a film where a young black American, the second he gets power, becomes just as bad if not worse than his oppressors? Especially in a film where his oppressors go uncriticised?

stev
Jan 22, 2013

Please be excited.



Snowman_McK posted:

This but unironically.

The movie is hurt by the dual revelation that they have spies in every nation, and that they turn away refugees (or are at least as uncomfortable with them as the UK and US are) because it means that they've noticed all the horrifying poo poo in the world, known about it in great detail, yet done nothing, not even help those who escape.

If you had them be genuinely isolationist, knowing nothing of the outside world (except for maybe the king or the spymaster or something) it would raise fewer uncomfortable questions.

Yes this is the point of the movie.

Snowman_McK
Jan 31, 2010

Steve2911 posted:

Yes this is the point of the movie.

Then it is poorly resolved and acted upon.

"Hey, there's staggering inequality and systemic violence"

"You're right, here is an outreach centre. Let's do things in accordance with the laws and values of the people responsible for that staggering inequality and systemic violence."

It is, like everything else in the MCU, completely and deliberately toothless.

Roth
Jul 9, 2016

Wakanda's isolationism is shown to be a bad thing and T'Challa rejects it after calling out all the past kings at once.

That scene owned. He was so rightfully furious in a really gratifying way.

Snowman_McK
Jan 31, 2010

Roth posted:

Wakanda's isolationism is shown to be a bad thing and T'Challa rejects it after calling out all the past kings at once.

That scene owned. He was so rightfully furious in a really gratifying way.

If that had any payoff in the film, it would be a great scene.

It's a perfectly fine film, but pretending this makes any statement or point is giving it way too much credit.

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stev
Jan 22, 2013

Please be excited.



Snowman_McK posted:

Then it is poorly resolved and acted upon.

"Hey, there's staggering inequality and systemic violence"

"You're right, here is an outreach centre. Let's do things in accordance with the laws and values of the people responsible for that staggering inequality and systemic violence."

It is, like everything else in the MCU, completely and deliberately toothless.

I mean, did you expect the film to flash forward a decade and show how Wakanda's impacted the rest of the world?

What exactly did you want T'Challa to do at the end?

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