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One note about slavery in the U.S.quote:Amendment XIII You see that section that says "except as a punishment of a crime where the party is convicted" ? You know the element of racism that exists in the police force that was being protested a while back and Colin Kaep was on about and still permeates through American culture...and that whole for profit prison system thing and that prisoners can be an unpaid labor force? Slavery does sort of exist, it's just something else that's not blatantly apparent. All you got to do is to send them to jail. Unless I missed the boat and a later amendment nullifies that section too.
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Feb 20, 2018 04:21
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Rand Brittain posted:So, who's your one pick for a potential Best Supporting Actress nomination in this movie? lmao
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Feb 20, 2018 04:21
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Gatts posted:Unless I missed the boat and a later amendment nullifies that section too. It most definitely does not.
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Feb 20, 2018 04:24
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BrianWilly posted:I think that calling Nakia's worldview -- that of earnest international outreach, philanthropy, and activism through non-violent means -- some sort of "liberal order status quo" is ignoring the fact that...this is not our current status quo. We are not actually doing this! Can we look at Trump's America, or the UK, or any other dominant world power and say that they are building bridges instead of barriers, that they are providing the right resources that refugees and disaster victims require, that they are in fact enacting the sort of diligent foreign aid that dominant world powers should by all rights be capable of? That we are interacting with one another or even ourselves with anything other than veiled violence and sometimes direct violence? You think our current status quo reflects Nakia's goals? It doesn't. It reflects the "gently caress you, got mine" Wakanda of old. Sometimes it even reflects Killmonger's methods (because, as was pointed out, Killmonger literally learned it from us). Philanthropy is hardly an absolute good: the practice shapes public policy. It's a democratic imperative for there to be a struggle between recipients and their benefactors. sean10mm posted:But seriously, reading the CD Marxist "vanguard" try to out-edgelord each other with how much blood they want to see flow in their imaginary revolution is genuinely comical. Do you really think you don't come across as privileged little shits who are about as convincingly proletarian as Paul Ryan at a county fair? Violence is already happening, we just accept it as necessary.
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Feb 20, 2018 04:24
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For your consideration: I think South Korea was a stand-in for China in this film. The casino's design was very distinctly Chinese looking and not Korean. China has a long history of imperialism, which fits in thematically with the film. There was no way China would let the film into theaters if they got a whiff that the film was criticizing Chinese foreign policy, so instead of any visual thematic relevance, the most we got was a single line saying that Wakandan spies in New York, Hong Kong, and London were all in on the new Wakandan imperialism plan (ignoring that they are also the locations of the Wizard Headquarters in Doctor Strange, they are located in 3 of the most imperialistic superpowers in modern times)
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Feb 20, 2018 04:24
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Plus don't people of color movies outside of Will Smith not do well in China?
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Feb 20, 2018 04:28
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I read the Korea bit was originally gonna be Japan but Korea Film would give them a lot of money through tax credits, while Tokyo went "if you want to film here, it's gonna cost you this much." Same reason there's a big Georgia peach at the end of the credits. Georgia has some the highest tax credits for film in the US, so a ton of production goes there.
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Feb 20, 2018 04:42
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Gatts posted:One note about slavery in the U.S. Yup pretty much. There's a whole documentary dedicated to this specific amendment on netflix iirc. Its loving bullshit and way too many people have gotten hosed over this over the years.
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Feb 20, 2018 04:50
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When Shuri is telling T'Challa about his new automatic shoes, she references "that American movie Baba always used to watch" - which movie is this with automatic shoes? Was King T'Chaka's favorite Sunday Afternoon Movie a VHS of Back to the Future Part II??? e: I guess T'Chaka would find the West's perception of a hyper-advanced 2015 to be pretty quaint tin can made man fucked around with this message at 05:05 on Feb 20, 2018 |
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Feb 20, 2018 04:59
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tin can made man posted:When Shuri is telling T'Challa about his new automatic shoes, she references "that American movie Baba always used to watch" - which movie is this with automatic shoes? Was King T'Chaka's favorite Sunday Afternoon Movie a VHS of Back to the Future Part II??? Super Mario Bros.
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Feb 20, 2018 05:05
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Atlas Hugged posted:I did think it would have been neat if the reveal with the mountain tribe was that they had a whole secret garden of the magic plant that they could have used at any point to overthrow the kings but had chosen not to as they weren't interested in ruling or forcing their lifestyle on the other tribes. I guess now there just won't be any more Black Panthers. Dude. I totally expected this to happen and was disappointed when it didn't. 
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Feb 20, 2018 05:11
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tin can made man posted:When Shuri is telling T'Challa about his new automatic shoes, she references "that American movie Baba always used to watch" - which movie is this with automatic shoes? Was King T'Chaka's favorite Sunday Afternoon Movie a VHS of Back to the Future Part II??? Yes, it’s BTTF ii. Just saw this with the kids, loved it. My 15 year old daughter had to tell me that the “what are those!?” Line was a vine. She thought that was an incredible thing to have in the movie, and she’s a 15 year old girl, so I guess the joke isn’t stale. I found it funny despite having no idea of its source. Great movie.
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Feb 20, 2018 07:24
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eyebeem posted:Yes, it’s BTTF ii. Just saw this with the kids, loved it. My 15 year old daughter had to tell me that the “what are those!?” Line was a vine. She thought that was an incredible thing to have in the movie, and she’s a 15 year old girl, so I guess the joke isn’t stale. I found it funny despite having no idea of its source. You mean your kids still have to lace up their shoes themselves? With their fingers? I feel so bad for them, Gramps! It's 2018! Get with the times! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kyWYx1pQKhk Edit: Yeah, just wanted an excuse to post the video.
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Feb 20, 2018 08:49
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Arist posted:What I was trying to get across there is 1. that I don't think comedy necessarily undercuts drama (and Thor: Ragnarok is honestly pretty good about this), and the one notable example where it does in that movie, the destruction of Asgard, fails less for that reason and more because the "punchline" is redundant, as the moment itself is successfully framed as both horrifying and comedic, so Korg's line immediately following actually kills the joke and the drama. It's just a bit too much. I'd say most of the third Act of Thor: Ragnarok uses humour to undercut drama and suspense. Loki betrays Thor? Played as a running gag, also with jokes immediately beforehand. The team is making their escape? Grandmaster party time fireworks and jokes. Thor confronts Hela for the first time after she's murdered her way through Asgard? Thor cracks a joke. Hela cuts out Thor's eye, marking the low point of the film for the heroes? Hela cracks a joke. Odin reaches out from beyond the grave to encourage Thor. Odin cracks a joke. After establishing he won't be able to turn back, Bruce Banner sacrifices himself to summon the Hulk. Physical injury gag. The civilians are saved from certain doom! Loki is grandstanding in a throwback to the opening play. Thor, Loki and Valkyrie face Hela on the bridge. Loki makes a joke. Thor decides to sacrifice Asgard. Hulk inadvertently makes a joke. The Asgardians watch on as they leave their home, and then it's destroyed. The director makes a joke. Thor: Ragnarok is more a comedy than an action film, so I don't begrudge it for doing that, but it totally uses humour to undercut almost every important scene that would otherwise be played straight for emotional impact.
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Feb 20, 2018 09:40
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That's really only true if you think the mere existence of jokes somehow undercuts drama, which I don't believe at all. Some of those are legitimately great moments in and of themselves. And yeah, some of them defuse the tension, sure, but only because that's the goal of the film in that moment--it's an absurd loving movie, and part of the reason it's so good is that it knows how to mine a moment for both drama and humor simultaneously instead of being boringly self-serious like the other Thor movies. Like puny Banner slamming into the Bifrost, which is actually genius because it relies on the anticipation of the cliche to fill in the rest of the moment before it happens, the expert subversion of him just bouncing off, and then the moment finishes anyway when Hulk appears to stop the wolf. The audience's understanding of the dramatic stakes of the moment hasn't changed, but the filmmakers manage to legitimately shock them with one of the funniest moments of the entire movie to no dramatic cost unless you're really mad for some reason the film made you Laugh During A Part You Wanted To Be Sad. Showing Banner jump from the ship and land as the Hulk would be fine, I guess. Somewhat cool, but really not much more than that. What they do instead is trust the audience to see that coming and pull the rug out brilliantly. Also a bunch of the sequences you list have little to no inherent dramatic weight anyway, so I don't even understand what's being "lost" by cracking jokes. A movie's tone can fluctuate from moment to moment to guide the viewer along. That's not a bad thing unless it's done really hamhandedly.
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Feb 20, 2018 10:06
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I was wondering how CD felt about the lengths the design of this film went to - obviously, the costumes and architecture totally own (lip disc guy in particular was my favorite) but I really felt kind of uncomfortable concerning some of the design choices - I feel like they were prioritising African stuff over practicality. I don't mean this in a 'tactical realism' way, but more that the design was kind of problematic and pretty backwards. For example, T'Challa's ship being shaped like a ceremonial mask is odd - that to me felt really unreal, like having futuristic Swiss people making a spaceship modelled after a cuckoo clock. They just wouldn't. They'd just build an ordinary spaceship. The Avengers' space car isn't shaped like a 50's hotrod. Weird choice. Another weird part was seeing the streets of Wakanda. They were kinda upjumped marketplaces, but considering that Wakanda is a utopia without compare, it's strange to see basket merchants on the main street of a 'modern' city. Is the implication that, given infinite resource, African streets would still be dusty Medinas? Lastly, the weaponised rhinoceros. They have cars. They have flying cars. This is a weird choice. Just because they're an african country doesn't mean they would still (crulely) use animals in combat. I know police horses are real, still, but they'd surely be ditched for hoverbikes. Liked the movie a lot, great everything else, but I feel like these little things left me scratching my head. I guess the above is ultimately forgivable in a pro-monarchy, anti-revolutionary movie where the CIA is kind of good, but I wanted to see what others though.
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Feb 20, 2018 10:25
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about TR some of of jokes I wouldnt even call 'undercuts'. they didnt stop the flow of the movie like they were pausing for laughter the Korg example definitely is tho
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Feb 20, 2018 10:32
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Really well done movie. But I had a hard time loving it outside of "moments" here and there. Marvel has gotten really good at efficient screenwriting, where each scene contains the bare minimum of necessary elements before moving onto the next scene. But there was just so much going on. It feels like 5 (better) movies could have been made out of the same series of events if all the scenes, characters, and concepts had been given time to breathe. Maybe it's just because I spent the whole weekend watching very slow-paced 60s spy movies but this movie was just breathless in a way I didn't love. I can only imagine that Infinity War will have this issue tenfold. feedmyleg fucked around with this message at 12:54 on Feb 20, 2018 |
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Feb 20, 2018 12:29
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Arist posted:That's really only true if you think the mere existence of jokes somehow undercuts drama, which I don't believe at all. Some of those are legitimately great moments in and of themselves. And yeah, some of them defuse the tension, sure, but only because that's the goal of the film in that moment--it's an absurd loving movie, and part of the reason it's so good is that it knows how to mine a moment for both drama and humor simultaneously instead of being boringly self-serious like the other Thor movies. I think these two paragraphs indicate the point. I didn't just pick out random plot points, but pretty much every significant plot progression moment of the third act. The fact that they don't seem to have any dramatic weight indicates just much the humour has undercut the emotional significance of the climax and resolution of the central conflict. I mean, Hela has murdered her way through Asgard, including the Warriors Three, and is hunting down its last remaining citizens. Thor knows this, and should be super pissed about this, to impart its significance to the audience. Instead he's making wise-cracks to Hela when he confronts her again. They aren't big jokes, but his lack of reverence for the situation imparts to the audience that they don't really need to care either. The Banner bridge bounce is another. It's an amusing moment, but the movie has established the Banner doesn't think he'll come back from another transformation into the Hulk. This is, on paper, a hero sacrifice moment where Bruce Banner dies, or at he least believes he will. The point wasn't that it could have been played as the Hulk making a hero landing on the bridge, but that the film could have acknowledged the seriousness and nobility of what Banner was doing, and impart Banner's understanding an acceptance of the consequences to the audience. But because the film chooses to make a joke instead, the audience is told not to believe they are seeing the end of Bruce Banner, despite the film spending time to set this up. This is the climax of the film, and the lack of suspense, tension or emotional gravity is the result of the constant humour. Again, I'm not saying this a bad thing. You can make direct parallels to Thor 2, where you get similar scenes the loss of a parental figure, Loki's betrayal, Thor being maimed, Loki's death, etc, and it's all played straight (though barring the first example, they are all undercut in turn by being ruses). Because the movie takes the plot points seriously, the audience does as well, allowing for one of the few good scenes in the movie; Loki trying to hide how distraught is is over his mother's death from Thor through the illusion in his cell, the ability to shine. But because nobody wants to watch Norse daytime TV melodrama, Thor Ragnarok keeps everything light and humorous, even when Thor is being disfigured, Asguard's population is being decimated, no-one can stop Hela, and the survivors are turned into refugees. I infinitely enjoyed Thor 3 more over Thor 1 and 2 (and pretty much all the other Marvel films as well), but I totally disagree that they used humour to undercut only one serious moment. The movie was a comedy, and they used humour from start to finish to suppress the seriousness of the situation. The tone wasn't fluctuating from moment to moment, because they were avoiding the tonal dissonance of Thor 2, and the movie was much stronger for it in my opinion.
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Feb 20, 2018 14:48
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can you white people talk about thor in a different thread?
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Feb 20, 2018 14:55
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Ubik_Lives posted:I think these two paragraphs indicate the point. I didn't just pick out random plot points, but pretty much every significant plot progression moment of the third act. The fact that they don't seem to have any dramatic weight indicates just much the humour has undercut the emotional significance of the climax and resolution of the central conflict. Okay, two things: the film absolutely acknowledges the seriousness of Banner's sacrifice. The music swells and everything. Just because the character doesn't literally vocalize this doesn't mean it doesn't happen, because the audience already knows what will happen from his earlier lines and does not need to be reminded. The joke is totally separate from that. I don't see at all how the joke makes you think that's not the end of Banner because it totally is in regard to that film. It seems like Infinity War is probably gonna ignore that somehow just from the trailer but that's a whole other can of worms. Also: I said there is little inherent drama. As in, the jokes aren't the reason for it. If anything, they connect the audience more with the weird, slapdash, goofball plot than taking it seriously would. I'm saying there wasn't anything to undercut in the first place because it was never a serious situation.
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Feb 20, 2018 14:57
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temple posted:can you white people talk about thor in a different thread? Man agreed. I regret bringing it up. My point was "I personally think BP integrated humor better than some recent Marvel films". I didn't even specify Thor!
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Feb 20, 2018 15:06
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well why not posted:I was wondering how CD felt about the lengths the design of this film went to - obviously, the costumes and architecture totally own (lip disc guy in particular was my favorite) but I really felt kind of uncomfortable concerning some of the design choices - I feel like they were prioritising African stuff over practicality. I don't mean this in a 'tactical realism' way, but more that the design was kind of problematic and pretty backwards. Apply this to starwars.
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Feb 20, 2018 15:12
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temple posted:can you Fair enough, but let's not get all Doctor Strange in here.
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Feb 20, 2018 15:13
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well why not posted:I was wondering how CD felt about the lengths the design of this film went to - obviously, the costumes and architecture totally own (lip disc guy in particular was my favorite) but I really felt kind of uncomfortable concerning some of the design choices - I feel like they were prioritising African stuff over practicality. I don't mean this in a 'tactical realism' way, but more that the design was kind of problematic and pretty backwards. This is where (African) American(s) v. African(s) perspectives comes into play, which is complicated. For some African Americans (but not all because ‘African American’ is a wiiiide demographic net that rarely takes into account geography, ethnicity/nation of origin, immigration status, economics, etc.), Africa is constructed in fiction as a historical land of magical realism. White slavers stole lives, ancestry, and history, and the reclamation project for that historical identity can sometimes lead to problematic claims and unfortunate monolothic depictions of the continent. There are plenty of African critiques of how African Americans view the continent. There are also critiques that point out that this perception of Africa straddles a line between resisting white supremacy while also codifying blackness as intrinsically real, which also complicates a bunch of poo poo — it’s meant to be a positive, uplifting narrative for personal and communal identity but it has some troubling implications if you dig deeper into that idea. As a result, you get wildly different interpretations of what an Afrofuturist, non-colonized African country might look like. It’s not entirely surprising that a popular (mostly) American/English perspective is that of Wakanda, an amalgam of all kinds of African cultures and myths that don’t necessarily make any sense when jammed together. This isn’t a critique so much as a reality of perspective: you’d get different ideas from all over the continent because it’s a loving massive place with many, many different cultures. The same western approach that gives us the culture of Wakanda also gives us the politics of Wakanda. A postcolonialist imagination of Wakanda and this story would look wildly different. Disclaimer: these are broad strokes based on popular syntheses of major ideas and obviously do not represent everyone’s perspective. i am the bird fucked around with this message at 15:57 on Feb 20, 2018 |
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Feb 20, 2018 15:14
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i am the bird posted:This is where (African) American(s) v. African(s) perspectives comes into play, which is complicated. Lord of the rings is a fictional, mishmash of european culture.
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Feb 20, 2018 15:16
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temple posted:Lord of the rings is a fictional, mishmash of european culture. Right and as such has complicated depictions of European problems, including issues of war and racism [edit: including valid readings of parts of the books being white supremacist in nature because that’s a white English dude’s conception of a cool fantasy world]. I’m not saying the movie shouldn’t be made or that it’s bad for having these complications. It’s just one part of the explanation for why that mix exists. Edit: the movie also kind of gets at this with the debate between Erik (with one American perspective) and T’Challa but also the interdebate among Wakandans with T’Challa, Nakia, and W’kabi all representing different arguments (not to mention the impact of elders like T’Chaka and Zuri). Also, what I didn’t say and should’ve been in there is that white people also had their hands in the making of this movie. i am the bird fucked around with this message at 16:00 on Feb 20, 2018 |
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Feb 20, 2018 15:20
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well why not posted:I was wondering how CD felt about the lengths the design of this film went to - obviously, the costumes and architecture totally own (lip disc guy in particular was my favorite) but I really felt kind of uncomfortable concerning some of the design choices - I feel like they were prioritising African stuff over practicality. I don't mean this in a 'tactical realism' way, but more that the design was kind of problematic and pretty backwards. You can't think of any reason that a utopian country that has not had a war in a thousand years and only uses combat symbolically would only have impractical symbolism laden weapons? It seemed very extremely obvious they were choosing to engage in civilized combat and could have made shotguns and nuclear bombs and whatever if they had wanted But aren't like us savages that resort to primitive weapons.
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Feb 20, 2018 15:24
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i am the bird posted:Right and as such has complicated depictions of European problems, including issues of war and racism. I’m not saying the movie shouldn’t be made or that it’s bad for having these complications. It’s just one part of the explanation for why that mix exists. Edit: the movie also kind of gets at this with the debate between Erik (with one American perspective) and T’Challa but also the interdebate among Wakandans with T’Challa, Nakia, and W’kabi all representing different arguments (not to mention the impact of elders like T’Chaka and Zuri). I see your point. I don't understand why Wakanda is scrutinized when its not different than star wars or lotr. temple fucked around with this message at 15:37 on Feb 20, 2018 |
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Feb 20, 2018 15:29
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temple posted:I see your point. I don't understand why Wakanda is scrutinized when its not different than star wars or lotr. Oh, for sure. I find it a bit gross to scrutinize politically if we’re doing it to tear down a film that is both entertaining and also incredibly culturally important. But, I do think that, in the right circumstance, it’s a great text to discuss some of those issues. I would 100% use it in my classroom if I were still teaching at a university, and others have already taken that lead: https://www.aaihs.org/blackpanthersyllabus/ (which is super exciting because the other syllabi project have been great) i am the bird fucked around with this message at 15:38 on Feb 20, 2018 |
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Feb 20, 2018 15:34
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black people aren't allowed to enjoy themselves. black life has to be political and you can't run around in tights and kill bad guys with claws or medieval weapons. a rhino is like an african horse but you know, real black people ride the bus or subway and realness must be presented in entertainment at all times.
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Feb 20, 2018 15:41
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temple posted:black people aren't allowed to enjoy themselves. black life has to be political and you can't run around in tights and kill bad guys with claws or medieval weapons. a rhino is like an african horse but you know, real black people ride the bus or subway and realness must be presented in entertainment at all times. I both agree and disagree. Everything is political. Even so called "non-political" movies in and of itself is a choice in politics. However yeah it's dumb as poo poo that people can't suspend disbelief for world building stuff like in real life we don't have Customs that are outdated that people still do
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Feb 20, 2018 16:05
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temple posted:I see your point. I don't understand why Wakanda is scrutinized when its not different than star wars or lotr. Star Wars‘ setting isn’t scrutinized?
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Feb 20, 2018 16:06
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I mean, a gigantic issue in colonialism/postcolonialism is discussing the role of western portrayals of postcolonial spaces. Even Chimimanda Adichie just got in a load of trouble for dismissing postcolonial theory when its value is all about understanding relationships of power (particularly between a white supremacist west and the formerly colonized global south, but also between white supremacist colonial thinking being instilled in people of color in western spaces). Black folks educated in western, white supremacist places are not immune to making mistakes about depictions of Africa, and I think there is a legitimate discussion to be had about the how/why Wakanda exists as it does. Wakanda is a western invention and can be understood and critiqued as such. That said, I do agree with you that a lot of these questions are not coming from a place of good intent but are more ways in which we tear down black people in ways and scales that we’d never apply to white folks especially since white people also had influence on Black Panther’s creation in this case.
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Feb 20, 2018 16:14
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temple posted:I see your point. I don't understand why Wakanda is scrutinized when its not different than star wars or lotr. both of those IPs are very scrutinized
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Feb 20, 2018 16:14
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well why not posted:Another weird part was seeing the streets of Wakanda. They were kinda upjumped marketplaces, but considering that Wakanda is a utopia without compare, it's strange to see basket merchants on the main street of a 'modern' city. Is the implication that, given infinite resource, African streets would still be dusty Medinas? Also, honestly this is the weirdest criticism, like America is all walmarts but that isn't some ultimate modern ideal that the entire modern world shares. The streets of paris or hong kong or amsterdam all have huge mile long street markets as part of their core character in the heart of the downtown city. Like most are even big enough to have a tourist part and a "no, hey, locals, come over here, here is the real one, here is an open air stall that sells vegetables and bras". Modern western cities are extremely proud of their dumb traditional market street.
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Feb 20, 2018 16:16
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i am the bird posted:Even Chimimanda Adichie just got in a load of trouble for dismissing postcolonial theory when its value is all about understanding relationships of power (particularly between a white supremacist west and the formerly colonized global south, but also between white supremacist colonial thinking being instilled in people of color in western spaces). That was a really funny episode. Didn't she think postcolonial theory was "made up" or something?
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Feb 20, 2018 16:22
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sexpig by night posted:both of those IPs are very scrutinized nobody scrutinizes the fantasy in starwars. its acceptabled that luke rides a tauntaun. but a techno rhino is beyond the pale. Why do space ships look like they do in starwars? is starwars too high tech for swords? that kind of stuff would like missing the point and that's correct. its fantasy, you don't have to explain it.
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Feb 20, 2018 16:28
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temple posted:nobody scrutinizes the fantasy in starwars. its acceptabled that luke rides a tauntaun. but a techno rhino is beyond the pale. Why do space ships look like they do in starwars? is starwars too high tech for swords? that kind of stuff would like missing the point and that's correct. its fantasy, you don't have to explain it. You're going to take my word for it that every one of these things and a million others have been discussed in excruciating detail, many on these very forums.
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Feb 20, 2018 16:47
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The techno rhino was rad! Who is crapping on the techno rhino? What the gently caress people
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Feb 20, 2018 17:01
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