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XboxPants posted:Supplying advanced arms to rebels - what could go wrong? I'm sure those weapons will never be stolen by the government and turned against the people they are meant to protect. You’re arguing tactical realism in a movie where an African nation goes galt’s gulch for thousands of years because it sits on a pile of magical space metal? It’s a work of fantasy. It can depict whatever it wants. It’s no more fantastical that a school in Oakland is going to jumpstart the end of systemic oppression. Phylodox posted:These are all just basically variations on Killmonger's plan. See above. We’re in the long term now. Slow and steady has not won the race. How long should people have to wait for equality before it’s too long? Also, the word “variations” is doing a lot of unearned work there. You’re basically saying that all violence is the same which doesn’t leave a lot of options open.
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Mar 2, 2018 06:01
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YOLOsubmarine posted:See above. We’re in the long term now. Slow and steady has not won the race. How long should people have to wait for equality before it’s too long? The race isn’t over! Progress has, is, and will continue to be made. Violence won’t bring it faster, it’ll just undo what’s already been accomplished. quote:Also, the word “variations” is doing a lot of unearned work there. You’re basically saying that all violence is the same which doesn’t leave a lot of options open. Almost every possibility you listed leads to the same conclusion: all out war. You think you can just shoot the bad cops and everyone else will just be “Oh, okay, they were assholes, that’s cool”? You think an armed underground resistance doesn’t eventually lead to open conflict?
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Mar 2, 2018 06:06
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Phylodox posted:The race isn’t over! Progress has, is, and will continue to be made. Violence won’t bring it faster, it’ll just undo what’s already been accomplished.  Also, the black incarceration rate is worse now than at basically any time since literal slavery. It’s about 4 times higher than it was in 1960. Is that progress? And, again, I want to reiterate that THIS IS A MOVIE. It’s a work of fantasy. It’s about a place that doesn’t exist run by people who don’t exist made wealthy by a thing that doesn’t exist. Literally anything can be made to happen because the whole society is powered by magic. And with near limitless possibilities the solution is a school to teach kids in the inner city about tech. YOLOsubmarine fucked around with this message at 06:23 on Mar 2, 2018 |
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Mar 2, 2018 06:17
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KVeezy3 posted:Progress has always been a history of struggle, that will never change. It's cute that people here who reject liberalism are being painted as bloodthirsty cowards though, as if perpetuating liberalism doesn't result in violence. Yeah, the real question is how much violence is going to (continue to) be done against humanity if the global order isn't overthrown.
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Mar 2, 2018 06:19
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Kurzon posted:You guys should pick apart the next Spongebob movie for political undertones. That'd be awesome. The first Spongebob movie is better than Black Panther
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Mar 2, 2018 06:20
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YOLOsubmarine posted:Also, the black incarceration rate is worse now than at basically any time since literal slavery. It’s about 4 times higher than it was in 1960. Is that progress? And how does encouraging black men to shoot police officers solve that? You might decrease the incarceration rate, but you’ll increase the mortality rate. Again, even with superweapons.
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Mar 2, 2018 06:21
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Phylodox posted:And how does encouraging black men to shoot police officers solve that? You might decrease the incarceration rate, but you’ll increase the mortality rate. Again, even with superweapons. So you don’t think black people should defend themselves when cops try to murder them? Also, you’ll find that the civil war greatly increased the mortality rate for many groups!
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Mar 2, 2018 06:26
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YOLOsubmarine posted:So you don’t think black people should defend themselves when cops try to murder them? How does that even work? Do you have your gun drawn any time a policeman stops you? This is the same line of thought that a lot of people use to try and put armed guards in schools and guns in teachers’ hands. quote:Also, you’ll find that the civil war greatly increased the mortality rate for many groups! Again, you’re convinced that armed conflict is inevitable. You seem to think a war is coming.
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Mar 2, 2018 06:33
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sean10mm posted:But seriously, reading the CD Marxist "vanguard" try to out-edgelord each other with how much blood they want to see flow in their imaginary revolution is genuinely comical. Do you really think you don't come across as privileged little shits who are about as convincingly proletarian as Paul Ryan at a county fair? not emptyquoting
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Mar 2, 2018 06:41
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Black Panther is yet another 'as soon as the oppressed are on top, they become worse than the oppressors' story, just like Bioshock Infinite and Far Cry 4. Or the Frost Giants. In fact, it's almost like there's a tendency to assume all revolutionaries are inherently worse than their oppressors. EDIT: I mean, it makes a very good case for revolution, but makes the in movie advocate a broken psychopath who is beyond redemption. Also, lol at 'His plan wouldn't work' in the loving Marvel universe, where someone invented an element. Things work the way the plot says they do. Snowman_McK fucked around with this message at 06:53 on Mar 2, 2018 |
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Mar 2, 2018 06:51
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Kurzon posted:Maybe the reason that the raw vibranium glows blue and is so unstable is that it is still holding in all that absorbed energy. Ah, well now we know how the current season of Agents of SHIELD happened.
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Mar 2, 2018 07:27
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Snowman_McK posted:Black Panther is yet another 'as soon as the oppressed are on top, they become worse than the oppressors' story, just like Bioshock Infinite and Far Cry 4. Or the Frost Giants. In fact, it's almost like there's a tendency to assume all revolutionaries are inherently worse than their oppressors. Have you seen what happens after most revolutions? Humans suck.
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Mar 2, 2018 07:41
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Phylodox posted:How does that even work? Do you have your gun drawn any time a policeman stops you? This is the same line of thought that a lot of people use to try and put armed guards in schools and guns in teachers’ hands. Pretend I linked the Black Panthers holding guns image again. [quote="“Phylodox”" post="“481780563”"] Again, you’re convinced that armed conflict is inevitable. You seem to think a war is coming. [/quote] Please quote where I said that. [quote="“BrianWilly”" post="“481780673”"] not emptyquoting [/quote] “What else can possibly explain my shushing my internal whispering to stay in the zone? I had to put it out of my head that Black pilots were actually going to be killed rather than intercepted (where’s technology there?), that a civil war between Black families was unfolding over aiding other Black people, and that the CIA’s shooting down of vessels carrying technology into the fight against an anti-black world order was hailed as a heroic moment in the film.” - some CD faux revolutionary, probably
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Mar 2, 2018 07:41
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honestly that would be like the one time where saying "actually there weren't any people killed there" would make sense, because wakanda is established as, uh, having drones, like the one CIA Guy is using against them but we do also see Lady Whose Name I Have Forgotten piloting one earlier in the movie so???
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Mar 2, 2018 08:28
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Phylodox posted:I mean...those all present incredibly simple solutions, too. Most of them involve killing some figurehead, after which the evil empire crumbles. The real world is a lot more complicated. You're not gonna save it with some flashy revolution. If you kill Donald Trump, they don't just automatically flip the switch to "COMMUNISM". Is that how you wanted Black Panther to handle it? I'd much rather they presented change as a slow, gradual process involving hard work and perseverence. They're movies, not documentaries. Sometimes in movies, characters and organisations stand as symbols, not literal interpretations of How to Run a Revolution. Black Panther couldn't even rise to this. Also quote:Most of them involve killing some figurehead, after which the evil empire crumbles
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Mar 2, 2018 08:36
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Phylodox posted:I don’t think the answer to any of our society’s problems is to retreat into absolute cynicism and decry anything short of violent, bloody revolution. Yes, it’s unconscionable that police have been able to murder young black men and walk away relatively unscathed, but I don’t think all out war between black men and the police force will do anything to solve anything, and will only succeed in making the world a worse place. And that’s even with comic book superweapons. T'Challa instigates a violent, bloody revolution. e: I've pointed it out - even people who don't like what Killmonger stands for will only discuss him. This is because it helps justify T'Challa without actually discussing what he does or stands for. If you only criticize the evil plan for black revolution, you don't need to talk about T'Challa starting a coup in which his fellow countrymen die. BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 08:50 on Mar 2, 2018 |
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Mar 2, 2018 08:40
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Charlz Guybon posted:Have you seen what happens after most revolutions? Humans suck. They sucked before the revolts too, which is why the revolts happened...
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Mar 2, 2018 10:03
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got any sevens posted:They sucked before the revolts too, which is why the revolts happened... You might say that the people denouncing revolution in this thread prefer a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice  e: I feel the need to point out that just last December a movie called The Last Jedi came out, and it was about heroes trying to spread violent rebellion throughout the galaxy. Strangely, no one was denouncing revolution when it came to that movie. BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 10:16 on Mar 2, 2018 |
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Mar 2, 2018 10:09
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Again people focus on "all he does is build an outreach centre" when it's clearly shown as a first step. Sorry the film didn't add half an hour of making the world a better place.
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Mar 2, 2018 10:29
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garycoleisgod posted:Yeah I suppose having a revolution in a film is pretty out there. Hey, what's this list of sci-fi films doing here? Elysium, Mad Max: Fury Road, Flash Gordon (1980), Conan the Destroyer, The Matrix Reloaded, Star Wars Episode VI: The Return of the Jedi, V for Vendetta, Snowpiercer, Demolition Man, Tank Girl, Willow, Thor: Ragnarok ? The difference is most Americans, Europeans, and Chinese people don't want their governments to be violently overthrown, and Black Panther takes place on Earth in 2018.. You can knock over Emperors and Immortan Joes all ding dong day, most people aren't going to identify those as direct allegories for their own societies (or if they do they'll identify the violence as similarly allegorical).
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Mar 2, 2018 10:35
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Seedge posted:Again people focus on "all he does is build an outreach centre" when it's clearly shown as a first step. Sorry the film didn't add half an hour of making the world a better place. 1) This is a fictional story. Everything in stories is contingent, there was nothing stopping the creators from telling a story in which the heroes genuinely improve the world instead of starting a coup. 2) The outreach centre is first step to what seems to be Wakanda becoming simply a part of the global elite, only with superficial opposition to cover the fact that they are not any different from other rich, powerful people. Dexo posted:
BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 10:57 on Mar 2, 2018 |
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Mar 2, 2018 10:47
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garycoleisgod posted:Yes,the violence would be horrible and cost untold innocent lives.
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Mar 2, 2018 12:28
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Phylodox posted:I mean...those all present incredibly simple solutions, too. Most of them involve killing some figurehead, after which the evil empire crumbles. The real world is a lot more complicated. You're not gonna save it with some flashy revolution. If you kill Donald Trump, they don't just automatically flip the switch to "COMMUNISM". Is that how you wanted Black Panther to handle it? I'd much rather they presented change as a slow, gradual process involving hard work and perseverence. The last 30 years have shown us that liberalism is a failed ideology. Clinton's lost is only a symptom of this. I know that your ideas makes you feel like you're being "realistic" and "rational", but you seem unwilling to recognize that that is how ideology functions, and that liberalism already has violence occurring, just the "normal" level so it doesn't even feel like it's happening. History shows us that genuine progress happens when a political group has a compelling vision, not this moderate incrementalism. The idea that the Civil Rights movement (Which has been pointed out in this thread, was backed by the threat of violence) was widely popular is revisionist bullshit. They were wildly unpopular, even among some blacks, who thought they were crazy to stir the pot. KVeezy3 fucked around with this message at 12:58 on Mar 2, 2018 |
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Mar 2, 2018 12:53
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the solution is to wakandize foreign black people and create a sub-culture within imperialistic countries, dissolving them from the inside out. outreach centers or spy centers, your choice.
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Mar 2, 2018 12:54
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Charlz Guybon posted:Have you seen what happens after most revolutions? Humans suck. If a cow ever got the chance...
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Mar 2, 2018 12:57
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temple posted:the solution is to wakandize foreign black people and create a sub-culture within imperialistic countries, dissolving them from the inside out. outreach centers or spy centers, your choice. Isn't that just colonialism?
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Mar 2, 2018 13:16
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:Isn't that just colonialism?
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Mar 2, 2018 13:20
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That is what colonialists did: they spread their own norms and culture, dissolving indigenous power structures. You're even calling it "wakandizing".
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Mar 2, 2018 13:27
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KVeezy3 posted:The last 30 years have shown us that liberalism is a failed ideology. Clinton's lost is only a symptom of this. I know that your ideas makes you feel like you're being "realistic" and "rational", but you seem unwilling to recognize that that is how ideology functions, and that liberalism already has violence occurring, just the "normal" level so it doesn't even feel like it's happening. What compelling vision does either killmonger or wakanda as lead by t'challa offer that could justify armed revolution? Revolution might be nice but that doesn't mean you should just support all revolutions as a concept rather than with at least some critical assessment of their values. Just correctly identifying that the current order sucks isnt enough to make you the solution. Killmonger specifically does nothing to suggest he would lead positive revolutionary change, and plenty to suggest he would be very bad. I cannot possibly cover them all but it should be mandatory to do at least some basic google research of the terms "african dictator" or "pan-african dictator" to see how many of africa's worst modern human rights abusers rose to power in the same basic way and with the same ideology as killmonger. They even share many backstory elements like being educated in the west. Wakanda proper is barely better to lead global armed revolution. They are a privileged nation that has always been complicit in the state of the world by virtue of inaction. Their political system is a monarchy. Sure they have advanced technology, but the only moral advantage they are shown to have in comparison to other privileged nations is that they don't have a history of imperialism. Suggesting they finance global insurrection is to suggest they should take that away and become imperialist too. Liberal incrementalism has failed at home, but foreign policy has been liberal interventionism: arming the "good" insurgents in foreign countries. It has been even more disastrous than domestic incrementalism, and there is nothing to suggest wakanda would do it better. Meanwhile, humanitarian aid abroad has had considerable successes.
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Mar 2, 2018 13:31
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Outreach centers will never realistically effect change! - this thread It doesn't matter how realistic armed revolution is, this is a movie with magic space rocks, they can show anything they want! - also this thread
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Mar 2, 2018 13:40
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:That is what colonialists did: they spread their own norms and culture, dissolving indigenous power structures. Mazzagatti2Hotty posted:Outreach centers will never realistically effect change! - this thread these are outreach centers funded by a incalculable wealthy party with unlimited resources. temple fucked around with this message at 13:48 on Mar 2, 2018 |
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Mar 2, 2018 13:42
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dp
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Mar 2, 2018 13:48
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:1) This is a fictional story. Everything in stories is contingent, there was nothing stopping the creators from telling a story in which the heroes genuinely improve the world instead of starting a coup. 1) How fun would a superhero movie be where they do nothing but improve the world? 2) This quote is in context to T'Challa at the start of the film, not the end.
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Mar 2, 2018 14:02
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Mazzagatti2Hotty posted:Outreach centers will never realistically effect change! - this thread People are criticizing the movie for the fact that its creators had a whacked-out sci-fi world but could not imagine something more impressive than outreach centres. This leads to the situation where people praise a movie with a fantasy African superhero utopia for its politics, while claiming that social progress should be portrayed as "a slow, gradual process involving hard work and perseverence". temple posted:I think you are glossing over fighting killing raping. Colonialism isn't "fighting killing raping". Colonialism is the subjugation and exploitation of peoples and regions by more powerful nations. Why should a despotic sci-fi monarchy be an ideal for "foreign black people"? BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 14:26 on Mar 2, 2018 |
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Mar 2, 2018 14:22
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:Colonialism isn't "fighting killing raping". Colonialism is the subjugation and exploitation of peoples and regions by more powerful nations. You're right, it's "fighting killing raping and also stealing".
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Mar 2, 2018 14:42
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T'Challah FOUGHT the rightful heir. He would have been KILLED had he not RAPED the law due to his companion STEALING sacred herbs only for use by the King. Seems to fit.
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Mar 2, 2018 14:46
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:Colonialism isn't "fighting killing raping". Colonialism is the subjugation and exploitation of peoples and regions by more powerful nations. setting up an outreach center isn't that. such a reach that i think are trying to colonize this thread. remember we are talking about outreach centers not some random political poo poo you are injecting into the conversation. temple fucked around with this message at 14:53 on Mar 2, 2018 |
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Mar 2, 2018 14:48
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:People are criticizing the movie for the fact that its creators had a whacked-out sci-fi world but could not imagine something more impressive than outreach centres. If it got more sci-fi with it then it would be in danger of suggesting that advanced technology is the cure for social ills, rather than genuine social change. That would probably appeal to a lot of silicon valley minded people but would distract from or at the very least muddy the waters on its central moral conflict between peaceful global humanitarianism and violent interventionism. It might end up like Elysium: where the movie tried to talk about economic inequality in access to medicine, but then its conclusion fails to connect with the real world because they solve everything by simply stealing the sci-fi magic instant cure-all machines. Sci-fi tech solves the problem too easy, so the depicted solution no longer relates to the real world social and structural problems the movie was trying to evoke. The only way I can think of that would work better is if they mentioned some specific functions of the outreach centres. Something like: we will organise and fund civil rights lobbying and activism through here, or legal defence and education funds. I just assumed that is what they were getting at since that is how it usually works for western/UN outreach in places like the middle east.
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Mar 2, 2018 15:05
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which is why I wished t'challa had used his un speech to call for sactions against the us and the west in general.
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Mar 2, 2018 15:06
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Hard to say what that outreach might be, though reminds me of Tony Stark's ill-defined scholarship thing. Pretty amusing to have him set up a charity mission for the poor in the United States of America. Teaching urban poor kids how to work Vibranium? Reminded of some discussion of Wakanda's living standards and culture; a Wakandan might argue that it's specifically because of their strong connections to their roots and social cohesion that they have such a high living standard. (I do like that you see different tribes, aesthetics and religions among the Wakandans) However, it seems like they've lived in relative peace and stability so long that they haven't had to develop checks and balances, and being able to challenge for the throne by combat is all well and good when you've got a family line that's the Marvel counterpart to Batman, but then you get someone with legitimate claim who's better at fighting than at ruling... I'm oddly finding comparison to The Phantom, the other African-based superhero, who has some iffy elements but was still kinda amazingly progressive, and lives and operates in a modern African country where he works with the government and helps develop infrastructure and organisation (including the Jungle Patrol, basically a wilderness police force) and otherwise doing far more for his country in tangible ways than just punching criminals. (though plenty of that too)
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Mar 2, 2018 15:10
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