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Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised.
It might not have been pure vibranium. But in any case, who says it didn't? It isn't specified when the meteorite crashed.

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Seedge
Jun 15, 2009
Hey, buddy. :glomp:



McCloud posted:

Well sure, I get that, but the thing is T'challa has the power to do more than just teaching the victim how to stand up for hirself. And even if we accept that that this is the best solution at hand, he can still confront the abuser and call him out for being a piece of poo poo, you know? That is to say, I want the movie to more strongly condemn the systemic racism, instead of merely paying lip service to that effect.

Calling out an abuser has certainly resulted in big change so far when people do it!

Owlofcreamcheese
May 22, 2005
Probation
Can't post for 9 years!
Buglord

Inescapable Duck posted:

It might not have been pure vibranium. But in any case, who says it didn't? It isn't specified when the meteorite crashed.

In the comics it happened in the distant but remembered past, thousands of years ago:



And again, explaining how a giant rock that has the magic power to absorb impact crashed into something without a huge impact requires the least fan theory of anything ever to happen in fiction. It's pretty A to B

HUNDU THE BEAST GOD
Sep 14, 2007

everything is yours
https://www.theverge.com/2018/2/28/17063218/chadwick-boseman-tchalla-enemy-black-panther

quote:

“I actually am the enemy,” he says during a discussion with castmate Lupita Nyong’o and Marvel comics writer and journalist Ta-Nehisi Coates at Harlem’s Apollo Theater on Tuesday. (The comments were transcribed and reported by The Atlantic and Rolling Stone.) “It’s the enemy I’ve always known. It’s power. It’s having privilege.” He characterizes T’Challa as “born with a vibranium spoon in my mouth.”

Kurzon posted:

For me, the most remarkable thing about this film is not that they have an all-black cast but that they all speak with African accents. I think that if this movie had been made in the 1990s, they would have reworked T'Challa's backstory to make him an American guy from LA or New York who discovers he's a long-lost Wakandan prince. That way, the hero of the movie would speak in an African-American accent and spout ghetto slang to make him more "relatable". And his costume would be rubber.

Like Coming To America?

ozmunkeh
Feb 28, 2008

hey guys what is happening in this thread
Just saw this and did appreciate that the only actual villain in the entire movie was a white sith ifrikin.

Farg
Nov 19, 2013

McCloud posted:

BvS and MoS were, in no particular order, critical against the military, Silicon Valley billionaires, George Bush's foreign policy, police brutality against lower class, capitalism, the super hero fantasy itself and talking head media.



We'll agree to disagree on that then.

Is that why the main characters do nothing about any of those things and the movie elevated a billionaire who beats up mentally ill people in a power suit to a pantheon alongside godlike super beings

poptart_fairy
Apr 8, 2009

by R. Guyovich

Farg posted:

Is that why the main characters do nothing about any of those things and the movie elevated a billionaire who beats up mentally ill people in a power suit to a pantheon alongside godlike super beings

Well yeah, people have been critical of Black Panther throughout the thread.

XboxPants
Jan 30, 2006

Steven doesn't want me watching him sleep anymore.

Seedge posted:

Calling out an abuser has certainly resulted in big change so far when people do it!

Sure, this time, but there's been a far too many times where that hasn't been the case. Where people have been shamed or intimidated into shutting up. One person isn't enough for this. You need to build a movement.

And ideally, you want to build up a community movement with some momentum before you try a risky push like this. That way, win or fail, you can keep your other projects going.

But... it is just a movie, and they don't have to go the safe, boring, procedural way. They certainly could have had something in the movie where T'Challa starts a #metoo-esque movement for racism, with person after person publicly calling out racist abusers. That could have had a real impact.

Dexo
Aug 15, 2009

A city that was to live by night after the wilderness had passed. A city that was to forge out of steel and blood-red neon its own peculiar wilderness.
https://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2018/02/what-chadwick-boseman-and-lupita-nyongo-learned-about-wakanda/554474/



de bleck pentha posted:

“I actually am the enemy,” Boseman said of his character in a wide-ranging discussion with his Black Panther castmate Lupita Nyong’o and The Atlantic’s national correspondent Ta-Nehisi Coates at Harlem’s historic Apollo Theater on Tuesday. “It’s the enemy I’ve always known. It’s power. It’s having privilege.” 

Some Pinko Commie
Jun 9, 2009

CNC! Easy as 1️⃣2️⃣3️⃣!
I liked the "born with a vibranium spoon in his mouth" line.

garycoleisgod
Sep 27, 2004
Boo

Kurzon posted:

You guys should pick apart the next Spongebob movie for political undertones. That'd be awesome.

I know what you're getting at, but this is a movie about an Africa nation untouched by colonialism which features a villain who wants its resources to help overthrow the oppressors and ends with its hero doing what he thinks is right to help those his country has ignored...

I don't think people are reaching when they talk about the political context of this movie. The content of the film itself talks about it. Never having watching any Spongebob media in any form, I can't talk about it's political undertones, but if there were political undertones present in it, why wouldn't people talk about it?

quote:

“I actually am the enemy,” Boseman said of his character in a wide-ranging discussion with his Black Panther castmate Lupita Nyong’o and The Atlantic’s national correspondent Ta-Nehisi Coates at Harlem’s historic Apollo Theater on Tuesday. “It’s the enemy I’ve always known. It’s power. It’s having privilege.”

Given this, maybe the people who thought Killmonger had a point weren't just making things up then?

Goffer
Apr 4, 2007
"..."
Black Panther is Inside Out for Africans in a post colonial world. Wakanda is T'Challa's control centre, all the characters are emotions, all of them are justified and all of them are needed.

Phylodox
Mar 30, 2006



College Slice

garycoleisgod posted:

Given this, maybe the people who thought Killmonger had a point weren't just making things up then?

I don’t think anyone denied he had a point. The movie doesn’t deny he has a point. His methods are what make him a villain.

Ubik_Lives
Nov 16, 2012

Owlofcreamcheese posted:

And again, explaining how a giant rock that has the magic power to absorb impact crashed into something without a huge impact requires the least fan theory of anything ever to happen in fiction. It's pretty A to B

But, but, but the vibranium only absorbs the impact imparted to it from the earth, so the earth is still going to suffer an extinction level event from the force it receives from the vibranium! Therefore Black Panther is the worst.

Please hold while I enjoy my refined comic book about a white scientist who can make mass appear from nowhere when his mood changes.

garycoleisgod
Sep 27, 2004
Boo

Phylodox posted:

I don’t think anyone denied he had a point. The movie doesn’t deny he has a point. His methods are what make him a villain.

To me the question is more why his methods make him the villain. Is it
a) Because they extremely violent and have a large body count
or
b) Because they wouldn't work

If it's b), then T'Challa's plan at the end is wrong too, as let's face it, it's not gonna change poo poo.
If it's a), then everything just about every hero has done (except maybe Spidey, Dr Strange and Ant-Man?) in the MCU is also wrong. Did you see what Cap did at the end of Winter Soldier? He sure didn't resolve that poo poo peacefully, nor should he have.

Saying Killmonger is right, but he's just too extreme is a real life tactic that has been used against real life activists for longer than either of us has been alive, so when it appears in this film it feels like it does in real life: like a load of anti-change horseshit.

ninja edit for terrible typing

Phylodox
Mar 30, 2006



College Slice
I’m not completely anti-violence, but when you start in with the “We kill them! We kill their children! We kill everyone who sides with them!” then you lose me.

garycoleisgod
Sep 27, 2004
Boo
I understand, but there's no way to use violence nicely. You decide violence is the answer? Women, children and bystanders are gonna cop it too, "clean" violence is a myth.
If Killmonger had said "We'll kill the bad ones, but only them! We'll be careful!", then he'd just be an idiot or a liar.

Phylodox
Mar 30, 2006



College Slice

garycoleisgod posted:

I understand, but there's no way to use violence nicely. You decide violence is the answer? Women, children and bystanders are gonna cop it too, "clean" violence is a myth.
If Killmonger had said "We'll kill the bad ones, but only them! We'll be careful!", then he'd just be an idiot or a liar.

Yeah. That’s revolution. That’s why 99% of your audience isn’t going to side with Killmonger.

WeedlordGoku69
Feb 12, 2015

by Cyrano4747

garycoleisgod posted:

I understand, but there's no way to use violence nicely. You decide violence is the answer? Women, children and bystanders are gonna cop it too, "clean" violence is a myth.
If Killmonger had said "We'll kill the bad ones, but only them! We'll be careful!", then he'd just be an idiot or a liar.

the fact that women, children, and bystanders are inevitably gonna get caught in the crossfire doesn't suddenly make actively going after them cool and good.

like, there's a difference between "we're gonna use as much violence as we need to, and if innocents get caught in the crossfire that's their problem" and "BURN MAIM KILL, SLAUGHTER THEM ALL"

Dexo
Aug 15, 2009

A city that was to live by night after the wilderness had passed. A city that was to forge out of steel and blood-red neon its own peculiar wilderness.

LORD OF BOOTY posted:

the fact that women, children, and bystanders are inevitably gonna get caught in the crossfire doesn't suddenly make actively going after them cool and good.

like, there's a difference between "we're gonna use as much violence as we need to, and if innocents get caught in the crossfire that's their problem" and "BURN MAIM KILL, SLAUGHTER THEM ALL"

Also, "CHECKS AND BALANCES TO MY POWER? FUUUUCK THAT, BURN IT ALL"

YOLOsubmarine
Oct 19, 2004

When asked which Pokemon he evolved into, Kamara pauses.

"Motherfucking, what's that big dragon shit? That orange motherfucker. Charizard."

Dexo posted:

Also, "CHECKS AND BALANCES TO MY POWER? FUUUUCK THAT, BURN IT ALL"

Well, his predecessor uses the plant to stage a coup and reclaim his throne, so it seems like Erik was pretty spot on.

garycoleisgod
Sep 27, 2004
Boo
Yes,the violence would be horrible and cost untold innocent lives.
But if you want change, what are the other options? As I said, we all know the outreach center ain't gonna do poo poo.
How many died in the French Revolution? The American Civil War? WWII? Were they worth it? Whats the difference between someone killed deliberately, accidentally or by inaction?

The more damning part abiut Killmongers plan is it would fail.
1) Arm people
2)????
3) Revolution!
Not much of a plan.

Phylodox
Mar 30, 2006



College Slice

garycoleisgod posted:

But if you want change, what are the other options? As I said, we all know the outreach center ain't gonna do poo poo.

I mean...I disagree with the premise that education and improvements to local infrastructure won’t have a measurable impact. The movie takes a fundamentally optimistic viewpoint to this.

TheKingofSprings
Oct 9, 2012

garycoleisgod posted:

Yes,the violence would be horrible and cost untold innocent lives.
But if you want change, what are the other options? As I said, we all know the outreach center ain't gonna do poo poo.
How many died in the French Revolution? The American Civil War? WWII? Were they worth it? Whats the difference between someone killed deliberately, accidentally or by inaction?

The more damning part abiut Killmongers plan is it would fail.
1) Arm people
2)????
3) Revolution!
Not much of a plan.

Even with that super advanced weaponry it would still result in a ton of dead people, revolutionaries included.

And in the worst case the largest hotbeds could get bombed to kingdom come. Wakandan tech is super advanced, but there’s a point where weapons of slaughter are sufficiently advanced and deadly for the distinction to not really matter. A stealth bomber could be in and having dropped a bomb before anybody can even notice. And the second a major government found out where the weapons were coming from and that they were coming from the directive of the head of state Wakanda would get bombed to oblivion.

I get the feeling a lot of the posters in this thread are armchair revolutionaries who want significant change fast but would no way in hell be at the front of the line to die for it.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised.
Plus, they're in a world with the Avengers, Asgardians and such, super powered total war anyone? The best Wakanda could hope for is to survive.

Mazzagatti2Hotty
Jan 23, 2012

JON JONES APOLOGIST #3

garycoleisgod posted:

Yes,the violence would be horrible and cost untold innocent lives.
But if you want change, what are the other options? As I said, we all know the outreach center ain't gonna do poo poo.
How many died in the French Revolution? The American Civil War? WWII? Were they worth it? Whats the difference between someone killed deliberately, accidentally or by inaction?

The more damning part abiut Killmongers plan is it would fail.
1) Arm people
2)????
3) Revolution!
Not much of a plan.

The conflicts you listed are very different from the type Killmonger is proposing. He's taking a very American Foreign policy approach to achieving his goals (it's even blatantly called out as such in the film.)

How many examples of genuine good have come from the last 50 years of interventionism and arming insurgents to kill our enemies for us? Enough to outweigh the bad? And would you trust a man like Killmonger to know the difference?

KVeezy3
Aug 18, 2005

Airport Music for Black Folk

Phylodox posted:

I mean...I disagree with the premise that education and improvements to local infrastructure won’t have a measurable impact. The movie takes a fundamentally optimistic viewpoint to this.

We are all well aware that the film pushes a milquetoast liberal ideology. History tells us it will do gently caress all.

Wakanda is an interesting premise, but it has no interest in being specific or taking things to their logical conclusion. What is their economic system? Are they now functioning members of the capitalist global order? It's all intentionally left vague so that people will fill in whatever makes them comfortable.

KVeezy3 fucked around with this message at 04:04 on Mar 2, 2018

temple
Jul 29, 2006

I have actual skeletons in my closet
how many woke levels are you on? gulug? genocide? nuclear self-immolation?

TheKingofSprings
Oct 9, 2012
Also, which countries if any have had a successful revolution after becoming a nuclear power?

YOLOsubmarine
Oct 19, 2004

When asked which Pokemon he evolved into, Kamara pauses.

"Motherfucking, what's that big dragon shit? That orange motherfucker. Charizard."

TheKingofSprings posted:

I get the feeling a lot of the posters in this thread are armchair revolutionaries who want significant change fast but would no way in hell be at the front of the line to die for it.

You can accept that sometimes violent revolution is an unavoidable or even necessary thing without advocating for it.

Like, I’m not advocating for the violent overthrow and murder of white people cause I am one, but if the police state keeps targeting minorities for prison or extrajudicial murder I’d have a hard time arguing that minorities should just sit back and hope rich philanthropists build enough outreach centers to fix things.

It’s easy to advocate for peaceful solutions when you’re the one that’s comfortable with the status quo.

temple
Jul 29, 2006

I have actual skeletons in my closet
its easy to advocate for violent revolutions when you don't have any value for life.

XboxPants
Jan 30, 2006

Steven doesn't want me watching him sleep anymore.

garycoleisgod posted:

But if you want change, what are the other options? As I said, we all know the outreach center ain't gonna do poo poo.

This is wildly dismissive to the thousands of PoC, LGBT and labor activists that are doing organizational work right now around the world with real results. The wheel turns slowly but we do get things done, even with non-violent tactics.

YOLOsubmarine
Oct 19, 2004

When asked which Pokemon he evolved into, Kamara pauses.

"Motherfucking, what's that big dragon shit? That orange motherfucker. Charizard."

temple posted:

its easy to advocate for violent revolutions when you don't have any value for life.

I’m glad no one is dying currently.

Phylodox
Mar 30, 2006



College Slice
I don’t think the answer to any of our society’s problems is to retreat into absolute cynicism and decry anything short of violent, bloody revolution. Yes, it’s unconscionable that police have been able to murder young black men and walk away relatively unscathed, but I don’t think all out war between black men and the police force will do anything to solve anything, and will only succeed in making the world a worse place. And that’s even with comic book superweapons.

Nodosaur
Dec 23, 2014

obvious pretool

KVeezy3 posted:

We are all well aware that the film pushes a milquetoast liberal ideology. History tells us it will do gently caress all.

History ain't exactly kind to the alternative, either.

KVeezy3
Aug 18, 2005

Airport Music for Black Folk
Progress has always been a history of struggle, that will never change. It's cute that people here who reject liberalism are being painted as bloodthirsty cowards though, as if perpetuating liberalism doesn't result in violence.

Charlz Guybon
Nov 16, 2010

garycoleisgod posted:

To me the question is more why his methods make him the villain. Is it
a) Because they extremely violent and have a large body count
or
b) Because they wouldn't work

If it's b), then T'Challa's plan at the end is wrong too, as let's face it, it's not gonna change poo poo.
If it's a), then everything just about every hero has done (except maybe Spidey, Dr Strange and Ant-Man?) in the MCU is also wrong. Did you see what Cap did at the end of Winter Soldier? He sure didn't resolve that poo poo peacefully, nor should he have.

Saying Killmonger is right, but he's just too extreme is a real life tactic that has been used against real life activists for longer than either of us has been alive, so when it appears in this film it feels like it does in real life: like a load of anti-change horseshit.

ninja edit for terrible typing

It's because it's a and b. Violence can be excused if it will work to achieve a disirable goal, but not if it won't.

Cap's violence successfully stopped Hydra's coup and genocide.

As for T'Challa's plan, it's kind of vauge, but yeah it's not going to make any over arching changes. If that's the standard, then yeah he shouldn't bother. But depending on how it's carried out it could improve things on the margins, and one could argue that's better than nothing. Hard to say since we don't really know what these outreach centers will do and what other, if any economic/technical aid Wakanda plans to give.

YOLOsubmarine
Oct 19, 2004

When asked which Pokemon he evolved into, Kamara pauses.

"Motherfucking, what's that big dragon shit? That orange motherfucker. Charizard."

Nodosaur posted:

History ain't exactly kind to the alternative, either.

America has had two violent revolutions, the outcomes of which are remembered pretty fondly. Most modern countries were founded by extremists of some sort or another.

Charlz Guybon
Nov 16, 2010

YOLOsubmarine posted:

Well, his predecessor uses the plant to stage a coup and reclaim his throne, so it seems like Erik was pretty spot on.

Hey, T'Challa was technically correct. He neither died nor yielded, thus the challange that Killmonger brought forth was still ongoing and T'Challa was still the legal King. :colbert:

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Nodosaur
Dec 23, 2014

obvious pretool

YOLOsubmarine posted:

America has had two violent revolutions, the outcomes of which are remembered pretty fondly. Most modern countries were founded by extremists of some sort or another.

The revolutionaries in the second one aren't usually well regarded.

And the first one had that messy side effect of continuing the systemic conquering of the Americas and its native peoples.

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