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I feel like I'm thinking about things too much from an in-universe perspective... I dunno, is that so bad? Maybe it is. I'd ramble more about comparison to the Fish-Man Island saga of One Piece, but not sure how many anime dorks are in this thread to discuss it.
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Mar 3, 2018 11:46
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Inescapable Duck posted:In-character, T'challa might be sceptical of democracy given democratic countries haven't necessarily done much better than Wakanda, a monarchy, for dealing with racism and prejudice, though that delves into political questions I doubt the movies have any interest in answering. The Wakandans don't deal with racism, they are racist (towards the entire outside world). That's why it took their ruling council all of 5 minutes to go from wanting isolationism to a global empire. It's the 'black man's burden'. T'Challa is more moderate but takes the idea of justice off the table with these outreach centers. It's like saying to a kid in Oakland, you're community is a failure, but we rich outsiders know how to fix it. The problem in Oakland is definitely not the CIA (or other structures of power) to T'Challa, apparently it's black on black crime. That's what I mean by abhorrent politics. Sinding Johansson fucked around with this message at 16:12 on Mar 3, 2018 |
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Mar 3, 2018 16:07
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Erik's plan is almost the happy ending in Elysium. Everyone will be a citizen of Wakanda. This film is basically Elysium (though not nearly as beautifully shot) but now the president is the hero. Yikes.
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Mar 3, 2018 17:27
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Moon Atari posted:What compelling vision does either killmonger or wakanda as lead by t'challa offer that could justify armed revolution? I said that progress is a history of struggle, which violence/the threat of violence can play a crucial role. This was to put into historical context all the cries for moderate incrementalism as the preeminent choice of moral adults who value human lives. A criticism I received was that in rejecting liberalism, I am dismissing local activists/organizers who dedicate their lives to fighting similar causes. This is a misdirection: they are not all all similar due to their coordinates in social relations. Activists are limited by their scale/resources and are forced to take a more temperate vision. To hold a national organization to the same standards as local groups/individuals is more than a dismissal, it's an insult. People have cited the actual victories won by liberalism: the first black president, gay marriage rights, and the legalization of marijuana. But in order to properly discern how victorious we are, we must again examine how they relate to the whole, in their proper context. The ruling class have decimated unions, cut working wages & benefits, and diverted national resources for their own uses to continually widen the historical gap in income inequality. It is inevitable that this will lead to the development of extreme ideologies that use violence that moderates are so opposed to, it just might be right wing violence. People have said that the ending of Black Panther is only meant as a start, and that there's not enough time or it's too boring to get into the logistics, but they could have revealed their ideology or how their economy functions through Wakanda. We are left to examine their philanthropic approach because they have given little else to go on.
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Mar 3, 2018 17:55
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KVeezy3 posted:People have said that the ending of Black Panther is only meant as a start, and that there's not enough time or it's too boring to get into the logistics, but they could have revealed their ideology or how their economy functions through Wakanda. We are left to examine their philanthropic approach because they have given little else to go on. Even aside from the political themes of the movie, I think this is a real flaw. You never get a real sense of what Wakanda is like. I guess they dance a lot and have a mostly agrarian economy (despite all the advanced technology they supposedly have?), but aside from that it's kind of a mystery how anyone in Wakanda lives outside of the royal families. When T'Challa says he wants to protect the Wakandan way of life, it would have been good to see what that way of life even is so we get a sense of what is at stake for T'Challa and Wakanda. Why do we spend as much time in Korea as we do in Wakanda City? Even the sets seem either generic or small. There are so many streets that have like maybe two dozen people on it at once, with no vehicles or interesting characters on them at all. It's crazy too that the brand new King of Wakanda is walking around there and nobody even notices. What a missed opportunity! There's a moment right at the end of the movie where we see some graffiti on the wall in Wakanda City, near a staircase that for all I know leads nowhere. It was really striking since it's the only detail in Wakanda at all that indicates its own identity or proof of the existence of someone that is not in the Wakandan army or the royal families. There are so many movies that, even though they spend very little time in a given place, the set design and extra direction are such that you can understand the place's identity (I mean, as far as movies go, not in real life). Look at Raiders of the Lost Ark or the better James Bond movies and you can see where Black Panther goes astray. If you want to just focus on sci fi movies, any of the Star Wars are better at this. pospysyl fucked around with this message at 19:40 on Mar 3, 2018 |
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Mar 3, 2018 18:16
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killmonger's plan was going to fail and violent revolutions generally fail when there isn't a structure to replace the power vaccuum. when killmonger defeated t'challa, wakanda keep running. he didn't kill all the leaders and the citizens it was a violent transition of power of one seat. likewise, the star wars universe had the rebellion unseat the empire. the rebellion was made of the previous or local leaders so they could transition immediately into ruling without rebuilding society from the ground up. internet revolutionaries think everything will sort itself out if you just kill everyone you hate, disregarding the real disagreements already present in counterculture or regular people. a successful revolution is cemented before the first bullet is fired by establishing an alternative power structure. that structure can lead the revolution and assume power because the consent of the population is already secured. killmonger's plan would have failed the minute they won. t'challa is building a foundation for power by starting outreach centers. really, the grassroots work is slow, tiring, and expensive. that's why people advocate for a quick and dirty armed insurrection. when people complain about the us disablizing communities, they are complaining about the low level destruction of peaceful organizations that simply give philosophical resistance. if you don't believe me, go back and study the sweeping attack against all manner of organizations and leaders in the 60's and 70s. organizing a union or 3rd party is enough to bring swift punishment. we need less killmongers and more t'challas to have lasting victories. its really weird that people see a stem school as ineffective. wakanda's power doesn't come from weapons or violence. their power comes from technology and tradition. the outreach center is spreading just that. it makes sense in-universe and too many self-destructive pessimists refuse to the hard work of community building. but look things like blm, ferguson, even in my city. real power and change happened when people simply united. those victories are often over looked to promote a fight or flight politics. as we say, are you willing to die? what's stopping you from taking up arms and fighting now? temple fucked around with this message at 18:54 on Mar 3, 2018 |
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Mar 3, 2018 18:49
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Again, the movie is rhetorical. That the revolution doesn't make much sense is, intentionally or not, part of the rhetoric. No matter how evil Killmonger is or faulty his revolution is, it's still a story about black/leftist revolution being defeated by monarchy. You're arguing that the world's most powerful aristocrat teaching kids to code is like civil rights activism. Also, the revolutionaries in Star Wars are liberal slave-owners whose dysfunctional new regime is blown up. BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 20:05 on Mar 3, 2018 |
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Mar 3, 2018 19:52
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Before comparing him to civil rights leaders, is there any textual evidence at all in this film that T'Challa is antiracist? The very best you can say is he's pro-education. Being pro-education is not in itself even a progressive stance.
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Mar 3, 2018 20:15
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Sinding Johansson posted:is there any textual evidence at all in this film that T'Challa is antiracist? what the gently caress
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Mar 3, 2018 20:17
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Unmature posted:what the gently caress Should be easy to prove wrong right? The guy says conditions in Oakland are unfortunate so he builds a school. The problems in Oakland aren't because they're uneducated! Erik is the one who actually talks about justice, oppression and oppressors.
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Mar 3, 2018 20:22
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pospysyl posted:Even aside from the political themes of the movie, I think this is a real flaw. You never get a real sense of what Wakanda is like. I guess they dance a lot and have a mostly agrarian economy (despite all the advanced technology they supposedly have?), but aside from that it's kind of a mystery how anyone in Wakanda lives outside of the royal families. When T'Challa says he wants to protect the Wakandan way of life, it would have been good to see what that way of life even is so we get a sense of what is at stake for T'Challa and Wakanda. Why do we spend as much time in Korea as we do in Wakanda City? I wasn’t blown away by what I read of Ta-Nehisi Coates’ run on BP, but I do hope the sequel takes some inspiration from it in this regard. Also, it involves a revolution that leads to Wakanda becoming a constitutional monarchy, which goes a long way towards addressing one of the flaws baked into the source material.
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Mar 3, 2018 20:24
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Unmature posted:what the gently caress I think you're assuming that anyone who is not antiracist must be racist, which is a mistake. Most pro-racists aren't racists themselves, just people who don't have a personal stake in the matter and thus don't really care. Whether that describes T'Challa is up for debate. He's like a hapless boyfriend dragged to the Women's March. He's kind of into it, but it's not really his scene, you know? edit: Sinding Johansson posted:Should be easy to prove wrong right? The guy says conditions in Oakland are unfortunate so he builds a school. The problems in Oakland aren't because they're uneducated! Erik is the one who actually talks about justice, oppression and oppressors. Also worth noting that the main reason he sets it up in Oakland is to commemorate and possibly memorialize his dead uncle and cousin. pospysyl fucked around with this message at 20:40 on Mar 3, 2018 |
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Mar 3, 2018 20:24
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pospysyl posted:I think you're assuming that anyone who is not antiracist must be racist, Yes. If you're ok with racism existing you are a racist. Full stop.
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Mar 3, 2018 21:01
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On the subject of outreach centers. Building a school as your solution to the problems in Oakland is essentially saying that, going forwards, the problems there are a now a matter of personal responsibility. Obviously personal responsibility is a great thing, but it's sort of ironic that this is outreach from a rich foreigner, to children who get maybe 30 seconds of screen time. If you're going to make a film about combating racism with education, you do it like in Hidden Figures or Akeelah and the Bee. In these films we see people work to educate and elevate themselves. There's nothing like that in Black Panther. Black Panther is typical Marvel schlock with a black cast. The only marginally progressive about it is Erik (who is tragically a bit of a psychopath)
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Mar 3, 2018 21:03
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Unmature posted:Yes. If you're ok with racism existing you are a racist. Full stop. What if you're a wealthy black person who isn't politically engaged, but typically votes for Republicans? Are you a racist then?
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Mar 3, 2018 21:05
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Racism is an ideology and a system. A person can participate in these things while holding no ill will towards people of color. The focus on individual racists is misguided. The wealthy black lawyer in your example may well do more to uphold racism as I've described it than a nobody klansman in rural Alabama. Erik speaks in terms of oppressed and oppressor which is much more apt.
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Mar 3, 2018 21:13
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pospysyl posted:What if you're a wealthy black person who isn't politically engaged, but typically votes for Republicans? Are you a racist then? Yeah. And your 4chan/Jontron logic just makes you look like more of a dumbass Unmature fucked around with this message at 21:16 on Mar 3, 2018 |
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Mar 3, 2018 21:14
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Unmature posted:Yeah. And your 4chan/Jontron logic just makes you look like more of a dumbass The point is antiracism is an active position, not the absence of racial prejudice. T'Challa by your own standard is then explicitly a racist, as when confronted by Erik he refuses to comment at all on the existence of oppression.
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Mar 3, 2018 21:23
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Unmature posted:Yes. If you're ok with racism existing you are a racist. Full stop. What about someone who's largely unaware of it? I think that's sort of what's being said about T'Challa; it's less that he's in favor of or against racism, and more that he's never really experienced it the same way people in Oakland have (being a Wakandan prince-turned-king). Aside from, essentially, what he's heard from Erik and what he's seen on his visits abroad, he'd have basically no context for what the hell racism looks like in Western society.
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Mar 3, 2018 21:29
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Unmature posted:Yeah. And your 4chan/Jontron logic just makes you look like more of a dumbass What a strange line of argument! You're implying that nearly every black, brown, or Asian person that does not live in the United States is personally racist for not advocating anti-racist politics. Granted, many of those people are racist, but most aren't really in a position to be racist or anti-racist by whatever standards you're using. Race doesn't even exist in many parts of the world! (Although you could argue that the global economy, in which we all participate, is racist, but it would be difficult to argue that Black Panther has much to say about global economics.) I guess I need to ask you: what do you think anti-racism is? Is it just the passive belief that racism is bad, using the n-word is bad, discrimination is bad? Because buddy, that's not what anti-racism is. LORD OF BOOTY posted:What about someone who's largely unaware of it? I think that's sort of what's being said about T'Challa; it's less that he's in favor of or against racism, and more that he's never really experienced it the same way people in Oakland have (being a Wakandan prince-turned-king). Aside from, essentially, what he's heard from Erik and what he's seen on his visits abroad, he'd have basically no context for what the hell racism looks like in Western society. I was about to say exactly this! T'Challa experiences racism solely from an intellectual standpoint. Wakanda very specifically has had no historical connection with imperialism or race of any kind. He isn't not anti-racist because he secretly believes white supremacy is just or whatever, it's just that until the very end of the movie he believes global racism isn't his responsibility, and even at the end of the movie it's not clear what his intentions are.
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Mar 3, 2018 21:56
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I think this movie would have resonated more with the racial angle had the prologue taken place in 1950, during the Jim Crow era. In 1992, race relations were a lot better and the Civil Rights Movement had demonstrated the effectiveness of non-violent protest, so I can't imagine why N'Jobu and then his son Erik could have thought that violence was a good idea.
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Mar 3, 2018 22:20
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Kurzon posted:I think this movie would have resonated more with the racial angle had the prologue taken place in 1950, during the Jim Crow era. In 1992, race relations were a lot better and the Civil Rights Movement had demonstrated the effectiveness of non-violent protest, so I can't imagine why N'Jobu and then his son Erik could have thought that violence was a good idea. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1992_Los_Angeles_riots
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Mar 3, 2018 22:31
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Kurzon posted:I think this movie would have resonated more with the racial angle had the prologue taken place in 1950, during the Jim Crow era. In 1992, race relations were a lot better and the Civil Rights Movement had demonstrated the effectiveness of non-violent protest, so I can't imagine why N'Jobu and then his son Erik could have thought that violence was a good idea. But nonviolent protests only work if there's a violent movement alongside it.
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Mar 3, 2018 22:39
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Kurzon posted:I think this movie would have resonated more with the racial angle had the prologue taken place in 1950, during the Jim Crow era. In 1992, race relations were a lot better and the Civil Rights Movement had demonstrated the effectiveness of non-violent protest, so I can't imagine why N'Jobu and then his son Erik could have thought that violence was a good idea. The failed promises of and backlash to the civil rights movement are exactly why someone might look toward a more explicitly violent solution.
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Mar 3, 2018 23:11
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i am the bird posted:The failed promises of and backlash to the civil rights movement are exactly why someone might look toward a more explicitly violent solution. Yea, this is a horrible misapprehension of how the Civil Rights struggle played out, and IS STILL playing out.
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Mar 3, 2018 23:29
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pospysyl posted:Even aside from the political themes of the movie, I think this is a real flaw. You never get a real sense of what Wakanda is like. I guess they dance a lot and have a mostly agrarian economy (despite all the advanced technology they supposedly have?), but aside from that it's kind of a mystery how anyone in Wakanda lives outside of the royal families. When T'Challa says he wants to protect the Wakandan way of life, it would have been good to see what that way of life even is so we get a sense of what is at stake for T'Challa and Wakanda. Why do we spend as much time in Korea as we do in Wakanda City? I'm really glad you typed this, because I was starting to think I was the only one this bothered. Someone in, I think, the other thread, thought we were shown enough, that they were happy and prosperous, but that's kind of belied by the king walking among them surrounded by armed guards. Seedge posted:I think you wanted a very different film, but complaining about 40 seconds of a Marvel superhero action film not being sufficient to address the many problems of the real world is, while accurate, perhaps a little unfair. They invoked the problems themselves, then avoided them for most of the movie. The product of a very real world problem is a villain, and the film is structured in a way that never treats him any different. The possibility of speaking to Erik is never entertained, nor is the possibility of redeeming him. T'Challa's mother tries to silences him. Sinding Johansson posted:Erik's plan is almost the happy ending in Elysium. Everyone will be a citizen of Wakanda. This film is basically Elysium (though not nearly as beautifully shot) but now the president is the hero. Yikes. gently caress, I want to rewatch Elysium now. If you poke around, there's a bunch of amazing concept art for it, really worth looking at.
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Mar 4, 2018 01:21
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there’s even a news broadcast on the LA riots during the opening scene, so I hope this was some sort of joke
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Mar 4, 2018 01:41
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What about: Outreach Centers where wakanda trains oppressed blacks to murder the whites?
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Mar 4, 2018 01:46
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Kurzon posted:I think this movie would have resonated more with the racial angle had the prologue taken place in 1950, during the Jim Crow era. In 1992, race relations were a lot better and the Civil Rights Movement had demonstrated the effectiveness of non-violent protest, so I can't imagine why N'Jobu and then his son Erik could have thought that violence was a good idea. What is this bullshit lmao
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Mar 4, 2018 01:47
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I wish the black guy movie had set the parts where the black guys are mad at the white guys back before the Civil Rights act which solved racism
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Mar 4, 2018 01:49
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A Buff Gay Dude posted:I wish the black guy movie had set the parts where the black guys are mad at the white guys back before the Civil Rights act which solved racism I have the same complaint about Coogler's previous film Fruitvale Station. So unrealistic.
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Mar 4, 2018 01:51
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Kurzon posted:I think this movie would have resonated more with the racial angle had the prologue taken place in 1950, during the Jim Crow era. In 1992, race relations were a lot better and the Civil Rights Movement had demonstrated the effectiveness of non-violent protest, so I can't imagine why N'Jobu and then his son Erik could have thought that violence was a good idea. This is why Do the Right Thing didn't make sense!
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Mar 4, 2018 01:52
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the film shows many times that killing only leads to lost children. t'chaka killed his brother and t'challa spared m'baku so he could lead his people. the destruction and infighting of the real bp lead to the crips and then bloods. the black community needs its leaders. violent revolution and peaceful protest are false dichotomies. futhermore the threat of violence wasn't what underwrote the civil rights movement. it was television and human rights comparisons. malcom x advocated for going to the U.N. to seek human rights protections. the us didn't want to be seen like s. africa or an oppressor state. mlk and the like made it evident that the us was run like a banana republic. marketing was what helped show the hypocrisy and turn us policy.
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Mar 4, 2018 02:15
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edit: also this ^^^. Racism became a major foreign policy issue for the US and played a significant role in [liberal] civil rights policy/legal decisions. The necessary violence of the CRM was armed self-defense, not the threat of an uprising. Southern organizing would not have happened, or at least would not have been nearly as effective, without sufficient armed self-defense. Nonviolence was a tactic for specific instances, not a way of life. Charles Cobb, Jr., among others, have written excellent histories thereof but we can also look to folks like Robert F. Williams and the necessary violent self-defense he championed in Monroe. i am the bird fucked around with this message at 02:45 on Mar 4, 2018 |
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Mar 4, 2018 02:32
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temple posted:the film shows many times that killing only leads to lost children. t'chaka killed his brother and t'challa spared m'baku so he could lead his people. the destruction and infighting of the real bp lead to the crips and then bloods. the black community needs its leaders. violent revolution and peaceful protest are false dichotomies. futhermore the threat of violence wasn't what underwrote the civil rights movement. it was television and human rights comparisons. malcom x advocated for going to the U.N. to seek human rights protections. the us didn't want to be seen like s. africa or an oppressor state. mlk and the like made it evident that the us was run like a banana republic. marketing was what helped show the hypocrisy and turn us policy. Weird that you typed this about a film where a revolutionary black leader is stabbed in the heart. By his cousin. I mean the film starts and ends with the king of Wakanda killing a pretender who thinks more needs to be done to intervene in the world's injustices. Snowman_McK fucked around with this message at 02:59 on Mar 4, 2018 |
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Mar 4, 2018 02:53
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It’s also not entirely fair to blame the BPP for infighting and the eventual fragmentation and devolution I to tribalism when they (along with every other civil rights or black liberation group) were the targets of focused and concerted efforts by the US intelligence community to sow dissent and create rifts. Like, the FBI tried to blackmail MLK into committing suicide, and he wasn’t even the one holding a gun and getting into shootouts with the FBI.
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Mar 4, 2018 03:00
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YOLOsubmarine posted:It’s also not entirely fair to blame the BPP for infighting and the eventual fragmentation and devolution I to tribalism when they (along with every other civil rights or black liberation group) were the targets of focused and concerted efforts by the US intelligence community to sow dissent and create rifts. A reminder that the rest of Europe declared war on revolutionary France, which contributed, in large part, to military dictator taking over. That's not an argument in favour of monarchies, it's pointing out that they had a clear incentive to make this new, non monarchy fail.
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Mar 4, 2018 03:02
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Upon further reflection, Wakanda has the same politics as the magical land of Equestria from My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic.
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Mar 4, 2018 03:07
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YOLOsubmarine posted:It’s also not entirely fair to blame the BPP for infighting and the eventual fragmentation and devolution I to tribalism when they (along with every other civil rights or black liberation group) were the targets of focused and concerted efforts by the US intelligence community to sow dissent and create rifts. i acknowledged that previously. the us attacked community building, strangling it in the crib. but animosity is real. the us organization (by karenga, not united states) and the bpp did not agree on approaches. the noi and civil right movement were the same. the idea that unity exists and would exist after an armed rebellion is naive. continental africans know this all too well. even muslims have competing factions.
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Mar 4, 2018 03:52
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temple posted:i acknowledged that previously. the us attacked community building, strangling it in the crib. but animosity is real. the us organization (by karenga, not united states) and the bpp did not agree on approaches. the noi and civil right movement were the same. the idea that unity exists and would exist after an armed rebellion is naive. continental africans know this all too well. even muslims have competing factions. Even Muslims... what?
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Mar 4, 2018 03:55
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