|
temple posted:that wasn't the point of the movie but feel free to reach for the moon. That's the world that Erik grew up in that he invokes through dialogue repeatedly. temple posted:the point was bridging the gap, not taking down the man. for whatever reason, white people are making the movie about them and not about black people. we don't obsess over white people and oppression all the time, calm down. bp was basically family business the movie. Except that the villain's plan was to take down the man and upend the global order. Did you watch it?
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2018 04:01
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 23, 2024 23:39 |
|
|
Snowman_McK posted:Except that the villain's plan was to take down the man and upend the global order. YOLOsubmarine posted:This is an extremely silly take. KVeezy3 posted:The entire concept of Wakanda is a fantasy about not being oppressed. It's pretty difficult to make a movie more about oppression than that. temple fucked around with this message at 04:31 on Feb 27, 2018 |
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2018 04:27
|
|
|
temple posted:this is an lazy reply. maybe you should try my post history next time Your argument is that a movie basically doesn’t care about numerous topics it repeatedly goes out of its way to engage with, so a lazy is really more than it deserves.
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2018 04:34
|
|
|
temple posted:the villain's motivation was more complicated than that and he represented a form of unity that contrasted t'chaka's reign. he literally dreamed of going to wakanda. the narration to the beginning of the film was him asking his father about wakanda. once again, white people making the movie about white people. Why did Erik dream about going to Wakanda?
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2018 04:35
|
|
|
temple posted:the villain's motivation was more complicated than that and he represented a form of unity that contrasted t'chaka's reign. he literally dreamed of going to wakanda. the narration to the beginning of the film was him asking his father about wakanda. once again, white people making the movie about white people. Really? When he wanted to export weapons to the black diaspora and have them conquer their oppressors , it was more complicated than wanting to export weapons to the black diaspora and have them conquer their oppressors? And having black people conquer their oppressors was not the point of a plan where that is the explicit end goal? If you want to tie his childhood fantasy into it, his motive gets simpler. Not more complicated. temple posted:wakandans were never colonized or oppressed. that's the opposite of what wakanda was. You're aware you basically directly repeated what the guy you're responding to said, right? Wakanda is defined by being black people who were never conquered. And even if you were right, the villain was oppressed. That's his motivation. That he says. Explicitly. Repeatedly. Including his introductory scene in the museum. And also as he dies. So, once again, did you watch the film? Snowman_McK fucked around with this message at 04:41 on Feb 27, 2018 |
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2018 04:38
|
|
|
Christopher Lebron's got a good take along these lines if not nearly as immediately provocative: http://bostonreview.net/race/christopher-lebron-black-panther
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2018 04:50
|
|
|
i am the bird posted:Why did Erik dream about going to Wakanda? Snowman_McK posted:Really? When he wanted to export weapons to the black diaspora and have them conquer their oppressors , it was more complicated than wanting to export weapons to the black diaspora and have them conquer their oppressors? And having black people conquer their oppressors was not the point of a plan where that is the explicit end goal? temple fucked around with this message at 05:11 on Feb 27, 2018 |
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2018 05:03
|
|
|
temple posted:the film wasn't about opposing oppression The film where a guy wants to arm the world's black populace to overthrow their oppressors isn't about opposing oppression. Okay. Are you aware of what you're actually arguing at this point? It feels like you may have lost it a while back.
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2018 05:18
|
|
|
Snowman_McK posted:The film where a guy wants to arm the world's black populace to overthrow their oppressors isn't about opposing oppression. for a film about fighting oppression, why do we never see fighting against oppression?
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2018 05:25
|
|
|
temple posted:wakandans were never colonized or oppressed. that's the opposite of what wakanda was. I'm not talking about the movie as if it's a documentary about a real place. Wakanda is a fantasy about not being oppressed, but the immediate enjoyment of its static reality is structured around and mediated by oppression. A fantasy is nothing more than what it blocks out.
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2018 05:30
|
|
|
KVeezy3 posted:I'm not talking about the movie as if it's a documentary about a real place. Wakanda is a fantasy about not being oppressed, but the immediate enjoyment of its static reality is structured around and mediated by oppression. A fantasy is nothing more than what it blocks out.
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2018 05:57
|
|
|
temple posted:for a film about fighting oppression, why do we never see fighting against oppression? Because the primary agent of oppression in the world looks a lot like Tony Stark. And guys who sound a lot like Captain America work for him. Because this is a film where 'fighting oppression' is what the villain wants to do, and he can't succeed, or even look like he's going to succeed. Because the film is the sort of bland middle of the road 'both sides are wrong' horseshit that we apparently like now Sorry, was that supposed to be rhetorical? I mean, I've got more, but if it was supposed to be rhetorical, I'll leave it. temple posted:he wanted to see wakanda and he believed that knowledge of wakanda and its power would lead to a world wide revolution. what the film does depict is the beauty and advancement of wakanda while maintaining cultural integrity Except that he ships out weapons first, and says that this is to overthrow oppression. This is the explicit text of the film. A thing that he never says he'll do and takes no steps to do is, according to you, the point of the movie.
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2018 06:08
|
|
|
Snowman_McK posted:Because the primary agent of oppression in the world looks a lot like Tony Stark. And guys who sound a lot like Captain America work for him. temple fucked around with this message at 06:14 on Feb 27, 2018 |
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2018 06:12
|
|
|
temple posted:Why are you making the film about white men? Because that's who actually does the oppressing in the real world, which the film explicitly, specifically, and repeatedly mentions, you dense gently caress. However, the MCU can never actually acknowledge this, which is why, in a film called Black Panther we still get a heroic CIA agent, played by Martin Freeman (whiteman.jpg)
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2018 06:16
|
|
|
Whiteness and blackness don’t exist without oppression, so I’m not sure I follow this train of thought at all.
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2018 06:16
|
|
|
i am the bird posted:Whiteness and blackness don’t exist without oppression, so I’m not sure I follow this train of thought at all. does blackness exist in wakanda? its really funny watching people trying to grapple with pan-african politics with absolutely no experience with it outside of a super hero movie.. temple fucked around with this message at 06:22 on Feb 27, 2018 |
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2018 06:20
|
|
|
temple posted:does blackness exist in wakanda? Does a point to all this exist? Can you actually say what the gently caress your point is instead of obliquely hinting at it?
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2018 06:22
|
|
|
Snowman_McK posted:Does a point to all this exist? there is no point I'm hinting at. you have no conception of african and black identity but you know what black panther is about.
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2018 06:23
|
|
|
temple posted:does blackness exist in wakanda? its really funny watching people trying to grapple with pan-african politics with absolutely no experience with it outside of a super hero movie.. Yes, they use ideas of blackness to disguise and hide from the rest of the world.
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2018 06:23
|
|
|
temple posted:there is no point I'm hinting at. temple posted:you have no conception of african and black identity but you know what black panther is about. KVeezy3 posted:Yes, they use ideas of blackness to disguise and hide from the rest of the world. gently caress, I missed that. They literally disguise their country as an African stereotype.
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2018 06:25
|
|
|
KVeezy3 posted:Yes, they use ideas of blackness to disguise and hide from the rest of the world. that's a good answer. their concept of blackness is purely superficial but they do not possess a black identity. their identity is wakandan and then tribal.
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2018 06:26
|
|
|
Snowman_McK posted:Oh good. We can stop then.
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2018 06:27
|
|
|
temple posted:that's a good answer. their concept of blackness is purely superficial but they do not possess a black identity. their identity is wakandan and then tribal. And the film's villain is someone who had their tribal and Wakandan identity taken from him, growing up in a place where it is very bad to be a young black man, hence why actually discussing oppression and the real world apply to the loving movie that you increasingly obviously either haven't seen or can't remember.
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2018 06:27
|
|
|
temple posted:that's a good answer. their concept of blackness is purely superficial but they do not possess a black identity. their identity is wakandan and then tribal. That's only if you're viewing it as an actual place and not a work of fiction. The identity of being Wakandian is itself a determinate negation of oppression. Hence all of the hand wringing over how the movie should not be criticized because black people enjoy it.
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2018 06:40
|
|
|
Snowman_McK posted:And the film's villain is someone who had their tribal and Wakandan identity taken from him, growing up in a place where it is very bad to be a young black man, hence why actually discussing oppression and the real world apply to the loving movie that you increasingly obviously either haven't seen or can't remember. i thought we were done?
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2018 06:42
|
|
|
temple posted:who took his wakandan identity? The answer is not a person, but the general nature of growing up in Oakland, which is a real place, where the idea of black people who are self determining and empowered can only exist as a complete fantasy. Saying 'T'Chaka' ignores that the film specifically has him abandoned in a real place that exists. A place that is horrible to grow up in as a young black man. EDIT: And yeah, he was abandoned there because his father wanted to alleviate oppression. How the gently caress are you arguing that a theme that runs right through the film isn't what the film is about? Snowman_McK fucked around with this message at 06:52 on Feb 27, 2018 |
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2018 06:48
|
|
|
temple posted:who took his wakandan identity? T’Chaka denied Erik access to Wakanda because Erik’s father wanted to use Wakandan technology to help better black lives in America, which would’ve pulled Wakanda into American — if not global — affairs. Erik identifies as Wakandan so no one ‘took’ his identity, just the privileges that came with it. If you don’t want to talk about whiteness, that’s fine. But black people oppress other black people as well, and on a systemic level, that’s about capitalism and colonialism, which are the foundations for race as a social and economic construct. Wakanda exploits the suffering throughout Africa to hide in plain sight by adopting a ‘third world’ image, and T’Chaka kills his brother and abandons his nephew for risking the exposure of their sanctuary. But no, there’s no oppression here. i am the bird fucked around with this message at 06:57 on Feb 27, 2018 |
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2018 06:51
|
|
|
Snowman_McK posted:The answer is not a person, but the general nature of growing up in Oakland, which is a real place, where the idea of black people who are self determining and empowered can only exist as a complete fantasy.
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2018 06:53
|
|
|
temple posted:you are running from the text. you have to insert america and white people into the film for some reason. if you took out the racial dimension, its a film about two cousins fighting for control of the family. the black sheep was abandoned over a dispute for the direction of the family and returned to wrestle power from golden child. the film would work the same. but your reading wouldn't work anymore. In your raceless version, who is Erik reaching out to for his revolutionary plans?
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2018 06:58
|
|
|
temple posted:you are running from the text. you have to insert america and white people into the film for some reason. if you took out the racial dimension, its a film about two cousins fighting for control of the family. the black sheep was abandoned over a dispute for the direction of the family and returned to wrestle power from golden child. the film would work the same. but your reading wouldn't work anymore. The movie itself inserted America by starting and ending the film in Oakland, having the main villain be an American, and having the token white guy be a CIA agent. Acting like the movie is not making a statement about being black in America is being willfully dense to the point of absurdity.
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2018 07:02
|
|
|
temple posted:you are running from the text. you have to insert america and white people into the film for some reason. temple posted:if you took out the racial dimension, its a film about two cousins fighting for control of the family. temple posted:The black sheep was abandoned over a dispute for the direction of the family and returned to wrestle power from golden child. the film would work the same. but your reading wouldn't work anymore.
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2018 07:04
|
|
|
AnEdgelord posted:The movie itself inserted America by starting and ending the film in Oakland, having the main villain be an American, and having the token white guy be a CIA agent. i am the bird posted:In your raceless version, who is Erik reaching out to for his revolutionary plans? temple fucked around with this message at 07:09 on Feb 27, 2018 |
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2018 07:06
|
|
|
temple posted:what statement is making about being black in america? That's why people are angry at the movie.
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2018 07:09
|
|
|
Snowman_McK posted:It's Africa's fault for not helping.
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2018 07:10
|
|
|
temple posted:why is oppression synomious with blackness? Colonialism, slavery, jim crow, segregation, the current white supremacist state of the US. Take your pick
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2018 07:10
|
|
|
temple posted:that's you racist opinion. That's the film's implicit message. Erik grew up in a nightmare in the US, in Oakland. This is, in the film's narrative, the fault of T'Chaka for leaving him there, not the fault of the people who've built, perpetuated and profited from that system that turned Erik into what he is, people who aren't even hinted at in the film. A system the film visually and verbally references more or less constantly. Like I said, I'm unconvinced that the film has any clear message or makes any coherent statement, since any of the ones that it seems to go for are undermined by plot or character specifics. But, if it can be said to have one (and that is, as I said, a dicey proposition) it's that. temple posted:why is wakanda responsible for ending oppression? It isn't. Or, at least, shouldn't be. Yet that's the ending of the film. T'Challa opens up an outreach centre. The answer is that any real answer for addressing oppression of black people in the US is going to involve people that look a lot like Tony Stark and sound a lot like Captain America. Snowman_McK fucked around with this message at 07:17 on Feb 27, 2018 |
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2018 07:12
|
|
|
temple posted:you are running from the text. you have to insert america and white people into the film for some reason. if you took out the racial dimension, its a film about two cousins fighting for control of the family. the black sheep was abandoned over a dispute for the direction of the family and returned to wrestle power from golden child. the film would work the same. but your reading wouldn't work anymore. “T’Challa represents … an African that hasn’t been affected by colonization,” Coogler said. “So what we wanted to do was contrast that with a reflection of the diaspora. But the diaspora that’s the most affected by it. And what you get with that is you get African Americans. You get the African that’s not only a product of colonization, but also a product of the worst form of colonization, which is slavery. It was about that clash.”
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2018 07:14
|
|
|
Pan-Africanism is a response to colonialism. Racism and colonialism create race. Blackness is not intrinsic. There is no such thing as blackness without whiteness. temple posted:that's your racist opinion. why is wakanda responsible for ending oppression? One of the core debates within the film is whether or not Wakanda is responsible for helping other black people. Erik enacts a convoluted plan to gain access to Wakanda, take its throne, and engage Wakanda in a world revolution to put black folks in the seats of global power. T’Challa finds this too radical because of the violence. In the end, the incident moderates T’Challa’s opinion, he acts on this debate, and decides that, yes, Wakanda is responsible for helping other black people. That is the literal text of the film.
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2018 07:15
|
|
|
you quoted the director, really?i am the bird posted:Pan-Africanism is a response to colonialism. Racism and colonialism create race. Blackness is not intrinsic. There is no such thing as blackness without whiteness. temple fucked around with this message at 07:20 on Feb 27, 2018 |
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2018 07:16
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 23, 2024 23:39 |
|
|
temple posted:you quoted the director, really? We've been quoting the film, but you've been ignoring that. Probably because you haven't seen it. You should. It's a fun use of two hours provided you don't think about it. Also, you'll be better equipped for this thread.
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2018 07:18
|
|