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euphronius posted:B36 I can't respond to a post with multiple nested quotes so I will concede you are correct. My strategy has worked!
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Feb 20, 2018 18:53
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Sometimes you can trade Gail Goodrich and Junior Bridgeman for Magic Johnson and Kareem Abdul Jabbar That's the better way to do it: everyone agrees. (I know the trade for Goodrich wasn't a straight up swap)
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Feb 20, 2018 18:56
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Redgrendel2001 posted:
And what has it got them? A deeply flawed PG, and a couple other draft picks that they're trying to or have already traded away.
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Feb 20, 2018 18:58
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The B_36 posted:Say what you will about Cuban (he's a good owner imo), but he's got a point. We've all mostly jumped on the Sixers bandwagon and deified Hinkie, but much like with how OKC built their Finals team a few years ago (ie lucky with draft picks), it's not a very repeatable process. I've always hated when fans look at their team and realize they won't reach the Finals this year so they think they should tank for draft picks. That's not to say you should sign a bunch of average vets every year just to field a respectable team, but if even 5 NBA teams did what the Sixers did, it would destroy the league pretty quickly. this is funny cause a pretty commonly held opinion here just a year ago is that the sixers were pretty unlucky with their picks. they ended up with a billion big men and a bunch of injured, flawed players. and now ben simmons. it seems entirely repeatable, infact your expected results are probably slightly better than what the sixers got?
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Feb 20, 2018 19:00
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Ghost Dog posted:this is funny cause a pretty commonly held opinion here just a year ago is that the sixers were pretty unlucky with their picks. they ended up with a billion big men and a bunch of injured, flawed players. and now ben simmons. it seems entirely repeatable, infact your expected results are probably slightly better than what the sixers got? They also picks still on the way. Well one more.
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Feb 20, 2018 19:02
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The B_36 posted:And what has it got them? A deeply flawed PG, and a couple other draft picks that they're trying to or have already traded away. So did they tank or not ??? because you just repeatedly claimed that they've "never tanked".
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Feb 20, 2018 19:02
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I remember some  article about the Mavs 5 or so years ago about how they reloaded instead of rebuilt because Cuban is a genius that zigs when everyone zags and therefore hits on market inefficiencies like Monta Ellis
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Feb 20, 2018 19:05
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WhyteRyce posted:I remember some Yeah. That's why I posted the Tweet; he was incredibly strident and vocal about how bad tanking is.
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Feb 20, 2018 19:08
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Redgrendel2001 posted:So did they tank or not ??? because you just repeatedly claimed that they've "never tanked". I only said it once actually. They won all their championships when they didn't tank, you brought up that they tanked in Scott's final year. If you want to say that they tanked for a year or two, then it seems reasonable for me to point out that since that time they've not only sucked but they also have little to show for it. How many teams have blatantly tanked and gone on to win a ring because of it? The Spurs 20+ years ago? Is that it? Where are we getting the idea that blatant tanking has the highest chance of success? What is that based on? The Spurs have had a few seasons since getting Duncan where people thought they should tear it down and tank for picks, but they didn't and won rings anyway. The Sixers aren't (yet) a success story for tanking.
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Feb 20, 2018 19:18
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I literally cannot imagine a more insufferable arguement
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Feb 20, 2018 19:19
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The B_36 posted:The Sixers still haven't done anything with The Process tho They are packing an arena with enthusiastic fans in what can best be described as a playoff atmosphere for every regular season game. They may not have won anything, but they are fun to watch and can compete with most teams in the NBA on any given night.
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Feb 20, 2018 19:19
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Paul Zuvella posted:I literally cannot imagine a more insufferable arguement You mean the one we've had about 647 times in the last 3 years 
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Feb 20, 2018 19:20
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Yeah, if Embiid gets hurt the Sixers will look a lot worse, but right now they gave away one of their top three picks because he flopped, and the recent #1 overall they traded up for isn't even playing because he forgot how to shoot, and yet they've still elevated into the playoffs, and have a pretty good salary cap situation going on (almost 40m under next year). The Process did a nice job rebuilding even without having to hit on every pick.
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Feb 20, 2018 19:21
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Paul Zuvella posted:I literally cannot imagine a more insufferable arguement Yes, I also hate talking about basketball here in the basketball thread.
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Feb 20, 2018 19:22
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stats.nba.com released boxout metrics
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Feb 20, 2018 19:23
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do the cavs count as tanking? i mean they didnt win a ring because of their tanking but they did win a ring after fixing the draft odds a bunch
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Feb 20, 2018 19:23
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euphronius posted:Sometimes you can trade Gail Goodrich and Junior Bridgeman for Magic Johnson and Kareem Abdul Jabbar Trade your chaff for Jimmy Harden, then a few years later trade a beloved player and a godlike Lou Williams for CP3 with those two moves sandwiching improbably discovering an elite swiss center in the latter part of the first round
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Feb 20, 2018 19:24
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The things that helped make the Lakers a perennial contender aren't applicable to most teams.
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Feb 20, 2018 19:24
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Ghost Dog posted:do the cavs count as tanking? i mean they didnt win a ring because of their tanking but they did win a ring after fixing the draft odds a bunch
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Feb 20, 2018 19:25
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strategically place your team near the hometown of the future GOAT seems the best way to win. or make your star become best friends with the goat
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Feb 20, 2018 19:25
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The B_36 posted:I only said it once actually. They won all their championships when they didn't tank, you brought up that they tanked in Scott's final year. If you want to say that they tanked for a year or two, then it seems reasonable for me to point out that since that time they've not only sucked but they also have little to show for it. The goal of the process is to get superstars through FA , trades and the Draft . That's because superstars are how you win championships. Saying they aren't a success because they haven't won a ring is goal post moving. Thus the process is already a success and still has more left to go through another pick and a max slot for a trade or FA Before process : no superstars After process : two with a chance for a couple more
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Feb 20, 2018 19:25
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Fast Luck posted:Yeah, if Embiid gets hurt the Sixers will look a lot worse, but right now they gave away one of their top three picks because he flopped, and the recent #1 overall they traded up for isn't even playing because he forgot how to shoot, and yet they've still elevated into the playoffs, and have a pretty good salary cap situation going on (almost 40m under next year). The Process did a nice job rebuilding even without having to hit on every pick. Exactly
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Feb 20, 2018 19:26
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Assuming Beverley stayed healthy and Lou played like he has been for the Clippers: are the Rockets better this year without making the CP3 trade?
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Feb 20, 2018 19:26
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Kibner posted:stats.nba.com released boxout metrics Okc number 1 hell yeah
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Feb 20, 2018 19:27
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The B_36 posted:Yes, I also hate talking about basketball here in the basketball thread. Oh weird I didnt know basketball was a pissing match to see who tanks more between the lakers and the 76ers. Learn something new everyday
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Feb 20, 2018 19:29
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weird it's almost like in the NBA all you need is one great player to be a playoff team. And almost everything you do should be in service of finding and developing said great player.
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Feb 20, 2018 19:29
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Paul Zuvella posted:Oh weird I didnt know basketball was a pissing match to see who tanks more between the lakers and the 76ers. Learn something new everyday All sports fandom eventually boils down to a pissing match of some kind or another
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Feb 20, 2018 19:30
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Yeah the whole Process == Tanking really bugs me when it’s definitely more like Process.indexOf(Tanking) > -1 is the more true evaluation. Accumulating top picks was a big part, yes. But it was also finding late talent and developing them into nba level contributors (Covington, TJ McConnell). It thirdly was shedding contracts and keeping 1-2 year deals for most of the roster so that when your draft hit, you would be in position cap wise to potentially sign another star. The Sixers did all that in spades. With one Bayless move they’ll have max money to add a piece to Embiid/Simmons (Fultz? Dario?)
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Feb 20, 2018 19:32
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euphronius posted:The goal of the process is to get superstars through FA Getting superstars thru FA, trades and the draft is how every NBA club has ever built a team, that isn't some revolutionary new idea that Sam Hinkie came up with. Your definition of The Process is so broad it includes literally every single transaction ever made in NBA history. And saying they don't have to actually win anything for The Process to be vindicated is pretty hardcore goal post moving. The Process certainly can work, I'm not denying that. But just because it can work doesn't mean it's automatically the best way of doing it. Previous history would suggest that there are other, more effective ways.
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Feb 20, 2018 19:33
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The B_36 posted:Previous history would suggest that there are other, more effective ways. I prefer looking upon Future History when building an argument
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Feb 20, 2018 19:39
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Ric Bucher might be a lurker. https://twitter.com/RicBucher/status/966018170757644288
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Feb 20, 2018 19:40
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lmao at the legendary "process" boiling down to "Tank but also run your team well"
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Feb 20, 2018 19:41
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aBagorn posted:Accumulating top picks was a big part, yes. But it was also finding late talent and developing them into nba level contributors (Covington, TJ McConnell). This was my initial complaint about what the Sixers were doing, but those late finds are good and better than what most bad teams (like the Kings) have gotten with their lottery picks so I've come around.
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Feb 20, 2018 19:42
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Paul Zuvella posted:lmao at the legendary "process" boiling down to "Tank but also run your team well" Surprisingly hard for NBA teams and probably not allowed anymore due to Silver making an example of Hinkie . If you want to tank these days it seems you have to sign some huge garbage deals for veterans in order to stave off a Colangelo like takeover.
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Feb 20, 2018 19:44
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Intentionally sucking for years so you can one day vie for the 8 seed in the east doesn't seem like the greatest thing for fans to watch e: Yes I get the irony of an Astros fan saying this Intruder fucked around with this message at 19:46 on Feb 20, 2018 |
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Feb 20, 2018 19:44
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Paul Zuvella posted:lmao at the legendary "process" boiling down to "Tank but also run your team well" It's literally just get as many assets as possible to maximize the chance to get a superstar
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Feb 20, 2018 19:44
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euphronius posted:The goal of the process is to get superstars through FA The whole premise was that being a perennial 8-5 seed was one of the worst places to be and that unless you are a title contender you should try to be literally the worst team in the league. They're obviously promising but they're also a 7 seed so until they actually take that next step to being a contender declaring victory already seems like the actual goal post shifting here?
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Feb 20, 2018 19:45
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They are way closer to winning a title than in 2012 when they made the semis. Way way way closer. Even closer than 2013 when the owners started the process before Hinkie even arrived.
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Feb 20, 2018 19:47
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Paul Zuvella posted:lmao at the legendary "process" boiling down to "Tank but also run your team well" And as Euphronius pointed out, it's even more hosed up that "running your team well" basically means don't invest large sums of money in older players who'll spend the back half of their contract on a downhill slide. The other owners and Silver killed him, but the big name agents were equally culpable.
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Feb 20, 2018 19:49
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Tanking is a tragedy of the commons type thing. I get why teams do it, I get why it's necessary, I get the appeal, I get the strategy, I want the Kings to do it, all of that. But if half the teams in the league were all blatantly The Processing it then it wouldn't work.
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Feb 20, 2018 19:51
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