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Rand Brittain posted:
That exposition doesn't really need to come from Ross though. The Wakandan intelligence network is probably advanced enough to have a profile available on Killmonger. edit: doesn't Killmonger reiterate the CIA spiel himself at some point or am I misremmbering?
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Feb 20, 2018 20:30
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Killmonger's CIA background ends up being pretty irrelevant though- he didn't have to do any sort of cloak and dagger poo poo or set up a rebellion to overthrow T'Challa- all he had to do was show up, prove his ancestry, and throw him off a cliff. His CIA background was presumably important in his being able to lay the groundwork for the worldwide uprising/Wakandan empire, but that plan was raised and aborted so quickly that it barely mattered, and we saw basically none of it.
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Feb 20, 2018 20:35
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Didn’t they just adapt the comics? Was Ross being in the CIA a problem then? Or just this movie? I’m asking because saying this has “the worst politics of all time” is a pretty insane claim to make, and I’m curious if this carries over to the source
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Feb 20, 2018 20:37
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the thing about the movie's handling of the CIA is, while it addresses the bad things the CIA has done, it largely plays them as a loving joke. Black Panther treats American imperialism as something that's not Good, but also something that's not really worth taking seriously that you can just kind of laugh off while dealing with what the movie considers to be the actual problem, "black people who are too violent and angry." i was being hyperbolic when i said it's the worst of all time, but holy gently caress that message is up there on the worst-ever list. e: I've only read the runs by Priest, Hudlin and Coates. Coates is fine. Hudlin is staggeringly awful, but from different angles (what he did to Storm is loving abominable). Priest is... a good read from an apolitical perspective, but I haven't really gone back to it since I started really paying attention to this sort of thing, so I can't comment there. WeedlordGoku69 fucked around with this message at 20:41 on Feb 20, 2018 |
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Feb 20, 2018 20:39
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I guess it kind of makes sense if we're looking at Wakanda as an aspirational, fantasy Africa. It's a universe where the rest of the world's governments continue to exist only so long as Wakanda is gracious enough to allow them to exist. They are mighty enough to render the CIA an impotent, minor nuisance. It's an empowerment fantasy.
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Feb 20, 2018 20:56
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CelticPredator posted:Didn’t they just adapt the comics? Was Ross being in the CIA a problem then? Or just this movie? Ross was assigned to be a liaison to watch over Panther while he was operating in the US. He’s an okay dude and sort of the audience’s POV to Panther’s world. People are making a bigger deal out of things.   
Gatts fucked around with this message at 21:01 on Feb 20, 2018 |
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Feb 20, 2018 20:57
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General Dog posted:I guess it kind of makes sense if we're looking at Wakanda as an aspirational, fantasy Africa. It's a universe where the rest of the world's governments continue to exist only so long as Wakanda is gracious enough to allow them to exist. They are mighty enough to render the CIA an impotent, minor nuisance. It's an empowerment fantasy. but then this clashes hard with the movie's ultimate message that Wakanda needs to use its resources for the betterment of black people's lives worldwide. what, are they gonna do that with the loving CIA's help? because that idea is at best laughable.
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Feb 20, 2018 20:59
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like, if the movie's trying to say that black people should subvert the deep state from within and use its entrenched power to their own ends, i'm not really against that, but that really didn't seem to be the movie's message so much as "the deep state is already your friend."
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Feb 20, 2018 21:00
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I feel like you're massively overrating the importance of the CIA as presented in this movie. The CIA ain't poo poo to Wakanda. Wakanda cares about the CIA insofar as it stays the gently caress out of their way. Ross is basically a pet.
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Feb 20, 2018 21:06
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sean10mm posted:I feel like you're massively overrating the importance of the CIA as presented in this movie. Martin freeman in Black Panther = Limo driver in Die Hard
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Feb 20, 2018 21:10
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I gotta say this has certainly been the most interesting debate thread over a comic book movie in a long while here, maybe ever.
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Feb 20, 2018 21:25
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LORD OF BOOTY posted:like, if the movie's trying to say that black people should subvert the deep state from within and use its entrenched power to their own ends, i'm not really against that, but that really didn't seem to be the movie's message so much as "the deep state is already your friend." I didn't think the message of the movie was that the deep state was already your friend. The deep state is already implied to be one of the things that twisted killmonger into a villain. He became a better killing machine by participating in the CIA's convert ops and likely hardened his views even more. Also the deep state is already your friend doesn't jive with how the movie turns out. Wakanda has to go and help minorities and the disenfranchised because the existing political systems aren't doing enough.
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Feb 20, 2018 21:42
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I know I've been a huge smartass here, but more seriously: I get that the CIA is going to be a huge lighting rod because of what it is IRL, but insofar as it's even in BP it's there to highlight how Wakanda is NOT subject to the whims of white imperialism. The CIA as a whole simply doesn't matter in this movie, and the lone CIA presence is a straight-up hapless sidekick to drive this home. The CIA are boogymen to the rest of the world, but not to Wakanda. It's like saying the US is worried about the intelligence service of... I dunno, Liechtenstein or something, it doesn't compute. Wakanda sees the CIA - who couldn't even figure out that they EXIST - as beneath them.
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Feb 20, 2018 21:57
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You’re underselling his presence in the movie, especially considering how pivotal he is to the story. In any event, I think it’s both Shuri and Okoye who express fear that he’s going to reveal all of Wakanda’s secrets to the American intelligence community. The safety of Wakanda is not built on its technological advancement; it’s based on being hidden. Sure, they could clearly hold their own in a fight but their lives become much more difficult once they (and the vibranium mines) are exposed to the world. But, beyond that, it really is more about the symbolism of the white CIA agent being a (twice) self-sacrificing hero whose last scene is risking his life to prevent violent rebellion in the name of imperialism. The Wakandan actions make sense in this construction; it’s just a weird thing to have written into the story.
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Feb 20, 2018 22:41
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LORD OF BOOTY posted:what the movie considers to be the actual problem, "black people who are too violent and angry." i was being hyperbolic when i said it's the worst of all time, but holy gently caress that message is up there on the worst-ever list. You would have a point if they didn't play Killmonger's arguments as completely legitimate. Which they did. T'Challa agrees with him. It's his methods that they criticise. He IS to violent and angry. You can rebel against injustice and oppression without straight up becoming a mass murdering rear end in a top hat. If he'd got those weapons out to the world how many innocent people would have died in the war he started?
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Feb 20, 2018 23:17
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Rand Brittain posted:
It wasn't an accident, he was a prexisting character from the comic that was added by the first black author to write for black panther to be an intentional mockery of the whiteboy that reads comic books and that is why he is named after ross from friends
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Feb 20, 2018 23:24
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Is Black Panther's Killmonger the Best Villain Since the Joker? – Wisecrack Quick Take Hot Take, coming thru!
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Feb 20, 2018 23:30
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Michael B Jordan has the best hair, mustache and awesome steroid shoulders, so possibly, yes he is.
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Feb 20, 2018 23:44
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:You can't think of any reason that a utopian country that has not had a war in a thousand years and only uses combat symbolically would only have impractical symbolism laden weapons? Sorry to quote so-far-back, but Wakanda has definitely been involved in wars in the last 1000 years. Their weapons are clearly as lethal as any other tech out there, Killmonger mentions that a 'spear' can take out a tank. That's fairly practical. Is the ending battle 'civilised'? Were Wakandans killing each other? It certainly looked like they were trying to.
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Feb 20, 2018 23:47
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:It wasn't an accident, he was a prexisting character from the comic that was added by the first black author to write for black panther to be an intentional mockery of the whiteboy that reads comic books and that is why he is named after ross from friends That’s not what he does in the movie though, so I’m not sure why it matters. He’s portrayed as smug and ignorant but also heroic and well intentioned. Either he’s meant to be emblematic of the CIA generally, and that’s a very generous view of the CIA, or he’s just a dude who happens to be a CIA agent and the movie has nothing to say about the CIA at all.
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Feb 21, 2018 01:10
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well why not posted:Sorry to quote so-far-back, but Wakanda has definitely been involved in wars in the last 1000 years. Their weapons are clearly as lethal as any other tech out there, Killmonger mentions that a 'spear' can take out a tank. That's fairly practical. People were clearly dying in the final battle but it seems really clear that it was friend vs friends in a war where everyone was mostly wacking eachother with the staff side of the spears of knocking each other over with knockback guns. It seems like either side could have easily at any time just murdered everyone instantly but everyone sort of agreed to only kill a little and mostly just bop each other around a bunch.
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Feb 21, 2018 01:21
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YOLOsubmarine posted:That’s not what he does in the movie though, so I’m not sure why it matters. He’s portrayed as smug and ignorant but also heroic and well intentioned. Either he’s meant to be emblematic of the CIA generally, and that’s a very generous view of the CIA, or he’s just a dude who happens to be a CIA agent and the movie has nothing to say about the CIA at all. It’s the second one
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Feb 21, 2018 01:26
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:It's just a natural outlet of Disney's worship of the Deep State and their movies all having a similar theme of "you did bad things to get the material wealth you had, but you feel bad about it, so it's ok!". The villain of Marvel movies is the villain because they don't feel bad about the bad stuff they've done to get their wealth; this is often why people say the villains are "mirrors" of the hero but they are just the hero without the courtesy to say "yeah that was a nasty thing I did...." natural outlet of disneys worship of the deep state is my band name
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Feb 21, 2018 01:33
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YOLOsubmarine posted:That’s not what he does in the movie though, so I’m not sure why it matters. He’s portrayed as smug and ignorant but also heroic and well intentioned. Either he’s meant to be emblematic of the CIA generally, and that’s a very generous view of the CIA, or he’s just a dude who happens to be a CIA agent and the movie has nothing to say about the CIA at all. I mean, this movie kinda half hearts trying to think of something to do with the guy but the absolute primary reason he's in this movie is because he's in the comic. It's the same reason the movie does "he's fighting klaw! no wait! now he's fighting killmonger!" and why they go hang out with man ape. Most movies like this end up being greatest hits lists of the main cast. It's like superman movies and jimmy olsen, sometimes they think of something for him to do and sometimes he's totally superfluous but he's in every movie because that is who is in superman movies.
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Feb 21, 2018 01:47
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This movie is The Phantom Menace.
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Feb 21, 2018 02:06
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Imagine if at the end of Episode I, Darth Maul apologizes to Qui-Gon Jinn while lying there cut in half. That's this movie.
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Feb 21, 2018 02:08
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CelticPredator posted:It’s the second one "hmm this is simply an aspect of his character, nothing more"
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Feb 21, 2018 02:08
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Yes. Because they are adapting the source material. So if it’s not a problem in the source but it’s a problem in the movie then 
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Feb 21, 2018 02:30
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CelticPredator posted:Yes. Because they are adapting the source material. So if it’s not a problem in the source but it’s a problem in the movie then movies are different from comics OP
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Feb 21, 2018 02:35
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Also, Ross was not a CIA agent in the comics! He's Department of State, NSA and Shield. This might just be splitting hairs as all those organisations have their own problems, but he wasn't CIA. That's a MCU change.
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Feb 21, 2018 02:39
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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:Imagine if at the end of Episode I, Darth Maul apologizes to Qui-Gon Jinn while lying there cut in half. That's this movie. That would have made TPM infinitely better.
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Feb 21, 2018 02:48
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CelticPredator posted:It’s the second one Your goal here is to normalize the presence of the CIA and push it as ultimately benign. To what end? What is your investment here? Like the people saying it’s an empowerment fantasy because Mr. CIA is a nerd. Bullshit. An empowerment fantasy would be a dead nerd. Give him a knife in the brain.
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Feb 21, 2018 02:55
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garycoleisgod posted:Also, Ross was not a CIA agent in the comics! Okay, this answered my question thank you. Then it’s fair criticism.
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Feb 21, 2018 02:56
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Wakanda doesn't have any people in it.
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Feb 21, 2018 03:03
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:It's like superman movies and jimmy olsen, sometimes they think of something for him to do and sometimes he's totally superfluous but he's in every movie because that is who is in superman movies. The most recent Jimmy Olsen appearance in a Superman movie has him playing a CIA agent working undercover in Africa to further a western agenda. He gets shot in the head. Quite the contrast.
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Feb 21, 2018 04:04
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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:Imagine if at the end of Episode I, Darth Maul apologizes to Qui-Gon Jinn while lying there cut in half. That's this movie. should have apologized to the audience
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Feb 21, 2018 04:05
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garycoleisgod posted:Also, Ross was not a CIA agent in the comics! And specifically wasn’t it a change for this Movie? I could have sworn in Civil War his position was more of a vague Tom Clancy counterterrorist operations commander than being flat-out CIA.
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Feb 21, 2018 04:16
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Fart City posted:And specifically wasn’t it a change for this Movie? I could have sworn in Civil War his position was more of a vague Tom Clancy counterterrorist operations commander than being flat-out CIA. He changed jobs in between movies.
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Feb 21, 2018 04:22
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Gatts posted:He changed jobs in between movies. I love both this movie and Civil War, so I'm loath to point this out, but outside of the scenes with Bucky in both films they take place like, a week apart.
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Feb 21, 2018 04:25
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It seems real weird to say the movie doesn't take any stance on the CIA and that they are basically just nebulously there because Ross has to be. They show up a third of the way through the movie doing one of the things Wakandans seem to fear most about people discovering them (greedily chasing Vibranium), take custody of the arms dealer who they were previously buying from and who BP was hunting, then we find out that they explicitly trained the main villain in the "murder people and destabilize governments" strategy he uses to briefly take over Wakanda. Like, they have the biggest influence on Wakanda the outside world has ever had, immediately before they reveal themselves.
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Feb 21, 2018 04:30
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