|
One can absolutely write mindlessly They tend to make the most money! I'll see myself to the door
|
#
?
Feb 15, 2018 05:01
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 4, 2024 09:15 |
|
|
in my experience it's writing with your dick that brings in the big bucks it's just hard to keep it up long enough when you're mashing it onto the keyboard
|
|
#
?
Feb 15, 2018 05:41
|
|
|
I'm no professional writer, but I tend to think if you're not enjoying what you're writing, and you really hate it, as opposed to liking the ideas of the story and just feeling a lack of inspiration, then it's probibly time to shelve it. Maybe stop and consider what you liked about it to start writing it, and start over from there. Starting over sucks, but personally hitting a brick wall sucks more. Or maybe simple step away, and do other things, and then come back to it after a few days/weeks/months, and you'll have some fresh perspective. I've been there sort of with a story I really liked, the "bird of dawn" story I mentioned before, but I kept hitting a brick wall of not liking where I was going, so I set it aside. Don't give up writing though. It feels like you'll never come up with another idea, and then you get another idea for a story that's more exciting to you than the one before.
|
|
#
?
Feb 15, 2018 06:55
|
|
|
Shageletic posted:Thanks, I'll think about it. I do appreciate the criticism, one of my biggest regrets is not getting a creative writing degree before grad school (instead of my super useful poli sci B.A.). I've always had an interest in writing but I really don't have the skills or practice I wish I already had. So the best thing I can do is to have critical people take a look at it I suppose and learn from that (I do feel embarrassed about already sending the earlier version to friends tho). Don't sweat the degree. I got a creative writing undergrad degree and very little about it actually helped me. True, some of that was because I was 19 years old and thought the most important thing in my life was raiding Molten Core, but I've found over the years that there's far more to be learned from reading a lot than there is from any clasroom. Besides, most of what you learn in creative writing programs is literary short stories, anyway. If you're interested in anything long-form or anything genre, the amount of practice you're going to get there is extremely limited.
|
|
#
?
Feb 15, 2018 16:03
|
|
|
Naerasa posted:Don't sweat the degree. I got a creative writing undergrad degree and very little about it actually helped me. True, some of that was because I was 19 years old and thought the most important thing in my life was raiding Molten Core, but I've found over the years that there's far more to be learned from reading a lot than there is from any clasroom. Besides, most of what you learn in creative writing programs is literary short stories, anyway. If you're interested in anything long-form or anything genre, the amount of practice you're going to get there is extremely limited. Yeah, this. Look up some of your favorite authors on wiki and I think you'll be surprised by how many of them studied something other than writing and/or English.
|
|
#
?
Feb 15, 2018 16:52
|
|
|
I wasn't a creative writing major in college or anything, but I took a few courses, and honestly the biggest benefit was they forced me to write a lot, edit a lot, and not overthink what I was doing for the length of the course.
|
|
#
?
Feb 15, 2018 17:36
|
|
|
I did a lot of creative writing classes in college, narrowly missing a minor by a few credits. I feel that they didn't teach me how to write better, just how to workshop better. Which is valuable in its own way, but because they were undergraduate courses it wasn't exactly the most serious writing environment. Mostly 19 year olds trying to do a "fun" class to shave off a few credits. I would've loved if there were classes that focused on giving a better foundation with grammar, style, and clarity in prose, or one that focused on story structure, setting up and paying off character arcs, how to weave themes into your work to deepen your ideas, etc. Technical and instructional. Having a balance of both would have been ideal for me, at least. e: I also had this frustration when doing screenwriting, playwriting, and sketch writing at various points in my academic and post-academic years. Every teacher just wanted to create a workshop environment, whereas I wanted something more guided, structured, and technical. I know, you tend to get better by reading, writing, getting feedback, refining, and repeating. But it just felt like floundering around without a guide much of the time. feedmyleg fucked around with this message at 17:47 on Feb 15, 2018 |
|
#
?
Feb 15, 2018 17:42
|
|
|
feedmyleg posted:I did a lot of creative writing classes, narrowly missing a minor by a few credits. I feel that they didn't teach me how to write better, just how to workshop better. Which is valuable in its own way, but because they were undergraduate courses it wasn't exactly the most serious writing environment. Mostly 19 year olds trying to do a "fun" class to shave off a few credits. I would've loved if there were classes that focused on giving a better foundation with grammar, style, and clarity in prose, or one that focused on story structure, setting up and paying off character arcs, how to weave themes into your work to deepen your ideas, etc. I guess I'm lucky that my college had the freshman-level "I need a Humanities credit" creative writing course, and a separate "I actually give a poo poo" creative writing course. I took the latter and there actually was a lot of focus on grammar/style/voice, and some structure, though it's hard to cover large-scale novel structure when you're only writing very short fiction every week.
|
|
#
?
Feb 15, 2018 17:47
|
|
|
Well, I went to the University of Iowa which has the infamous Writer's Workshop. I wasn't quite serious enough to commit to getting into the program at the time as I was also pursuing a number of other vocations including screenwriting and playwriting. Everyone who was in the "I actually give a poo poo" camp just went through the Workshop program, leaving me, the "I need a Humanities credit", and the "I'm a single mom going back to school in the evenings" folks together. Looking back I should have just gone into the Workshop and dropped out if I wasn't into it, but it was a bit of a frustrating experience.
|
|
#
?
Feb 15, 2018 17:52
|
|
|
apophenium posted:Can writing ever be useless? Like if I work really hard to write 1,500-2,000 words a day just advancing the plot on some story idea I had can I come out the other side of that learning nothing? I've been slowly adding to a story over the past few months and I hate it and I hate where it's going but I feel obligated to continue it rather than just keep jumping to new stories like I used to. Can one write mindlessly? Or if I slug away at that story and get to some kind of ending will I look back at it and think, "Oh hey, this part isn't too bad, and this character works to a certain extent," and excavate some kind of merit from it? Look up "sunk cost fallacy." However, that doesn't mean you've completely wasted your time. Whether you believe it or not, every word you write improves your writing ability by a minuscule amount. But yeah. If you just hate it, and you don't think you'll be able to stick the landing, set it down and walk away. Go write something else. You may come back to it and discover it's not nearly as bad as you thought, and in the meantime your subconscious mind may make connections that turn your slog into a masterpiece! Or else it'll be something you can raid for parts. Or maybe you'll go back to the point you think it went off the rails and write a whole new direction for the thing. But give yourself time to breathe, man. It's either an extraordinary writer or a lovely one who knocks out (what they think is) a complete novel on the first draft, start to finish, with no breaks in between to let the engine cool down.
|
|
#
?
Feb 15, 2018 19:17
|
|
|
Shageletic posted:Took another shot at the first page, if you don't wanna go through the trouble of parsing it again I understand. gently caress it, this is short enough to be "okay" but holy hell you have to give us a draw apart from "Danny was running away." I like your start, it has a bit of contrast and immediately gets into the conflict "He is running away" but reading about someone running away without any sort of stakes, consequence is a bit dull. Also, Danny is hardly a character so I'm adding a box of puppies to this piece, to see if we can wring out some characterization (Read Blood Rites by Jim Butcher for why this works!) your story posted:He was bolting down the field, knees high. Sweat beaded down his forehead, mouth open and soundless, eyes panic wide. His feet tore apart the soft soil and churned the pale flowers under them. Hey look, immediately we have puppies in the scene and EVERYONE loving LOVES PUPPIES. Also, we assume they are defenceless (Unlike Danny), so we care about them more. How does Danny feel about protecting a box of puppies, why is a box of puppies involved? quote:
Danny hosed up! What does he do now (Apart from running). Does he save the puppies that flew in the air? Does he blame himself for his impressive trip. or does he blame fate? Your Story posted:
Oh poo poo Danny you hosed up AGAIN (I'm saying Danny saved the puppies, but accidentally left one behind). And hey that puppy is BRAVE. Holy poo poo what happens to that puppy? Your answer will make the "Monster" following Danny actually DO something, and tell the reader if they are evil puppy eaters. Or does Danny save the puppy, at the cost of himself? your story posted:The quiet voice in the back of his mind spoke again. So I remembered your last line, hitting the wall like it owed him money. And it's a hilarious line the more and more I thought of it. Anyways, try and put a bit of character into Danny, apart from him tripping and being afraid. Give him, no give the READER some stakes apart from "Does Danny Live or Not."
|
|
#
?
Feb 17, 2018 16:28
|
|
|
Tbh while I agree with my learned colleagues that it's good to have a bit more context for his running, it's looking better. Ultimately the first page of a novel is doing something different from that of a short story, but hopefully it's useful to have an idea of how an unsympathetic eye would see it: don't assume the reader wants to turn the page, make them want to turn the page. Feel free to post a longer section in its own thread if it would be helpful.
|
|
#
?
Feb 17, 2018 21:20
|
|
|
Holy poo poo I should just add boxes of puppies to everything write
|
|
#
?
Feb 17, 2018 21:24
|
|
|
what the gently caress is this thread good for, not a single one of you has ever even kissed a book
|
|
#
?
Feb 18, 2018 01:57
|
|
|
true leftist posted:what the gently caress is this thread good for, not a single one of you has ever even kissed a book whats up av
|
|
#
?
Feb 18, 2018 02:01
|
|
|
anime was right posted:whats up av
|
|
#
?
Feb 18, 2018 02:17
|
|
|
true leftist posted:i've been sitting here for an hour with my tongue in a coetzee and nobody can tell me what to do next im just glad to see ur well, keep on keepin on
|
|
#
?
Feb 18, 2018 02:23
|
|
|
true leftist posted:what the gently caress is this thread good for, not a single one of you has ever even kissed a book https://youtu.be/pTznIZhqnmA
|
|
#
?
Feb 18, 2018 07:23
|
|
|
I’m new to this thread and writing so take this from a newbies perspective:quote:The meadow was made of white flowers, single lines of red bisecting their soft petals, swaying gently in the breeze. Long thin stalks raised them to near waist high, giving their star shaped forms a motion as ethereal, as ghostly, as the air that moved it. quote:He didn’t dwell on their delicate beauty. He was too busy running. quote:DANNY “his” mouth open and soundless? Otherwise I liked it. quote:He could hear them now. The rustling from multiple directions. The breathing, no, grunting, of different bodies running after him. quote:He didn’t dare look back. So he ran like his life depended on it, because it did. quote:His right foot went for the ground and missed. His face found it. He spit out dirt and blew out crushed flower petals with a shuddering breath. They scattered like ash. quote:His feet dug into the dirt, his hands pushing himself up. Sweat fell like damned rain, he had never been the athletic type. But he got himself up again and his legs churning. There, where the meadow ended, and a shadowed line of trees began, that was where he would get to. Wait. The “Wait” being part of this paragraph feels odd. I’d make a new paragraph ie “Wait...” then another new paragraph: “Think.” quote:Danny turned slowly, getting up, the mud deep in his shoes. The flowers, no longer blocking his esophagus, were waving beautifully again. Like nothing he had seen before, open white petals open to the sun. Nature, existing untouched. Existing…in the still air, without a breeze…
|
|
#
?
Feb 22, 2018 07:45
|
|
|
So fun fact Two trees that are round about 85 to 100 feet each smashing into your home will not, in fact, aid you in trying to write what so ever. this is something I've learned the hard way over the last month as I have attempted to work on my third draft only for literally everything to distract me as much as possible.
|
|
#
?
Feb 22, 2018 07:48
|
|
|
Burkion posted:So fun fact this is good intel, tyvm
|
|
#
?
Feb 22, 2018 07:59
|
|
|
Doing my best! I mean if you think the smell of wet formaldehyde and then fussing with an insurance company over stupid bullshit will aid you in writing, be my guest but it was of little use here!
|
|
#
?
Feb 22, 2018 08:03
|
|
|
https://www.theonion.com/author-of-introduction-to-algebra-recalls-textbook-be-1823273519
|
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2018 22:27
|
|
|
Does anyone have good advice for adding subplots to a story, fitting around a theme? Has anyone had a short story "skeleton" that they wanted to expand to novel length by adding subplots? The story is a fantasy sort of slice of life story about a boy trying to fit in with a new culture (lizard-folk), so the side plots should fit somewhat with that theme. I've been re-reading To Kill a Mockingbird because that's the sort of feel I'd like this to have, a small scale story with fairly lo stakes (the lives and livelihood of a few people as opposed to an entire city or country) and interesting characters.
|
|
#
?
Feb 25, 2018 19:10
|
|
|
A novel has to sustain the reader's interest throughout. While a short story can get away with less at stake and less plot, for a longer one, the reader has to be invested enough in the characters and their struggles to want to keep turning page after page after page. So the plot has to be of sufficient interest and depth to hold the reader's attention. Just adding subplots might not do it if they aren't that related to the protagonist. It doesn't need to be fate of the world stuff, of course, but the protagonist should have something they want but can't have, and they have to make meaningful choices about how to try to get it. Ask these questions for yourself.
Tie your subplots into how they'll affect the protagonist, what they want and how to get it.
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2018 02:39
|
|
|
Yeah, I guess that's problem, coming up with subplots that are around something the MC wants. What Zack Wants? Zack really wants to fit in. Keeping from getting it? Inhibitions and father's expectations Choice? Obedience as an outcast or disobedience and fitting in Terrible thing that will happen? For obedience, I guess being an outcast/not being able to play with the others (which is a big deal for a kid). If he disobeys he risks being punished. I guess need to figure out other things my MC wants and tie subplots to those. I suppose, using the TKaM example, it could be something as simple as "MC wants to learn more about a law case MC's father is working on", since Scout has little to do with solving that case, but her learning of it ties in with the themes of prejudice and the Boo Radley plot. Thanks.
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2018 09:19
|
|
|
spending time with other characters and painting the same story themes in a different light is generally a good thing to do with subplots if its cool or interesting. if you're writing a story that isnt a really tight plot piece, this is generally the funnest thing to do. its not bloat if its fun and/or satisfying to read. i mean ideally a subplot serves the plot and primary characters, but idk you can just do cool poo poo in your bookworld for the sake of it as long as it doesnt bore ppl.
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2018 09:39
|
|
|
You can also have subplots that are kicked off by more mundane necessities (e.g. Zack really wants an apple pie) and which lead to him meeting lizard-folk who struggle to fit in themselves (e.g. a blind lizard who spends a bunch of time at the bakery?) You can then toy around with expanding on how the lizardfolk treat their ill or handicapped, the elderly, how they experience the world (do they have the same senses as humans?), how Zack reacts to that... Off the top of my head I could think of a sub-plot involving someone who gets kicked out of their hobby club for some reason, a young lizardling from a petty noble family that has fallen out of grace, someone who was caught red-handed for a petty crime when they were young and who were appropriately punished and regret their actions, but they feel things will never be quite the same, etc. Your world might not involve lizard nobility or crime & punishment or whatnot, but think about that kind of stuff. Think about who else could have trouble fitting in, and depending on the target age group, make the sub-plots heavier stuff or more lighthearted. You can probably reinforce the central theme of the book by having Zack interact with others who are outcasts of some sort, even of their "own" lizard community, and helping them get accepted back into their group of friends/social circle. Think about how to weave worldbuilding into these plots, show different aspects of lizardfolk community, and different ways people can be ostracized. I guess, if you really want to tie this into the main plot, these side stories provide Zack with "allies" for a lack of better term, who vouch for him at the novel's climax? I think that's how I'd do it. Deltasquid fucked around with this message at 10:46 on Feb 26, 2018 |
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2018 10:42
|
|
|
These are all really good ideas! I was thinking I want contrasting subplots like this, but I was thinking it would be another human. For some reason I hadn't really thought of it being lizardfolk somehow. Thanks!anime was right posted:i mean ideally a subplot serves the plot and primary characters, but idk you can just do cool poo poo in your bookworld for the sake of it as long as it doesnt bore ppl. Foolster41 fucked around with this message at 19:30 on Feb 26, 2018 |
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2018 19:22
|
|
|
sebmojo posted:Tbh while I agree with my learned colleagues that it's good to have a bit more context for his running, it's looking better. lol thanks for the advice and the puppy edits, they do make it look better. Runaktla posted:I’m new to this thread and writing so take this from a newbies perspective: This too is useful, I'll keep it in mind during my next edit.
|
|
#
?
Feb 26, 2018 20:41
|
|
|
friendship/romance, bullying, and "side projects" are all classic subplots for middle grade and YA books. Harry Potter book 1: Main plot: there's some kind of stone and an evil dude who wants to kill Harry? Friendships: building/evolving friendships, especially w/Hermione, who isn't an "instant friend" like Ron Bullying: Draco & friends obviously Side Projects: school - I forget what the big thing they have to do in school is, but there always is one. Potions test or something Side Projects: sports - gotta win at broom-game Hunger Games: Main plot: stay alive Side Project: impress all the judges before it's go time Friendship: helping out Rue Romance: if there can be a romance when everyone is killing each other, there can be a romance anywhere Side Project: Keep P alive, also Throne of Glass: Main plot: win assassin competition Romance: both prince and captain of the guard are cute and maybe like her Friendship: she makes friends with a visiting princess Bullying: there is also a mean girl Side project: must solve some mysterious deaths
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2018 03:20
|
|
|
Need some advice! I've got 2 chapters left until I finish my first draft of my first novel. However, in writing the climax, some of my third act issues are becoming very clear. I've already figured out what changes I'd want to make, but it would require a significant rewrite of about 6 other chapters and an addition of 2 more. Do I go ahead and finish the first draft as-is since I'm so close, or do I go back and make the changes and continue from there? I can see the argument being made either way. Finishing the last two chapters with the current 3rd act could just be wasted time, but writing them out could also give me more of a foundation for when I revise and an understanding of what I'm working toward—and against.
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2018 14:44
|
|
|
Finish first, then fix it in the rewrite. They don't call it a second draft for nothing!
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2018 14:59
|
|
|
feedmyleg posted:Finishing the last two chapters with the current 3rd act could just be wasted time, How much time are we talking here? (just write them)
|
|
#
?
Mar 1, 2018 02:24
|
|
|
Leave notes for yourself, finish the current draft. Finish it. Finish it.
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2018 22:02
|
|
|
Thanks for the push, all. Even (slowly) working through the last two chapters now is giving me a lot of fuel for notes for the second draft and is helping to connect some earlier dots. Even if it's difficult to write something that contains stuff I know is going to just change in the relative future.
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2018 20:31
|
|
|
Do any of you have any experience repurposing misogynist tropes and ideas, especially from noir and hardboiled detective stories, like femme fatales, in a way that makes them... not misogynist and sexist?
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2018 22:56
|
|
|
Magnusth posted:Do any of you have any experience repurposing misogynist tropes and ideas, especially from noir and hardboiled detective stories, like femme fatales, in a way that makes them... not misogynist and sexist? Why? What's your goal? You can just gender swap if you like, but are you trying to not make 2018 people go ew, or do comedy, or interrogate the tropes themselves? A peerlessly woke character dropped into classic gumshoe noir would potentially be funny/interesting I guess.
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2018 23:13
|
|
|
You just do the character archetype without them being sexist Women can be femme fatale villain types just fine. Just because you have one doesn't make it sexist. Unless you mean the attitude the narrator tended to have about them, all dames and trouble times and all that stuff, then if you want THAT, there's your character flaw. They're sexist. Make that work for you. So long as you are aware of what you're writing, don't be afraid to make it work. Otherwise I'm not sure what you're even asking about.
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2018 23:22
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 4, 2024 09:15 |
|
|
To specify, once i'm done with my current story, i'm planing to write, uh, an urban fantasy noir story in heian era japan? Complete with the dangerous woman walking into the gumshoe's office and hiring him for Trouble. But the attendant tropes often make womanhood out to be dangerous, evil, mysterious, or all three, and have, uh, rather specific ideas of sexuality that aren't all that acceptable in 2018, and certainly aren't anything i might want to endorse. While i can probably just leave the structure as-is and downlplay the various sexist bits, i honestly would prefer to see if i could find some interesting ways to turn the tropes themselves on their head in a more in-depth way.
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2018 23:32
|
|