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Pixelboy
Sep 13, 2005

Now, I know what you're thinking...

Pollyanna posted:

It is done, then - original offer as it stands will be fine. I tried :shrug:

I'm not going to discount the opportunity, but there's others I'm interested in as well and I'd like to see where they go. I'm just afraid of losing the opportunity entirely, and that the attempt at negotiating would paint me in a negative light with the hiring manager.


No, he's right. I don't have the skills or experience to back up my requested salary. That will come with time.

How long is the offer valid? These things tend to have an expiry date, so if you intend to play one off the other you should probably be well into finishing your loops elsewhere.

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Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


Pixelboy posted:

How long is the offer valid? These things tend to have an expiry date, so if you intend to play one off the other you should probably be well into finishing your loops elsewhere.

Well...the other places are just current prospective things - i.e. early stages. This one offer will probably be standing for a while before I get offers from the others. Reason I'm looking at the others is because they're larger and more established (i.e. more stable and secure), and are more likely to support me in my development.

So, no, I am not in a position to bounce offers off of each other. Now that I think about it, it is kind of rude to ask this place to hold on while I interview with other places. Is this the time to make a decision on the offer?

The Fool
Oct 16, 2003


If you aren't expecting other offers before the end of the week, you should make a decision on the first offer.


That being said, you can and should continue the interview process at the other companies.

fantastic in plastic
Jun 15, 2007

The Socialist Workers Party's newspaper proved to be a tough sell to downtown businessmen.
Contact the other companies you're in the application process with. Tell them you're currently considering an offer with such-and-such a deadline, and ask them to expedite the process.

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


They're larger companies and they move more slowly, I don't expect at least one them to expedite the process - that one said as much when I said I wanted to fast track it. The other, maybe, but I'm not holding my breath.

Should I try one more time to ask for an extra $10k, or is the unspoken meaning "no negotiation, sorry"? They did say "all that being said, we are interested in finding something that makes sense for both of us", but I don't know how much that applies so I'm hesitant to do so.

fantastic in plastic
Jun 15, 2007

The Socialist Workers Party's newspaper proved to be a tough sell to downtown businessmen.
They don't think you have any leverage. You could try seeing if they'll give you more vacation or some other non-salary compensation, or you could go improve your position by getting a better offer.

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


fantastic in plastic posted:

They don't think you have any leverage. You could try seeing if they'll give you more vacation or some other non-salary compensation, or you could go improve your position by getting a better offer.

The latter would take too long and wouldn't be a sure thing (who knows if I'll pass their interviews?), while the former is made more complicated by an unlimited vacation policy and I don't know what other kinds of compensation I can get.

I should mention that I am not dying for a job or anything, and these other positions are compelling and interesting enough for me to potentially decline this offer in exchange for interviewing at the other places. There are also some things that give me pause about the company that gave me an offer. Guess I gotta make my decision tonight.

ultrafilter
Aug 23, 2007

It's okay if you have any questions.


Pollyanna posted:

They're larger companies and they move more slowly, I don't expect at least one them to expedite the process - that one said as much when I said I wanted to fast track it. The other, maybe, but I'm not holding my breath.

Fast tracking just because and fast tracking because you have another offer are two different things. No harm in asking.

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


ultrafilter posted:

Fast tracking just because and fast tracking because you have another offer are two different things. No harm in asking.

True. When I manage to get in contact with them again (they've been kinda flakey over the past few days) I will bring it up. I will tell the first offer that I understand their position and to give me a few days to consider my options.

EDIT: I might try one more time to ask for $100k instead of $120k, is that kosher or is this where I should simply stop trying to negotiate?

Pollyanna fucked around with this message at 02:16 on Feb 27, 2018

ultrafilter
Aug 23, 2007

It's okay if you have any questions.


You're not getting more than $90k from this company, and asking after a pretty clear no is not going to look good.

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


Gotcha.

The Fool
Oct 16, 2003


Pollyanna posted:

They did say "all that being said, we are interested in finding something that makes sense for both of us", but I don't know how much that applies so I'm hesitant to do so.

What they meant by this is that they might be open to negotiating benefits. Vacation, Stock, etc.

mrmcd
Feb 22, 2003

Pictured: The only good cop (a fictional one).

ultrafilter posted:

You're not getting more than $90k from this company, and asking after a pretty clear no is not going to look good.

Yeah. You could very well get it from someone else, but you gotta be willing to walk away. It's a question of if you want to work for this company, at that price.

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


The Fool posted:

What they meant by this is that they might be open to negotiating benefits. Vacation, Stock, etc.

That makes sense. I don't know what other benefits I could get, though, given they already have an unlimited vacation policy. Stock, maybe?

mrmcd posted:

Yeah. You could very well get it from someone else, but you gotta be willing to walk away. It's a question of if you want to work for this company, at that price.

Yeah, with this company, I'm already kind of on the fence about it, so...

spiritual bypass
Feb 19, 2008

Grimey Drawer
Signing bonus is worth a shot

comedyblissoption
Mar 15, 2006

Good Will Hrunting posted:

For sure but assuming a class implements it without checking or testing your poo poo and thus neglecting to call 'close' before merging to prod without any review is also pretty stupid.
Manually de-allocating resources is a poor language design decision, and I would never fault someone for forgetting.

Intentionally not following an established process for checking in stuff would be stupid though.

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


rt4 posted:

Signing bonus is worth a shot

Meh, I'm not counting on it.

I'm thinking my best option is to take the offer, continue interviewing with other companies to see if I like them, then bailing on the first company if it turns out to suck. Does that sound okay?

b0lt
Apr 29, 2005

Star War Sex Parrot posted:

gently caress you, splay trees forever.

One weird trick to tell if someone went to CMU and took a class from Daniel Sleator.

Splay trees are garbage.

Star War Sex Parrot
Oct 2, 2003

b0lt posted:

One weird trick to tell if someone went to CMU and took a class from Daniel Sleator.

Splay trees are garbage.

Good Will Hrunting
Oct 8, 2012

I changed my mind.
I'm not sorry.

comedyblissoption posted:

Manually de-allocating resources is a poor language design decision, and I would never fault someone for forgetting.

Intentionally not following an established process for checking in stuff would be stupid though.

It's literally part of this API's functionality, so it's beyond "manually de-allocating resources". It's not like it would have occasionally caused a leak or or something. The code straight up didn't function like it was intended (or at all really) and was in prod for over a week with nobody checking.

https://github.com/GoogleCloudPlatf...tream.java#L203

FYI also please don't quote this because I'm becoming dangerously close to doxing myself lol

Good Will Hrunting fucked around with this message at 05:15 on Feb 27, 2018

Tezzeract
Dec 25, 2007

Think I took a wrong turn...

Pollyanna posted:

Meh, I'm not counting on it.

I'm thinking my best option is to take the offer, continue interviewing with other companies to see if I like them, then bailing on the first company if it turns out to suck. Does that sound okay?

Honestly, if they're not willing to meet you even part way on negotiating on an offer you're not happy with in the current economy, it is fine to continue searching.

I'm not sure about your financial situation, but if you really are chasing the money, it might be worth interviewing for a big tech firm.

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


Tezzeract posted:

Honestly, if they're not willing to meet you even part way on negotiating on an offer you're not happy with in the current economy, it is fine to continue searching.

I'm not sure about your financial situation, but if you really are chasing the money, it might be worth interviewing for a big tech firm.

It's not that the pay is bad, per se, it's just that I got greedy and tried to ask for $120k out the gate. I'm also afraid of being de/undervalued and I want to avoid it. That said, the pay that I was trying to hit is clearly for people further ahead in their career than I am, so I think I just can't pull that salary yet.

I'm more interested in good problem-solving opportunities and a sensible work-life balance right now.

That said, there are other things I can ask for. Think it's worth trying to negotiate for a 40-hour upper limit, since I'm most concerned about work-life balance? Or are negotiations finished?

Pollyanna fucked around with this message at 05:17 on Feb 27, 2018

comedyblissoption
Mar 15, 2006

Good Will Hrunting posted:

It's literally part of this API's functionality, so it's beyond "manually de-allocating resources". It's not like it would have occasionally caused a leak or or something. The code straight up didn't function like it was intended (or at all really) and was in prod for over a week with nobody checking.
That's fair. I still like languages making forgetting something a compile time error or impossible.

muon
Sep 13, 2008

by Reene

Pollyanna posted:

It's not that the pay is bad, per se, it's just that I got greedy and tried to ask for $120k out the gate. I'm also afraid of being de/undervalued and I want to avoid it. That said, the pay that I was trying to hit is clearly for people further ahead in their career than I am, so I think I just can't pull that salary yet.

I'm more interested in good problem-solving opportunities and a sensible work-life balance right now.

That said, there are other things I can ask for. Think it's worth trying to negotiate for a 40-hour upper limit, since I'm most concerned about work-life balance? Or are negotiations finished?

You did absolutely nothing wrong by asking for what you believe you are worth, especially when we're talking about an industry that generate insane returns on labor

Further, if having a 40 hour work week is a requirement for you, I'd just state it up front: "I'm still interested in the offer, but I wanted to double check on something: I'm only interested in working 40 hours a week unless there's a true emergency. Is that okay?"

Xarn
Jun 26, 2015
Is it actually common in USA that companies expect more? Because drat, when will you guys fix your poo poo?

Blinkz0rz
May 27, 2001

MY CONTEMPT FOR MY OWN EMPLOYEES IS ONLY MATCHED BY MY LOVE FOR TOM BRADY'S SWEATY MAGA BALLS

Pollyanna posted:

It's not that the pay is bad, per se, it's just that I got greedy and tried to ask for $120k out the gate. I'm also afraid of being de/undervalued and I want to avoid it. That said, the pay that I was trying to hit is clearly for people further ahead in their career than I am, so I think I just can't pull that salary yet.

I'm more interested in good problem-solving opportunities and a sensible work-life balance right now.

That said, there are other things I can ask for. Think it's worth trying to negotiate for a 40-hour upper limit, since I'm most concerned about work-life balance? Or are negotiations finished?

Pollyanna, I'm going to drop some hard truths on you.

I've been reading your posts for the better part of at least a year and I've gotta say that in contrast to what you may think, you've drastically overvalued yourself in the market.

You don't have a CS degree, you went to a boot camp. You don't have consistent years of experience, you have a few short stints at companies that didn't work out. You don't have a unique set of skills, you're a pretty bog-standard rails and frontend developer.

I don't say these things to be mean, I say them to help you level-set your expectations. You've been hearing from this thread, the newbie thread, and the interviewing thread in yospos that you (Pollyanna) should always ask for more and that you (Pollyanna) shouldn't settle for an offer, but I'm going to take the other tact and tell you that you're not the kind of person, much less the kind of engineer that should keep pushing for more at this point in your career.

You're not the kind of engineer that should be solving interesting problems because you don't have a track record of doing anything of the sort. You're not the kind of engineer that can negotiate an extra $30k from a company because you don't provide them anything that they can't get for $90k. You're not the kind of engineer that can demand gobs of cash from a big tech company because you're just not good enough.

There are folks who are going to disagree with me but they most likely have a very different perspective than you and I. I've hired a number of Pollyannas during my career and the ones who have been successful are the ones that have understood that they have a toe-hold in the industry by virtue of whatever factor gave them the drive to get through their boot camp. They've taken that and doubled down on it to work harder and smarter than their peers. So far all I've seen is a person who thinks that they've made it simply by virtue of getting a job in tech.

Might I suggest, instead of asking so many questions of this thread that you actually do some honest to god programming. Take this job for whatever they're giving. Don't fight them on the number of hours you work, just go in and do the job. If they're giving you some wiggle room in negotiations ask for a few more % on your bonus. Go in to work, sit down at your laptop and do something productive instead of hemming and hawing about how you think your career should be.

Blinkz0rz fucked around with this message at 13:59 on Feb 27, 2018

Xarn
Jun 26, 2015

Blinkz0rz posted:

Don't fight them on the number of hours you work

As long as it is <= 40.

Blinkz0rz
May 27, 2001

MY CONTEMPT FOR MY OWN EMPLOYEES IS ONLY MATCHED BY MY LOVE FOR TOM BRADY'S SWEATY MAGA BALLS

Xarn posted:

As long as it is <= 40.

For a normal person in this thread I'd say yes, but Pollyanna literally has no track record of excellent work to point to. She needs to put in whatever hours are required if she wants to be the sort of engineer this thread coalesces around.

Blinkz0rz fucked around with this message at 14:41 on Feb 27, 2018

Good Will Hrunting
Oct 8, 2012

I changed my mind.
I'm not sorry.
Pollyanna post your resume

metztli
Mar 19, 2006
Which lead to the obvious photoshop, making me suspect that their ad agencies or creative types must be aware of what goes on at SA
Polly, just get a job at a CRUD factory staffed by lifers with the same 1 year of experience repeated endlessly.

You will more easily be able to find one with work life balance and stability, and, if you’re lucky, reasonable pay. The problems won’t be interesting, but hey, 3 our of 4 ain’t bad.

Either do that or do what Blink said and toughen the gently caress up, buckle down, and spend more time writing code and learning stuff and less time endlessly asking variations of the same questions here.

Keetron
Sep 26, 2008

Check out my enormous testicles in my TFLC log!

Blinkz0rz posted:

Pollyanna, I'm going to drop some hard truths on you.

I've been reading your posts for the better part of at least a year and I've gotta say that in contrast to what you may think, you've drastically overvalued yourself in the market.

You don't have a CS degree, you went to a boot camp. You don't have consistent years of experience, you have a few short stints at companies that didn't work out. You don't have a unique set of skills, you're a pretty bog-standard rails and frontend developer.

I don't say these things to be mean, I say them to help you level-set your expectations. You've been hearing from this thread, the newbie thread, and the interviewing thread in yospos that you (Pollyanna) should always ask for more and that you (Pollyanna) shouldn't settle for an offer, but I'm going to take the other tact and tell you that you're not the kind of person, much less the kind of engineer that should keep pushing for more at this point in your career.

You're not the kind of engineer that should be solving interesting problems because you don't have a track record of doing anything of the sort. You're not the kind of engineer that can negotiate an extra $30k from a company because you don't provide them anything that they can't get for $90k. You're not the kind of engineer that can demand gobs of cash from a big tech company because you're just not good enough.

There are folks who are going to disagree with me but they most likely have a very different perspective than you and I. I've hired a number of Pollyannas during my career and the ones who have been successful are the ones that have understood that they have a toe-hold in the industry by virtue of whatever factor gave them the drive to get through their boot camp. They've taken that and doubled down on it to work harder and smarter than their peers. So far all I've seen is a person who thinks that they've made it simply by virtue of getting a job in tech.

Might I suggest, instead of asking so many questions of this thread that you actually do some honest to god programming. Take this job for whatever they're giving. Don't fight them on the number of hours you work, just go in and do the job. If they're giving you some wiggle room in negotiations ask for a few more % on your bonus. Go in to work, sit down at your laptop and do something productive instead of hemming and hawing about how you think your career should be.

Doing a full quote because I agree with the guy.
Also, I think 99% of the developers in this industry and in this thread aren't brilliant coders just like most people in the world who are mediocre, average or maybe a bit above (and thus some will have to be below). There are very few outliers and do not consider yourself to be one.

Can we, with the post by Blinkz0rz, please stop with giving PollyAnna advise or tell her what to do? PollyAnna, can you please stop posting and start working? My feeling for a while is that your relationship with the forums is unhealthy and I cannot exactly put to words why, but I think you know what I mean.

So in short:

Leave PollyAnna Alone!

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


Yeah, I think I'm done.

CPColin
Sep 9, 2003

Big ol' smile.
Don't recommend that people work more than forty hours a week, you monsters, what's wrong with you? Or rather, don't suggest that inexperience means a forty-hour week is not an acceptable demand. People died fighting for that poo poo and US companies don't need more ways to pressure employees to work themselves to death.

Good Will Hrunting
Oct 8, 2012

I changed my mind.
I'm not sorry.

CPColin posted:

Don't recommend that people work more than forty hours a week, you monsters, what's wrong with you? Or rather, don't suggest that inexperience means a forty-hour week is not an acceptable demand. People died fighting for that poo poo and US companies don't need more ways to pressure employees to work themselves to death.

It's not even efficient! Just lmao if you think working more than 40 hours will do anything besides burn someone out

Phobeste
Apr 9, 2006

never, like, count out Touchdown Tom, man

CPColin posted:

Don't recommend that people work more than forty hours a week, you monsters, what's wrong with you? Or rather, don't suggest that inexperience means a forty-hour week is not an acceptable demand. People died fighting for that poo poo and US companies don't need more ways to pressure employees to work themselves to death.

Sure and I agree normatively (and practice what I preach) but you do have to understand that in the world as it exists today it can be an exceptional request specifically in the startup world that Pollyanna is trying to get into.

CPColin
Sep 9, 2003

Big ol' smile.

Phobeste posted:

Sure and I agree normatively (and practice what I preach) but you do have to understand that in the world as it exists today it can be an exceptional request specifically in the startup world that Pollyanna is trying to get into.

I do understand that it's an exceptional request; that's why we all have to keep making it. And the suggestion to go above forty hours a week wasn't made based on Pollyanna's offer being from a startup; it was made based on Pollyanna not having enough experience. And that's terrible.

kitten smoothie
Dec 29, 2001

Good Will Hrunting posted:

It's not even efficient! Just lmao if you think working more than 40 hours will do anything besides burn someone out

For serious there are plenty of shops out there where you can "put in your time" and not work 50-60 hour weeks.

If I were Pollyanna I would start looking at academic labs or departments that need developers. Many offer very interesting work because often times you're writing software to support research, and even they need CRUD apps. It's also academia which is a nice steady lowkey 9-5. Finally she's in Boston where there are probably more academic labs than Dunkin Donuts locations.

There will come a point in such a job where you dead-end because universities hate advancing people without PhDs, but by the time you approach that wall, you will have leveled up enough as an engineer to transition to a mid-to-senior position elsewhere.

Volguus
Mar 3, 2009

Keetron posted:

Also, I think 99% of the developers in this industry and in this thread aren't brilliant coders just like most people in the world who are mediocre, average or maybe a bit above (and thus some will have to be below). There are very few outliers and do not consider yourself to be one.

Did you just assume my mediocrity level?

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


I'm going to accept the job, but I'm not going to let myself be put in an uncomfortable position. I understand my limits. That said, I'm not going to put my employment in jeopardy over it, because that sucks.

The point is that I learn and grow.

Either way, :yotj: and therefore we can be done with this. Still going to interview with other places and if they're interesting, I'll consider moving to them instead (even if leaving after signing the offer makes me awful), but we shall see.

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Keetron
Sep 26, 2008

Check out my enormous testicles in my TFLC log!

Volguus posted:

Did you just assume my mediocrity level?

Yes, I think just about everyone in this thread, myself included, is average and mediocre. Real greatness is so loving rare we should just stop assuming it includes us.

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